Sainsbury's Christmas Advert

[ianw]

,,,, my own seven year son played me and reeled off some facts about our local war memorial for his little part in it all.

'Proud father' doesn't even come close...

Must have been great - but get used to it , my young adult daughters play me (for a mug) constantly!

[Guest]

"Mr Wade, did we really play football with the Germans at Christmas?"

I said that they did .....

I would genuinely be interested in source material for this confident claim to the next generation.. ...even the makers of the commercial admit there is deep controversy and admit their advert is an interpretation. The so-called advisory 'experts' from Khaki Chums (really) featured on the related clips clearly have not waded through most of the raw material. It is almost embarrassing to hear them speak. Laughable in fact. Curious to understand how history has been twisted to brand a corporate under the aegis of charity and how this educates the next generation. I am a father of four and I am genuinely interested in making sure they understand this era.. I am intrigued how you can come to this conclusion based on the available info. I need to know what I am missing. MG

[Mr Pighills]

I would genuinely be interested in source material for this confident claim to the next generation.. ...even the makers of the commercial admit there is deep controversy and admit their advert is an interpretation. The so-called advisory 'experts' from Khaki Chums (really) featured on the related clips clearly have not waded through most of the raw material. It is almost embarrassing to hear them speak. Laughable in fact. Curious to understand how history has been twisted to brand a corporate under the aegis of charity and how this educates the next generation. I am a father of four and I am genuinely interested in making sure they understand this era.. I an intrigued how you can come to this conclusion based on the available info. I need to know what I am missing. How does this happen? MG

Wow .....

[Kate Wills]

. The so-called advisory 'experts' ... clearly have not waded through most of the raw material. ...

Martin,

I have little knowledge of this event (and haven't even seen the advert itself), but your mention of "most of the raw material" seems to imply that you can identify the available source material. What omissions have the advisors made?

[Guest]

Martin,

I have little knowledge of this event (and haven't even seen the advert itself), but your mention of "most of the raw material" seems to imply that you can identify the available source material. What omissions have the advisors made?

Specifically with regards to football. 152 diaries of the BEF for starters... if one of the Khaki Chums wants to tell me where this event is mentioned I would be very interested. Particularly the units involved in their 're-enactment' for chocolate profits. Ditto the 62 battalion published histories that mention this event. Plus the 17 personal diaries in the unit dairy files - most of which give extremely detailed accounts, of the truce and none mention football with the Gemans. Doubtless they will fall back on the Daily Mail third hand reports (plus ca change), none of which are corroborated. I would be interested in understanding the new material that authors such as Brown, Seaton and Baker have missed. I respect that fact that others have different interpretations of the same 'facts', but i am really intrigued to know why the football is so easily accepted when 99% of the accounts curiously forget to record this most amazing event.. MG

[Chief_Chum]

So glad that I dropped by.

"MG",

Despite losing interest in the GWF specifically because of tedious pontificators like you, I would be delighted to hear your evidence that the Khaki Chums "clearly have not waded through most of the raw material".

"Embarrassing" to hear us speak too?

So, just to put you straight, the Khaki Chums formed the nucleus of the 165 specialist extras who portrayed the men in the ad (plenty of those interviewed were not Khaki Chums). Their role was to make sure that the uniforms, equipment and weapons handling of all the Background was as accurate as possible at all times; a job that was done to a very high standard as always which is why the Chums get asked instead of armchair keyboard experts like you.

The job of historical adviser was mine. I assume that your comments about not wading through most of the raw material was directed at me.

A few minutes research would have found plenty of quotes by me stating that football played an absolutely insignificant part in the Truce.

At the risk of highlighting your ignorance, here is a brief résumé:

I started studying the 1914 Truce in detail in the Summer of 1999, in the build up to the 85th Anniversary commemoration we held at Ploegsteert that Christmas.

At that time the only proper study was the book written by Malcolm Brown and Shirley Seaton; 'The Christmas Truce'. I met with them both and we spoke at length about many aspects of the Truce; locations, veterans accounts and mythical football.

Following the 85th anniversary I kept gathering accounts, letters, War Diaries, reports and mentions in newspaper archives. Friends would send me whatever they found.

In August 2001, already acknowledged as someone who knows a thing or two about the Truce, I was flown to Washington DC to be interviewed for an American programme on the subject.

The other interviewee was Stanley Weintraub who had almost completed his own book, 'Silent Night'. Stanley had written most of it from the far side of the Atlantic and it is not as reliable as Malcolm and Shirley's book.

After publication of Silent Night I met Stanley and his wife over Dinner in London and we spent a pleasant time discussing many aspects of the Truce.

I continued gathering accounts and appeared as an interviewee and adviser on several other Truce programmes as diverse as the Channel 5 programme of 2003, Timewatch and Blue Peter which also ran a feature about it.

On one forgettable occasion I was even asked to appear on the Richard & Judy show to talk about the 1914 Truce. I suggested they ask Malcolm Brown along too and we gave a good account of the Truce between us.

In the Green Room, waiting to go on air, I asked Malcolm about his 1983 BBC Christmas Truce programme. He spoke at length about his inspiration and the simple process of getting it made in the early 1980s.

We spoke about the veterans who appeared such as Leslie Walkington and he agreed that Ernie Williams probably made up his account of a game of football played by "hundreds" on each side.

Over the years, having built up an extensive archive it is easy to spot the fakes and fraudsters too.

Earlier this year I was able to save my old BBC Director friend, Detlef Siebert, from embarrassment by recalling one particular fraudster.

Detlef was making the BBC 'I Was There' programme, using the interviews recorded for the 1964 Great War series, but not used.

I was at work one afternoon when Detlef called, "Taff, I know you are sceptical about football taking place during the Christmas Truce, but I have found an amazingly detailed account by a British Captain which talks about a game his men played with the Germans."

Having spent so many years studying the subject I was immediately able to recall a conversation I had with Shirley Seaton in November 1999. I asked, "Would that be Captain Peter Jackson by any chance?"

"Yes it is", replied Detlef. I was then able to tell him that Jackson was a fantasist who wasn't called Peter, never rose above the dizzy heights of L/Cpl and may not even have reached the Front by Christmas 1914.

Detlef asked Chris Baker to check the records and Chris managed to find a thick file on Jackson

in the BBC archives.

Jackson had not been used for the 1964 series but nearly made it onto screen in a 1968 programme until he was rumbled by a German Truce veteran.

Chris has recently published an excellent book on the Truce which gives an accurate portrayal of the events on the British Front in December, and over Christmas, 1914.

It certainly highlights how much fighting was still going on and how irrelevant football is in the Truce story.

A few months ago UEFA flew me to Noyon for a meeting to discuss the part that football had played in the Truce.

Having laid out all the evidence it was obvious to them that football played an absolutely insignificant role in the 1914 Truce.

Apparently Mr Platini was very keen that they must follow the true story. However, it clearly wasn't what he wanted to hear so they are ignoring all true accounts and have been frantically twisting, distorting and making stuff up, before Platini unveils a new plaque to a game that the 1st Royal Warwicks didn't play against IR134 at St Yvon in a couple of weeks time.

Instead of talking nonsense about the Sainsburys ad maybe it's time serious historians looked into that example of deliberately faking history before our eyes.

I had worked with the production company who made the ad previously. The Director was very keen to be as accurate as possible although he, along with most others working on it, thought they were making a stylised version of the Truce.

To have any validity accounts need to be corroborated. BBC journalists, and I'm sure others too, would never print a story without corroboration from two sources.

The discovery in June of a letter from a German soldier of IR133 to his Mother containing a throwaway line about "playing ball with the English" corroborates the detailed account by Johannes Niemann of the same regiment.

Niemann spoke of his men playing kilted soldiers (almost certainly 2/A&SH although there is nothing from the Scots) on a frozen meadow at Frelinghien.

Two men, in the same place, at the same time, on the same day, is corroboration. Niemann's account is included in the IR133 regimental history too.

Frank Naden was serving with 1/6th Cheshire who had only recently arrived in France. The Battalion had been split up for trench training and Naden's Company was attached to 1st Norfolk.

Naden wrote home and mentioned playing a game with the Germans. The letter was published in at least two newspapers in early 1915.

His account has been widely discounted as all known 1/Nk accounts either state there was no football or that the CO wouldn't let them play.

Several months ago, long before the ad was on the horizon, I spoke to a friend who is an expert on the Norfolk Regiment and who has an extensive archive built up over many years.

With the Centenary approaching, I asked him to look in his archive for any 1/Nk Truce accounts.

I had already had one meeting with the director of the ad and, it has to be said, I was still not that keen to get involved as football was intended to be the main focus.

After a lengthy discussion football was knocked back a little and more of the other typical Truce activities were introduced.

Just before the second meeting an envelope arrived with a Norfolk postmark. The first three sheets contained copies of newspaper cuttings with accounts by 1/Nk men; Wanted to play, had no ball; CO wouldn't let us, etc.

At the top of the final sheet was a note, "I think this is what you are looking for". It was a copy of Cpl Albert Wyatt's letter, published in 1915, which ended with a few lines mentioning that he had played.

Again, two men, same place, same time, same day. Corroboration.

The discovery, after 15 years of looking, of Wyatt's account, gave me the opportunity of basing the ad firmly in accurate history.

The men are badged as 1st Norfolks and 1/6th Cheshires in a ratio of 3:1. 1/Nk were at Wulverghem where we have Wyatt and Naden in the same place at the same time.

There has been plenty of huffing and puffing about how the ad should have shown burials of the dead. However, 1/Nk had not been involved in the failed attacks of 18/19th December and, consequently, had no dead to bury.

The original ****-covering reports of each of the 1/Nk Platoon Commanders still survive. They give detailed accounts and none mention burying dead.

Apart from the three books mentioned, a handful of superficial television programmes and lightweight articles, there has never been a detailed study of the Truce; certainly nothing academic.

Many academics who commented on the ad last week criticised the lack of accuracy without knowing the facts as none of them have ever taken the trouble to study it or look for that "raw material" themselves.

Fortunately I have.

11 million YouTube views, 30+ million television and cinema views and "...at least 240 complaints to the Advertising Standards Authority".

National 'outrage' simply isn't what it used to be.

Since last Thursday night I have been inundated with messages from teachers all over the country with requests for my detailed explanation of the background to the ad and the use of corroborated primary sources.

A bookseller friend reported a 600% increase in Great War book sales by the end of last week. Even if a few of the purchasers are buying Laffin or Clark at least they are taking an interest.

Your faith in War Diaries is pitiful. They are a blunt instrument that need to be viewed in conjunction with all other available evidence.

A frank conversation with a surviving Second World War Adjutant will soon make it clear that the War Diary is to record the details of the unit at war but, just as importantly, to make sure the unit is put in the best possible light for posterity. How many mention the panic and rout after Le Cateau? "Not good potential source material for the future Regimental History, old chap..."

The reports by the 1/Nk Platoon Commanders show the immediate rush to justify why their men were milling about in No Man's Land with Germans. It was quite one thing to tell the CO that you had ordered your men to meet the Germans halfway "before they reached our trench", it would have been a very different matter to tell him that they were playing games and swapping kit, all against orders.

Hopefully this précis will give you a better idea why, when wanting to put together a reasonably accurate portrayal of a tiny part of the 1914 Christmas Truce, they asked me and the Khaki Chums to help instead of choosing an ill-informed windbag.

Perhaps you should spend less time on War Diaries and a bit longer checking your facts before spouting ill-informed nonsense about subjects you clearly know little about in future.

[hazelclark]

I had always wondered if there was any basis in fact for the football game, as the Truce itself is well documented. When I stopped to think about it,I could not recall any specific mention of actually playing football in any of the books and diaries I have read. Your explanation is therefore timely, although to be perfectly honest I didn't think it was a big deal until someone brought it up.

Thanks, although treading gently is certainly not your strong suit.

Hazel C

[Paul Reed]

Excellent reply from Taff.

[Guest]

Chief Chum

Thanks for your long response. I ask the question as I believe the OP alludes to authenticity. Your faith in the football match is apparent, but it is something I don't share. Niemann's account was written many years after the event and for that reason alone should be treated with extreme caution. The fact that men write about events does not necessarily mean these things happened. As an expert on the Great War I am sure you will be familiar with scores of accounts that don't quite fit the other known facts. Conflation and confabulation is ever present, particularly among men under extreme stress. If we were to believe everything that was written in diaries and letters relating to the Great War there would be more than a few stories that stretch the imagination.

There are other threads on the forum that debate known facts, where people given the same material come to opposite conclusions. The challenge with the football is that there are dozens of accounts that mention the intention to play football and very few that claim it happened. In the unit diaries - that rather blunt tool you discard - the 150 odd diarists appear to have been rather sharp on the 25th Dec 1914. The level of detail in some of the diaries is quite astonishing. Few appear to have any qualms about reporting in minute detail what happened, yet only one unit diarist out of the whole of the British Army mentions an alleged football match, and adds that it was hearsay. I find this aspect particularly interesting - this extraordinary event being described in fine detail yet not a single shred of evidence for a football match in the British unit war diaries. Similarly, the published histories all omit this part of the Truce with one notable exception - the Lancashire Fusiliers, written in 1949 some 35 years after the event by a man who was not there and who provides no reference for the source. It is also at odds with a Lancashire Fusilier's account who was there who describes football, but not with the Germans. Why would historians write about this event and forget this part? It seems unlikely. This makes me very skepical. When we then look at the personal accounts, a number were recycled through the press, which again should make us cautious. When accounts get passed on and reported, the chances for embellishment increase, particularly when journalists are involved. Newspaper articles also have the ability to induce ideas and false memories. As you know, the Great War is a rich source of distorted memories.

The idea is extremely attractive, and touches a number of raw emotions. As you point out it was a very small part of the truce (if it indeed happened), yet it has a disproportionately large influence on how the Truce is understood in our collective minds. The Sainsbury's advert understandably anchors on this part of the Truce and will no doubt help fix this in the minds of the British population.

To my mind there is a very high risk of conflation or confabulation with this particular event. There is also a very high risk of 'confirmation bias' - seeking fragments of information that support one's view and dismissing or ignoring evidence that does not support a view. In the case of the alleged football match there is a thundering silence from official sources, which for me raises a host of unanswered questions. I am sure we will differ in our opinions on this.

As for being ill-informed, I have bothered to read the diaries and the personal accounts as well as the published material. Brown and Seaton do not appear to have concluded that a match actually happened. I have transcribed close to 2 million words of 1914 diaries, including every battalion, regimental and Brigade diary and dozens of personal diaries covering the period. It took quite a few years and it is a searchable database, so quite useful for tracking down information. The process of transcribing and editing such a large volume of material helps build a better understanding. I have done the same with the Gallipoli diaries - a rich mine of controversy. In those diaries, including the unit diaries there are a many mentions of female snipers. Personally I don't believe there were female snipers, despite dozens of written accounts. Just because someone writes something does not mean it necessarily happened. I don't have a blind faith in the unit diaries. They too are riddled with errors and distortions. The availability of large quantities of material describing the same events as well as the later correspondence between eyewitnesses and Official Historians enables us to unpick some of the more controversial aspects of the Great War. As you doubtless know the unit diaries are often supplemented with personal accounts and narratives where witnesses can be more lucid. Reconstructing history from multiple sources that can be cross-referenced seems to provide a solid foundation so I don't share your view that the unit diaries are blunt.

I remain extremely skepical. I know you don't and I am not trying to convince you or anyone else that you should share my view. I really don't care if it happened or not, I am more interested in how historians and experts weigh the available material and how history is rewritten particularly in these commemorative years. Thank you for taking the time to expand on this. I am familiar with all you have written as I have followed the Truce with some interest. The advert for Sainsbury's is a beautiful production and you and the Khaki Chums should be applauded for your efforts and attention to detail. I am sure Sainsbury's and the Royal British Legion are utterly delighted with the response it has had.

MG

[AndrewThornton]

"If we were to believe everything that was written in diaries and letters relating to the Great War there would be more than a few stories that stretch the imagination."

Martin G - the same statement can be applied equally to War Diaries and the information (or lack of) recorded in them. I look forward to reading any book you wish to publish on the subject as you certainly have all the facts at your fingetips, and a keen insight into what actually happened, unlike us lesser mortals.

[SiegeGunner]

Excellent, indeed, and it's always reassuring to see Taff's name in the credits of a WW1 production.

I think one feels instinctively that in the conditions and circumstances of the Christmas Truce, men not knowing quite what to do and mostly not speaking each other's language would resort to some sort of game. We tend to assume that the obvious game would be football, but given the ground conditions, men wrapped up in cold-weather clothing and the possible absence of a proper ball, I've always thought that some form of handball would be more likely, perhaps played with an improvised ball. In fact, I could very easily imagine the Germans starting some sort of hand-to-hand throwing game with a bundled piece of clothing and the British starting to join in, but taking to kicking the 'ball' as soon as it went to ground, with the whole event rapidly becoming a mixed melee.

Did the German letter mentioning 'playing ball with the English' use the word 'Fussball', Taff?

[Guest]

"If we were to believe everything that was written in diaries and letters relating to the Great War there would be more than a few stories that stretch the imagination."

Martin G - the same statement can be applied equally to War Diaries and the information (or lack of) recorded in them. I look forward to reading any book you wish to publish on the subject as you certainly have all the facts at your fingetips, and a keen insight into what actually happened, unlike us lesser mortals.

I agree, and if you read my post carefully you will see I mention this. The biggest difference is that the unit diaries and their related narratives and correspondence enable lots of cross-referencing. I have written a fair amount using diary accounts to expose some gross exaggeration by unit diarists and authors of published histories. It is no secret that the unit diaries contain errors. The challenge is to establish fact from fiction, which is a lot easier the more sources one has. MG

[David Filsell]

So. A mystery in an enigma. And all in an advert for a supermarket at Christmas. All quite fascinating but frankly my dears I don't give a damn about accuracy, football or no football, cap badges or uniforms. You cannot polish the proverbial or make bad taste better by making it technically accurate.

[paulgranger]

Well, it's certainly caused a lot of discussion. Is it time to call a truce about the Truce? Now, where's that thread about Kitchener's poster, myth or reality?

[John_Hartley]

Taff

I can add some more pointers about 6th Cheshires (which I've mentioned on another thread).

CSM Bob Morton was interviewed extensively by David Kelsall for his booklet "Stockport Lads Together". Kelsall paraphrases Morton's account stating a kick-about is played with a small ball. Fully accept that this interview was many years after the event but I've examined much of Morton's contribution to the book and it appears historically accurate. I regard him as a credible witness, even at the distance of time, and have no real reason to discount this particular aspect of his recollections.

I have, very recently, come across an online newspaper article from 2003, which refers to the Regimental Museum holding the diary of Lt Brockbank. There is mention of a small ball being produced. That has some significance as the size of the ball appears to agree with Morton's account. It may also have signifciance that, as far as I have so far established, Brockbank was serving with the company attached to the Norfolk's. It will be into next year before I have a chance to access the diary for general research I'm undertaking into 6/Cheshire. Until then, I cannot be sure if the diary is a "real diary" or a later account - my assumption is that it's the former. I suppose the "small ball" makes some sense - would you take a full sized football into the trenches?

By the by, whilst CSM (later Lt Col) Naden's letter also mentions football, the wording is somewhat vague. Whilst it's obviously supportive of football being played in the Cheshires' sector, it would be open to interpretation that he was recounting what he had heard of iot being played elsewhere. I'll be researching the Stockport papers to see if there is anything to help support his account.

John

[SiegeGunner]

The accounts of 'a small ball' are very interesting, John, as a handball is smaller than a regulation football. So maybe the Germans produced a handball and started chucking it around between them, it went to ground, the Brits started booting it, the Germans shrugged .... and joined in a kick-about ...

[NigelS]

... I suppose the "small ball" makes some sense - would you take a full sized football into the trenches?

Not during the Christmas truce, but there's that said to have been used by the 'Footballer of Loos' (scroll to approx. 12:37) which featured in an edition of the Antiques Road Show recently, and also that of the 'East Surrey Regiment’s ‘football’ charge July 1st 1916' both of which, although I'm no expert as far a football is concerned, appear to me to be standard sized balls.

NigelS

[SiegeGunner]

Was the German air force around at the time? If so, perhaps the small balls were Goering's ...

[Andy Wade]

I would genuinely be interested in source material for this confident claim to the next generation.. ...even the makers of the commercial admit there is deep controversy and admit their advert is an interpretation. The so-called advisory 'experts' from Khaki Chums (really) featured on the related clips clearly have not waded through most of the raw material. It is almost embarrassing to hear them speak. Laughable in fact. Curious to understand how history has been twisted to brand a corporate under the aegis of charity and how this educates the next generation. I am a father of four and I am genuinely interested in making sure they understand this era.. I am intrigued how you can come to this conclusion based on the available info. I need to know what I am missing. MG

Some interesting responses...

A proper football match with jumpers for goalposts? I doubt it was as involved as that and I didn't infer that it was.

A kick around with something resembling a ball? Quite likely in my opinion, which is all it is. Just like lads in the street playing with a cabbage or playing 'Kick-Can'. It has a ring of truth to it.

Incidentally playing football in the street here in Keighley at the time would have got you hauled up before the courts.

I think the truce happened and that the advert portrayed it reasonably, without making it into something that it wasn't. There's nobody left who was there to say either way.

War diaries are a pointless reference for any event such as this and if you've read so many you would understand clearly why that is. I don't understand why you've referred to them because they are as useful for this as a relying on a rumour handed down over the years.

All we have, to do any of our research, is the diaries (official and personal) and what other official and informal records are left after 100 years. We are all playing catch up, but I'm not going to be so arrogant and dismissive of any possible story simply because there's no 'incontrovertible proof'. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

The story came from somewhere and maybe it's been passed down through family anecdotes. Could it really be that one person made it up 100 years ago and we've all been fooled by it all these years?

If I teach my three children that it happened and you teach your four children that it didn't, who is to say who's correct if neither of us actually has any proof?

Reading insults towards other forum members is the reason I took my leave of this place. Some people seem to take themselves far too seriously.

[Andy Wade]

Not during the Christmas truce, but there's that said to have been used by the 'Footballer of Loos' (scroll to approx. 12:37) which featured in an edition of the Antiques Road Show recently, and also that of the 'East Surrey Regiment’s ‘football’ charge July 1st 1916' both of which, although I'm no expert as far a football is concerned, appear to me to be standard sized balls.

NigelS

Clearly footballs were used by the soldiers then. I'd heard of these two stories before. And somewhere in my distant memory I seem to recall hearing about an officer who purchased three or four footballs whilst on leave and handed them out to boost morale.

I've also seen local evidence of just how many professional and amateur footballers had enlisted and the effects that this had on the minor football leagues, with some clubs ceasing to exist at that point as there were very few players left to form a decent team. Would these lads have passed up the chance for a kick about? Make your own mind up about that...

[CarylW]

An excellent post Taff. Respect! Answered the OP too.

Where were all the outraged historians, and critics I wonder when we were complaining about the innacuracy of the script, the colour of the nurses uniforms and the gross misrepresentation of the nursing services by the writer of The Crimson Field in the thread about that BBC programme? Historical advisers were not listened to at that time. Not many of those now outraged by the Sainsbury's ad seemed to be bothered by that and how many times were we told within that thread 'it's just a drama' and to accept it for what it was. Very odd.

Did the BBC make any profit from selling The Crimson Field to TV channels across the globe?

Our local Sainsbury's keeps selling out of the chocolate. I haven't managed to buy one bar yet!

I wonder how much the total donation from Sainsbury's to the RBL from the sales of the chocolate will be?

[Ron da Valli]

Was the German air force around at the time? If so, perhaps the small balls were Goering's ...

They could have been mistaken for Himmler's...

[Kitty VAD]

If I might add my two pennorth, 'war profiteering'? Event Coates the thread merchant used the war to advertise to women.

We're all entitled to an opinion but there's a rather snide tone to some of the comments that really aren't necessary.

[better ole]

Page 16 - heading towards a 'Classic thread' and I have still not seen the 'Advert' on the television? About a thousand channels +1 etc to choose from but the ad. has not been shown on one during my viewing times or amongst our recorded programmes.

[Andy Wade]

Profiteering is commonplace. Most of the adverts in our local newspaper used the war in some way to increase sales, here are some common examples from March 1915: