Your Country Needs You

[funfly]

One of the facts we address in our book is that the image we have of Kitchener today is based on the poster.

In fact the poster was from a photo taken many years before and even then Alfred Leete removed the 'squint' he had in his eyes, squared the face off a bit and enhanced the moustache. If you look at a photograph of Kitchener taken in 1916 he was thinner and much older looking (obviously).

I have made a comparison making up a poster using the same photograph that Leete copied but without altering it. The lack of power in 'my' version compared to the Leete version is obvious.

Kitchener did not look like the poster, Kitchener looked like his photo.

In 1914 there were quite a number of posters using a real copy of a Kitchener photograph so it's fair to assume that people at the time would have known exactly what he did look like, unlike most today. (I don't include our motley lot here as we all know better )

[kenf48]

A bit off topic to this fascinating thread but I went to my doctor's surgery (or if you prefer health centre) this evening and plastered all over the waiting room was downloaded facsimiles of the poster exhorting folk to join the patient participation group (whatever that is).

Even a hundred years on it seems just the portrait is enough to send the message, pretty powerful art - or a cliche?

Ken

[daggers]

The poster has just appeared in a trailer for some future programme on Sky tv. I am currently watching cricket on SS2, and the trailer was shown between overs.

[MichaelBully]

Thanks, I had overlooked cigarette cards. It's hard to imagine a world without TV, and all the other visual media, and with very little film but pictures of famous figures would still have got circulated in a society with mass printing. Regards, Michael

I think that by 1914 the public would have been well aware of who Lord Kitchener was and what he looked like. I base this assumption on a quick skim through my cigarette card collection of some of the cards issued by Wills between 1900 to 1905. His image appeared in at least three different sets and 1 booklet. Two of the sets were issued on the Boer War as well as the booklet and the other in a series of sets of cartoons from the issues of Vanity Fair.

[MichaelBully]

That's why I am enjoying this thread so much, as fascinated how Lord Kitchener became something other than his existence as a historical figure. The discrepancy between the photo and the poster says a great deal.

I find today if I mention my interest in Lord Kitchener to people who are not particularly interested in the Great War , most people are familiar with the poster in its various forms, and/or start asking me what I think about his sexuality.

Looking forward to the books

Regards

Michael Bully

One of the facts we address in our book is that the image we have of Kitchener today is based on the poster.

In fact the poster was from a photo taken many years before and even then Alfred Leete removed the 'squint' he had in his eyes, squared the face off a bit and enhanced the moustache. If you look at a photograph of Kitchener taken in 1916 he was thinner and much older looking (obviously).

I have made a comparison making up a poster using the same photograph that Leete copied but without altering it. The lack of power in 'my' version compared to the Leete version is obvious.

Kitchener did not look like the poster, Kitchener looked like his photo.

In 1914 there were quite a number of posters using a real copy of a Kitchener photograph so it's fair to assume that people at the time would have known exactly what he did look like, unlike most today. (I don't include our motley lot here as we all know better )

[johnboy]

Taking photographs of queues outside recruiting offices would be more important. Q MB

This is the point I made in post 145. It could not have been censorship so what explains the lack of posters?

[funfly]

Have just seen on TV a small bit of a program about a call centre in Wales. Apart from not believing that this is realty, I notice that they have Kitchener images plastered all over their windows (windows as in 'see through' not Windows as in computer screens!)

Johnboy, you make a valid point about the lack of pictures. I also would have thought that the newspapers of the time would have carried many pictures of the queues. My co-author has mentioned out to me that the quality of photographs in newspapers was very poor thus leading to the use of illustrations as a better alternative by the press. However I would agree that in a period when recruitment was vital one would have expected pictorial records of activities at recruiting centres.

[JamesMSTaylor]

I just wanted to say a big thank you to everyone here who is passionate about a fascinating subject and in the course of a few days has unearthed some fascinating visual material and contributed interesting new details.

If only we could really get to grips and utilise the press to track down things on our behalf? I bet if a number of newspapers - national and local - across Britain put in advertorials asking (enlisting) the public for photographs taken during WWI that show posters we would be surprised at the results. I'm sure that more images of the pointy finger cartoon of Kitchener would surface. There must be far more photographs of the poster(s) in London?

James

[funfly]

What an impression this would have given

[JamesMSTaylor]

Martyn,

Powerful colour additions. They provide such a contrast to the black-and-white world that we are used to seeing of the WWI era. Please can I get your persmission to use the image and one other for talks?

James

[funfly]

James, of course you can use it.

Will email you

Martyn

[MichaelBully]

Something I had wondered - were there regional differences with regard to the use of Lord Kitchener's image on recruiting posters ( in general) ? Regards. Michael Bully

I just wanted to say a big thank you to everyone here who is passionate about a fascinating subject and in the course of a few days has unearthed some fascinating visual material and contributed interesting new details.

If only we could really get to grips and utilise the press to track down things on our behalf? I bet if a number of newspapers - national and local - across Britain put in advertorials asking (enlisting) the public for photographs taken during WWI that show posters we would be surprised at the results. I'm sure that more images of the pointy finger cartoon of Kitchener would surface. There must be far more photographs of the poster(s) in London?

James

[funfly]

I am waiting for someone to tell me that the Chester busses were not green

Something I had wondered - were there regional differences with regard to the use of Lord Kitchener's image on recruiting posters ( in general) ? Regards. Michael Bully

Michael, there are no figures on this as far as I know, it has been a difficult journey just to find out where any were at all. I know James has lots of figures about circulation of PRC posters and maybe he has this in regions. Interestingly enough we always assumed in our minds that our Kitchener poster was mainly London posted, the more we research the more it seems that it was more likely to be seen around the country than in the capital itself. This may even offer an explanation as to why there are so few photographs of it.

[JamesMSTaylor]

I think that the advertising guru Hedley Le Bas (he wrote 'Advertising for an Army in the The Lord Kitchener Memorial Book] who worked with Kitchener on the recruitment campaign had a good understanding of Kitchener working well in some areas and not others. He certainly knew that the profile of Kitchener was higher than the king of England. That Kitchener worked well in large parts of England and certain parts of Ireland and Wales but there was caution about using his image in Southern Ireland even though he was from Ballylongford. Maybe I am wrong in thinking that he was regarded as part of the English establishment and therefore not fully trusted by the Southern Irish. Being half-Scots we are a problematical lot and although we have some records of the pointy finger in Glasgow and Dundee perhaps it could be argued that in some Scottish areas his image would not be so effective. Posters in the Welsh language and poster designs to appeal to specific ethnic groups. There are some interesting posters with Kitcheners words encouraging Jews to fight for Britain. I am rambling and there are far better specialists on Kitchener in here.

James

[daggers]

Post #163 - I think it is a tram!

D

[Scalyback]

Post #163 - I think it is a tram!

D

Omnibus????

On thing that puzzles me. IWM state artwork was misfiled as a poster. Surely a poster is, well poster sized?????? May of been noted but I missed it.

[JamesMSTaylor]

We need a group trip to the Transport Museum (a virtual trip for those overseas)!

The IWM is a puzzle because they admit to miscataloguing the Leete artwork for London Opinion when Leete donated to the museum in 1917 (is that what you refer to?) They gave it a PST number - as part of the poster collection and then have added fairly recently the information about it being an artwork for a mag however it is still in the category off posters. Why not recatalogue with a proper reference? This miscataloguing is partly responsible for all the picture researchers and authors over the decades looking for good recruitment images of WWI and using this artwork as a 'poster' illustration.

Posters vary in sizes. One of the most popular of the war was 20 x 30 ins (portrait or landscape it works well but it is fairly small so you have group them together to make an impact). The BRITONS poster in the IWM is the that size although trimmed to remove the unsightly edges What you see on the website is not what the poster looks like at all. The original has a faded appearance with all the edges chipped and so the IWM cosmetically enhanced their image and trimmed away the sides to tidy it up.

How many authentic BRITONS "Wants You" posters are out there in public and private collections I wonder?

James

[JamesMSTaylor]

The measurements the IWM given for Leete's original artwork given below. It is poster like in size. I saw it a year ago. The framed version they had on display in the former WWI was a facsimile which is good for conservation. But the original should be out a bit more often for us all to enjoy. A difficult balance of conservation and public enjoyment.

J

Catalogue number

• Art.IWM PST 2735
  

Production date

1914

Dimensions

• Support: Height 594 mm
  
• Support: Width 487 mm
  
• Mount: Height 738 mm
  
• Mount: Width 611 mm
  

Creator

• Leete, Alfred
  

Category

posters

[GRANVILLE]

Back in the late '60's the IWM sold a reproduction and I have one in my attic somewhere. The paper quality was very good and quite thick, finished in an almost sandy colour as I recall. I don't know if they are still sold by the museum and to the same quality. David

[funfly]

Can someone tell me if it is a tram, a bus or an omnibus? Seeing the heavy wiring near the wheels I tend to think it was a tram.

Martyn

[funfly]

Granville - they still sell it. I think you will find that we all have one tucked away somewhere. I am a sad case as I have one looking at me as I type.

[redbarchetta]

It's a tram, Martyn. Omnibus and bus are one and the same, a road vehicle (horse-drawn or with an engine).

James

[funfly]

James did some sterling work at the IWM in changing information on a very important exhibit. I interviewed Richard in 2011 and he, of course, gave me the 'old' story.

It does illustrate that when we research a historical subject even information given to us by so called 'specialists' need to be challenged.

To be frank, when I interviewed Slocombe it did not occur to me to question the answers of this educated man and I don't think I would have had the gall to do so anyway!

[funfly]

Anyone know anything about this?

"In 1916 hoaxer Frank Power claimed to have recovered Kitchener's body and a funeral at St Paul's Cathedral was planned. However, suspicious officials opened the coffin to discover it was filled with tar rather than the remains of the great strategist. Charges were never laid against Power, however, and speculation about the fate of Kitchener continued."

Edited to add;

I see that it has been previously discussed here:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=119775

Edited 9 August , 2013 by funfly

[funfly]

On Saturday 7 September, 10.30am - 4.00pm there is a bit of a do at the National Army Museum in London in celebration of British war posters from the English Civil Wars to the present day.

There will be five experts discuss the changing ways posters have been used to encourage support for the Army and to register dissent and they will examine the range of artists and designers, such as John Hassall, Abram Games and Terence Cuneo, who have produced some of the 20th century’s most memorable images.

At this all-day event, our friend James Taylor will launch hos new book (the one that we have all been discussing here) 'Your Country Needs You: A Secret History of the Propaganda Poster'

There will also be a display of rarely seen Second World War posters designed and personally signed by Abram Games.

This would be a good opportunity for anyone in this forum to meet others and looks like being a good day out (I will be there of course)

Edited 10 August , 2013 by funfly