Your Country Needs You

[GRANVILLE]

Thank goodness for that. Well done that man!

[funfly]

"The face of Kitchener with his pointing finger was to be seen everywhere"

[Seany]

Thank goodness for that. Well done that man!

****** - I've been looking everywhere and they turn up ten minutes down the road - well done

[MichaelBully]

In replying to David in post #117 : Yes sounds like a good opportunity to look at the circumstances surrounding Kitchener's death , perhaps a previous Kitchener or HMS Hampshire thread could be revived?

My particular line of research is more to do with the myths that appeared surrounding Lord Kitchener so really pleased to hear that two books re. that poster are going to be published before the year is over.

Really got me thinking how much visual imagery would most of the population be exposed to a century ago? Now we are overloaded with information and imagery.

Kitchener became one of the most recognisable figures of his time. Quite curious to see whether people could already recognise him from newspapers ( in the absence of other visual media) before the poster campaign. Were there already mass circulation pictures of him due to his previous victories in the Sudan and The Cape?

Regards ,

Michael Bully

[Khaki]

Hello Michael,

I have a number of KoK postcards some of which go back to when he was a youthful looking soldier, although I am unsure of the publication date I do think that his image was well known to the public long before the Great War poster image. The publicity and adoration that today is thrown at athletes and 'celebrities' was totally the preserve of the Royal Family, Admirals and Generals of the day. (In my opinion)

regards

khaki

[Seany]

"The face of Kitchener with his pointing finger was to be seen everywhere"

Well to be fair there are still only a couple of them on display. I wonder if Michael has it about right and its a difference in scale between then and now. Today we would be subject to a multimedia campaign and the image would be almost quite literally everywhere whereas by 1914 standards a man of the time would consider the hree or four posters at Chester castle to reflect a ubiquitous use of the image

[GRANVILLE]

Well to be fair there are still only a couple of them on display. I wonder if Michael has it about right and its a difference in scale between then and now. Today we would be subject to a multimedia campaign and the image would be almost quite literally everywhere whereas by 1914 standards a man of the time would consider the hree or four posters at Chester castle to reflect a ubiquitous use of the image

I had a similar thought process when I first saw that the photo had been found, but I think the main point is that clearly the posters were produced in the format being sought and they were made use of, albeit this appears (so far) to be the only surviving photographic example! The wider question of why it is photos in which this particular poster appears are apparently so very thin on the ground will probably remain unanswered. David

[GRANVILLE]

Before, and during the war, one of the most popular ways of advertising and getting a message out to the country was via cigarette cards. Again, I'm prepared to be corrected on this one, but once again, I can't find any cigarette card image of Kitchener with his pointing finger, which considering the power of the medium is yet another surprise to me. His image does appear in many other cards, many going back into his early career, but none that I can find, using his face as a specific recruiting tool. On the other hand, my searching turns up this placard in which it is clear it's the King making the appeal. David

[Khaki]

For the benefit of us 'interested parties' does the building/entrance shown in post #126 still exist?

thanks

khaki

[johnboy]

Is there a date for the Chester pic?

[funfly]

For the benefit of us 'interested parties' does the building/entrance shown in post #126 still exist?

You would soon find out if you were hauled before Chester Crown Court

[Dragon]

For the benefit of us 'interested parties' does the building/entrance shown in post #126 still exist?

Yes. It's a gateway to the newer part of Chester Castle. The Crown Court and some of the offices of former Cheshire County Council are there. Visitors to Chester who park at the Castle go through that entrance and pay there. The Cheshire Military Museum is across the courtyard.

Edit. Image online here: http://www.panoramio.../photo/81620960

Gwyn

[funfly]

And it probably all started ten years before with this ciggi advert (apologies to those who have seen this in the previous forum)

Mart

[Dragon]

Do you think Cheshire Military Museum would have any pictures like the one above? It's literally on their patch.

It also throws doubt on the supposition that it's unlikely that there would be recruiting posters on premises used by people who had already joined in one form or another. The castle square was definitely used by the Cheshire Regiment.

[funfly]

In 1997 Nicholas Hiley wrote an article in the IWM Review ‘Kitchener Wants You and Daddy what did YOU do in the Great War?: the myth of British recruiting posters’ where he laid out a case for his argument that the Kitchener poster, with any text, was on very limited view in the UK and, he claimed, it was only after the IWM purchased (or obtained) the original Leete artwork that the poster gained popularity because the IWM used the image in its own publicity.

In 2010 I interviewed Richard Slocombe who is a senior curator of the IWM and he gave me the same story.

1. The IWM has been unable to show any confirmation that they used the design in any of their publication material following WW1.

2. The poster design was immediately copied elsewhere, most well known the Uncle Sam poster in the US but also by European countries, so this does give every indication that the poster was pretty well known in 1914-15.

3. Solely through this forum, we have uncovered a wealth of information indicating that the poster was indeed well 'plastered'.

This forum has also been instrumental in uncovering actual and authenticable photographic evidence showing it in place, not just one or two copies but in quantities - a practice that they seems to use with many of the recruiting posters.

It is obvious that photographs of WW1 recruiting posters are pretty rare - after all would you go out and take pictures of walls covered in posters, especially if you had to prepare plates and develop the film? In this day of digital cameras people tend to forget the length photographers had to go to in order to get photographs in the early 1900s.

[funfly]

A hypothesis;

Whether they realised it or not at the time, the practice of pasting up multiple copies of a poster acts as a reinforcer of the message.

We may muse that multiple images of a face are more powerful that multiple images of anything else, hence the impression of the Kitchener face remains after the war not necessarily because there were lots of posters but because of the manner the image was presented.

This technique was ably used by Andy Warhol some years later.

[Pighills]

Great thread. A very interesting read and very informative. Thank you.

[Khaki]

Thank you Gwyn,

Glad to see another building that has survived the years, It is unlikely that I will get the opportunity to visit this site so it is great to see the 'then and now' images.

khaki

[Kath]

Well to be fair there are still only a couple of them on display.

I can see three!

Kath.

[johnboy]

Even with the Chester pic I still find it strange at the lack of pics. Most pics of people are normally soldiers in studios or at HQ. No problem with the poster not being shown in those ,but general scenes of the time, High Streets town centres etc show none. Not even Bill Stickers Will Be prosecuted! I would have expected to have seen some on the outside of recruiting centres.

[funfly]

My Warhol theory continues...

How could you not be impressed by this if it passed you by? This one outside of Chester Station.

I have, of course, added the colour pictures but they are all over identical B & W posters. We tend to forget at times just how vivacious these colours were.

7 of 'our' posters here..again at Chester, this picture was shown before but what a difference colour makes.

Edited 6 August , 2013 by funfly

[robigunner88]

Just watching Western Front - Feeding the front, and there's an interview with a soldier who mentions how the Kitchener poster persuaded him to sign up. Although I am not sure if he's been quoted already on this thread.

Watch from around 08 mins 30.

[MichaelBully]

Interesting. I have heard of postcards being circulated of certain figures, then there would be newspapers which could also circulate pictures of famous people, so perhaps by 1914 Lord Kitchener would be a recognisable 'face' as it were.

Well yes as the Great War progressed Lord Kitchener gained even more of a celebratory status. I recall reading about a visit Kitchener made to the Royal Pavillion in 1915- to visit the Indian Soldiers in hospital there- and crowds gathered just to catch a glimpse of him at different entrances to the building.

Regards

Michael Bully

Hello Michael,

I have a number of KoK postcards some of which go back to when he was a youthful looking soldier, although I am unsure of the publication date I do think that his image was well known to the public long before the Great War poster image. The publicity and adoration that today is thrown at athletes and 'celebrities' was totally the preserve of the Royal Family, Admirals and Generals of the day. (In my opinion)

regards

khaki

[MichaelBully]

Very important point. Again we need to be wary of comparisons with today when so many people are out taking photographs on a more casual basis.

I remember the recent bin strike in this area and one couldn't move for people taking photos of piles of rubbish ! People wanted to record what was going in their environment but a century ago, who indeed would being taking photographs of posters? Taking photographs of queues outside recruiting offices would be more important.

Regards

Michael Bully

Re poster 140 Martyn wrote

<<It is obvious that photographs of WW1 recruiting posters are pretty rare - after all would you go out and take pictures of walls covered in posters, especially if you had to prepare plates and develop the film? In this day of digital cameras people tend to forget the length photographers had to go to in order to get photographs in the early 1900s.>>

[Indefatigable]

I think that by 1914 the public would have been well aware of who Lord Kitchener was and what he looked like. I base this assumption on a quick skim through my cigarette card collection of some of the cards issued by Wills between 1900 to 1905. His image appeared in at least three different sets and 1 booklet. Two of the sets were issued on the Boer War as well as the booklet and the other in a series of sets of cartoons from the issues of Vanity Fair.