funfly Posted 3 September , 2013 Author Share Posted 3 September , 2013 Peter, I can't resist adding that the full details about how wrong James Taylor (and Nick Hiley in 1997) are is well documented in our book: We show documented references and images of the poster around the UK, and we dispute the argument that written and verbal references to it are all subject to 'memory lapses' by the people concerned, this sounds a bit patronising to me and does no credit to the soldiers who recounted these tales. See the book at http://thekitchenerposter.co.uk/ Martyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Doyle Posted 3 September , 2013 Share Posted 3 September , 2013 And of course here is a bit if the poster distributed in 1915 which does have the words (it's also in the IWM).... James Taylor is, unfortunately, wrong. This poster is the one included in my 100 Objects book, I know it well, and have handled an original. The Telegraph article hinges on the 'fact' that the 'poster as we perceive it' did not exist, which is odd. This one certainly did, and the image is credited to the London Opinion, though the new book suggests that this version might be the product of Hassall. so be it. But it did exist! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Doyle Posted 3 September , 2013 Share Posted 3 September , 2013 Downloaded your book, Martyn, so looking forward to reading it! Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funfly Posted 5 September , 2013 Author Share Posted 5 September , 2013 Peter, will you be at James Taylor's book launch on Saturday at the Army Museum? - if you are may see you there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesMSTaylor Posted 5 September , 2013 Share Posted 5 September , 2013 Hopefully see you both there. The David Allen and Sons poster is a fascinating one. It bears no official PRC number and was certainly produced on the back of the popular success of Leete's cartoon cover of London Opinion of 5 September 1914 that combines the magic formula of pared down graphic design featuring the finger pointing Kitchener with those four memorable words (a design signed by Leete). I acknowledge and illustrate the poster in my book. At present I see no evidence at all of the mass appeal and widespread distribution of this unofficial poster (that is not signed by Leete) across Britain or parts of the British Empire in any written or photographic form. This poster to my mind and eye appears over-blown and actually poorly designed in that there is too much textual information in relation to the pictorial graphics. It's a muddle and lacks the clarity of the original and also the BRITONS variant. But sands shift and I await the new material. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesMSTaylor Posted 6 September , 2013 Share Posted 6 September , 2013 Very late last night and I know Martyn is coming to the event so hopefully if Peter comes what I meant to say was "it would be good to see you both there" What I have attempted to stress all along and reveal in my publication is that the Leete designs - BRITONS and the David Allen and Sons variant are not part of the official Parliamentary Recruiting Committee. According to PRC official records they produced more than 12 million recruitment posters of 164 designs with each of their designs bearing a unique number from 1 -164. Cate Haste argued in th 1970s that the BRITONS poster was first official poster of the war but instead that honour goes to a letterpress poster utilising part of Horatio Nelson's celebrated Trafalagar signal to implore men to join the army. Prepared in September with some believed to have distributed in that month the main launch of that poster was in October 1914 - a nice anniversary touch Personally I think that the subect of privately printed versus state produced posters is a fascinating one. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Doyle Posted 6 September , 2013 Share Posted 6 September , 2013 Sadly, I can't make it on Saturday due to other commitments, which is disappointing. I have enjoyed reading both books on the topic by James and Martyn – as well as engaging in a lively (but good humoured) discussion with the Daily Telegraph journalist regarding his article. As this discussion demonstrates – away from press-induced hyperbole – the real question is not the 'existence' of a poster (which has now turned it into an 'urban myth') - but rather how widespread the two versions (perhaps three, as this thread has demonstrated) were. Summarising, we have photographic evidence for the 'Britons' poster across the UK - from N Ireland to Cheshire at least - but we don't have much for the 'Flags' poster (which, though not signed by Leete, still carries and acknowledgment to London Opinion). Perhaps through the GWF, it would be good to see if other images exist! Good luck James at your talk. (incidentally, I'll be talking briefly about the Flags poster myself at the History Press's launch of its Great War offerings next week - as it is one of my '100 Objects of the First World War) Best wishes Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesMSTaylor Posted 6 September , 2013 Share Posted 6 September , 2013 Hi Peter, Many thanks Peter and all the best with yours. Next week I will be heading towards Australia (on a voluntary basis - not deported yet!) My overaching aim has been to engage many more people in art and design of the WWI. You are right - there is more evidence out there. If only we had the resources to scour through all the local papers through Britain and further afield and examine photographic and picture postcard collections in cities and towns than a fuller and more rounded picture would emerge. I have tackled a large chunk of Bournemouth's papers - the two main ones - notably the fascinating Bournemouth Graphic. No pictures or mention at all of any pointy finger posters have yet emerged but other PRC posters are certainly featured. London Opinion was sold tin Bournemouth here and I have seen promotional posters for the magazine withion photographs during the war years so of course that is a source of influence. Good luck with yours. Regards James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Doyle Posted 6 September , 2013 Share Posted 6 September , 2013 Thanks James Good luck in Australia. Interesting tack - might be worth trying that out myself. All the best Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funfly Posted 6 September , 2013 Author Share Posted 6 September , 2013 I must say that I consider the 'was it or wasn't it' argument a bit of a red herring. Good press but that's about it - in fact the press that James got did little justice to his book in my opinion. Points have been made (and remade) about how many people actually saw the poster in terms of numbers but is it actually worth arguing about? James' book and my own both refer to this but also contain a lot of far more interesting material that will be invaluable to people interested in the subject. This single poster has given many of us the opportunity to obtain and to offer others an insight into the events surrounding the Great War and how poster design has evolved in general. As a graphic designer my fascination is in the image and the message and how they have become ingrained into our memories. It has allowed us to explore the evolution of poster design and look at what works and what doesn't. We have been able to look at public perception of advertising in the early part of the century and how attitudes have changed over the years. We have realised the lot of women at the turn of the century and how the war changed the perception of their gender by society and particularly by women themselves. We have been able to visualise the horrors, maybe the stupidity, of this type of war and maybe reflect what we should be considering in the light of the current Middle East situation. All this, and more, because of a drawing made, it has been said in a few minutes, by an artist in 1914. So maybe gents, we should accept that there is a question over the actual number of people who saw the poster and now give this argument a rest - lots of more interesting things to discuss about this iconic image and these demanding words. Martyn http://www.kitchenerposter.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 7 September , 2013 Share Posted 7 September , 2013 The legend lives on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funfly Posted 8 September , 2013 Author Share Posted 8 September , 2013 Well the launch of James' book was at the Army Museum yesterday and despite not a massive attendance the day went well and there were very interesting talks about war posters in general. I had the pleasure of having a discussion with Lady Kenya Tatton-Brown (a 'Lady no less!) whose maiden name was Kitchener, descendent of our 'own' Kitchener of course. This lady, although not of young years, certainly had all her marbles and was interesting to talk to. She had some very interesting observations about the great man certainly in the light of the fact that most of the people that wrote or commented about him painted this picture of a very remote and, quite frankly, not very likeable person. She has in her possession written diaries by Kitchener's nieces offering glimpses of how he was within his own family surroundings and they paint a very different picture of him viewed from the family perspective, there are also observations about some early relationships with members of the opposite sex, all of which is totally counter to the rumours about the man following his demise. This information has never been revealed before and Lady Kenya Tatton-Brown has given permission for it to be used in our book. All in all it's a bit of a scoop. Getting back to our 'was it or wasn't it' discussion, both James in his current book and Nicholas Hiley before him had added weight to their arguments by claiming that very few of 'our' Kitchener posters exist today whereas many of the others do. Paul Rennie, Head of Context in Graphic Design at Central St Martins, made a valid contribution to the debate, as a specialist poster collector he remarked that among the many copies of recruiting posters in various collections he had seen none that were at any time of their life on public display - virtually all were in pristine condition. When the poster campaign fizzled out the government had thousands of unused posters on their hands, many were destroyed, many were sent overseas and many were circulated to schools in this country. Any claim therefore about a particular poster's popularity based on the number of remaining copies today is therefore invalid. Good point methinks. Overall a good day out, while James and I will continue to have different views on some things and we engage in good heated banter, he is a really nice bloke and his book is a good read - I would recommend it to anyone interested in poster design. There are major differences between James' book and ours in the fact that we have not simply concentrated on poster evolution but have used the poster as a fulcrum to comment of social events that surrounded and shaped the life of the poster and in doing so I hope we have appealed to a wider audience. Good day out and thanks to James and his publisher for organising it. Wonder if the National Stud got permission from the IWM to use the image? my own permissions cost me £££, I wonder if it was worth while bothering, no one else seems to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Doyle Posted 8 September , 2013 Share Posted 8 September , 2013 Pity I missed it, and thanks to Martyn for his report of proceedings. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesMSTaylor Posted 9 September , 2013 Share Posted 9 September , 2013 Hi Martyn and all, A big thank you to David Bownes fand the National Army Museum or arranging the event on Saturday. I also place on record here what you thread followers already know that Martyn is an extremely affable fellow and would I have no doubt make a memorable speaker on posters of WWI. Any bookers out there? It is always difficult to fully enjoy a conference when you are presenting but as Martyn has reported we had a select turnout and a rewarding day with a fascinating exchange of views at NAM. Paul makes astute points about posters although I am not fully convinced with regard to the point made above. I'll be off soon for two months touring and working in Vietman, Cambodia, Australia and New Zealand so this is my last chance for a while to say again thank you for being such a sensible forum.Peter you should certainly head off to Oz as there are excellent work opportunities. Martyn, Peter, Michael and all... our paths may well cross again perhaps in a pub.... Best. James I need spell checker - apologies....J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelBully Posted 9 September , 2013 Share Posted 9 September , 2013 Good luck with your travels James and hope that you will keep in touch with GWF in the future, Yes a pub discussion re; Kitchener sounds a great idea. Sorry I had other commitments and missed the talk at the NAM. Martyn, Yes also thanks from me for reporting back on the event. I am sure Lady Kenya Tatton-Brown has been interviewed a couple of years ago on a radio four programme I am intrigued to see how Kitchener will be treated during the 2014-2018 commemoration. One of the reasons I find him such a fascinating figure is due to the fact that his reputation seems to have been in severe decline as from the late 1920's. The 'poster ' debate and the books might generate some more interest in the contribution he made in mobilising Britain and the Empire to fight in the Great War. Regards Michael Bully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funfly Posted 12 September , 2013 Author Share Posted 12 September , 2013 All gone very quiet in this forum but I will have some very interesting news to be released this weekend. Martyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eairicbloodaxe Posted 14 September , 2013 Share Posted 14 September , 2013 Breath bated... Regards Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funfly Posted 14 September , 2013 Author Share Posted 14 September , 2013 Against all financial advice, I have decided to bring out a printed version. Book launch at the Nantwich Bookshop on Saturday 26th. October with all the trumpets and trimmings. How a 1914 Chester photograph helped to solve one of the controversial mysteries of the famous 'Your Country Needs You' poster. More soon. Martyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funfly Posted 14 September , 2013 Author Share Posted 14 September , 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scalyback Posted 14 September , 2013 Share Posted 14 September , 2013 Congratulations sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelBully Posted 15 September , 2013 Share Posted 15 September , 2013 Excellent news Martyn. As mentioned before, I'm sure that in the long run, especially when it comes to getting the book catalogued in The British Library and other esteemed research places, a printed version is far better. I'm going to treat myself a printed version as well and do keep us updated. Regards Michael Bully Against all financial advice, I have decided to bring out a printed version. Book launch at the Nantwich Bookshop on Saturday 26th. October with all the trumpets and trimmings. How a 1914 Chester photograph helped to solve one of the controversial mysteries of the famous 'Your Country Needs You' poster. More soon. Martyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funfly Posted 15 September , 2013 Author Share Posted 15 September , 2013 The book has a registered ISBN so the libraries will be contacting me for their free copies as they did last time. I was naive enough to send them all one but I think that I will ignore most as I am sure they are just 'chancers' and not really entitled to a free book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clive_hughes Posted 15 September , 2013 Share Posted 15 September , 2013 Unless the rules have changed, only the British Library can legally expect to have a copy without even asking. The five legal others - University Libraries for Oxford and Cambridge; National Libraries of Scotland, Ireland and Wales - are entitled to a volume but you can wait until they ask for it! Anyone else is at your personal discretion! Nantwich Bookshop as in 46 High Street? It's just possible I might be able to make it, so what time are you launching as it were? Clive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funfly Posted 15 September , 2013 Author Share Posted 15 September , 2013 Clive, it will be an all day thing. We hope to make a bit of a show with it as the 11/11 is coming up and the anniversary of WW1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eairicbloodaxe Posted 15 September , 2013 Share Posted 15 September , 2013 Is it available by mail order too? Regards Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now