Your Country Needs You

[seb phillips]

This is fascinating.

The National Archive pointed out a few years ago that they sometimes have a problem when people come looking for the original source of a famous quote because - although it's used in half a hundred books - there IS no original source. If I remember correctly, the example they used was Bomber Harris's comment bout Dresden 'not being worth the life of a single British grenadier'. Quoted loads, can't be found in any papers or accounts.

The other point is - how things can become iconic after the event. To such an extent that people at the time may well think that was what they actually saw.

Not saying either is true in this case, but it could well be that the poster became a symbol for the whole war later on, but at the time was just one of a range. Memory is a funny thing.

All of which just points out the importance of giving people access to original sources, NOT just modern interpretations of same..

[funfly]

Seb, your observations have intrigued researchers for many years and have been a subject bounced back and forward in this forum.

My book, 'The Amazing Story of the Kitchener Poster' reveals the truth about the iconic Kitchener poster and includes records and photographs of the poster around the country in 1914.

It debunks the theory in the book by James Taylor ''Your Country Needs You' - The myth about the First World War poster that 'never existed'" where he claimed that, although credited with encouraging millions of men to sign up to fight in the trenches, no such poster was actually produced during the war - an idea was first proposed by Nicholas Hiley in 1997.

The book establishes that the poster people regard as an icon of World War I - the words ‘Your Country Needs You’ below a pointing Lord Kitchener - were certainly on posters during the Great War and used to help motivate young men to enlist.

Not only that, but the words and image from this remarkable poster have influenced millions of people and have been repeated thousands of times right up to the present today. From garden fetes to national marketing campaigns, magazine covers to prime ministers' speeches, the poster has echoed down the past century.

[MichaelBully]

Intrigued. I think that it was Bismark who allegedly claimed that "The Balkans were not worth the bones of a single Pomeranian grenadier" ! Didn't realise that Bomber Harris was meant to have copied or perhaps parodied this.

Due to Kitchener's status rumours emerged :

“Kitchener is said to be over at Ostend, with an army of 500,000 composed of the men of all nations. They are said to intend, after Germany has been gradually lured to Paris, to attack the back of the German lines. This, if only it could be true, would lead to stupendous carnage, & there might be such a battle as would particularly end the war. The move is a grand one, while the very name of Kitchener, & his presence on the actual battlefield, will fill the British with courage, & strike terror into German minds.”

(page 126)

This is actually Vera Brittain writing in her diary entry for 4th September 1914, later published as 'Chronicle of Youth'. .

Kitchener was not at Ostend at the time but interesting to see what an important figure he was in 1914.

With such views of Kitchener being circulated, it's easy to see how memory can create umpressions that don't always stand up to much scrutiny.

Regards

Michael Bully

This is fascinating.

The National Archive pointed out a few years ago that they sometimes have a problem when people come looking for the original source of a famous quote because - although it's used in half a hundred books - there IS no original source. If I remember correctly, the example they used was Bomber Harris's comment bout Dresden 'not being worth the life of a single British grenadier'. Quoted loads, can't be found in any papers or accounts.

The other point is - how things can become iconic after the event. To such an extent that people at the time may well think that was what they actually saw.

Not saying either is true in this case, but it could well be that the poster became a symbol for the whole war later on, but at the time was just one of a range. Memory is a funny thing.

All of which just points out the importance of giving people access to original sources, NOT just modern interpretations of same..

[funfly]

I am just reading a book where it is suggested that it is misleading to consider Time as a dimension. 'Time', he claims, doesn't exist and the word 'Time' simply describes change. There is no such thing in actuality as the past and the future.

In addition he points out that the past is only contained in our brains and furthermore each brain recollects what is in effect a different perception. We perceive the world via our own senses in the form of messages that are sent by our various receptors into our brain. An object, or event, does not have to be there, what is important is that we perceive it as there.

Whether 'our' poster was there or not in 1914 cannot therefore be relevant as it was only what people saw, or their brains told then that they saw that is relevant. Like the tree falling in the forest when no one is there so does it make a noise? Well the answer to that is no, what it does do is cause vibrations in the air that a man would perceive as noise if he were there. So our poster is not there now and was only there in 1914 as an image in the brains of the people who claim to have seen it.

If, in 1914, you looked at the poster would you have seen a piece of paper with coloured ink on it, no you would have seen a picture of Kitchener pointing at you. If you saw another poster altogether and came away thinking it was a picture of Kitchener pointing at you, what then?

Are you keeping up?

In fact he goes farther because each of us can only know what we personally know, we can never see what another person might see. This means that everything outside of our own brains may not even be there. We know that 'solid' objects at atomic level are virtually transparent, it is our sense of touch that 'feels' the solidity and our visual cones that indicate colour.

I might be alone here and all this in my imagination.

And I must get out more

[eairicbloodaxe]

Does that mean you writing a book about it is a figment of both your imagination and the collective imaginations of the hordes who will descend on a certain Cheshire Bookshop to purchase a figurative copy of that figment, containing a representation (that does not exist) of the signature of an individual who is also a figment of their (and his) collective imaginations?

I think I need a beer...

Regards

Ian

[clive_hughes]

I might be alone here and all this in my imagination.

What's worse, as I'm reading this it occurs to me that you might be in My imagination...

Help!!

[Kath]

Go on Facebook & search for Downton Abbey-in their blurb for the official companion book is a picture of Downton Post Office:

"Look closely and you will see that the outside of Downton’s post office is decorated with the iconic wartime recruitment poster, exclaiming Lord Kitchener ‘Wants You!’. The poster has been modified with some graffiti in the aftermath of the war – ‘RIP’ to fallen soldiers is scrawled across it."

Shame about the aerial in the background!

Kath.

[funfly]

Kath, If I assume the picture is meant to be after the war (forget the TV aerial) What point are they making about the poster, do you think they are just saying that K is dead or is there something else?

By the way, thanks for the reference.

LST-164, how can I be in your imagination if you are only in mine. BTW the idea about reality is only in our memories doesn't seem to account for photographs but, like the constipated accountant, I will work it out with a pencil.

Does that mean you writing a book about it is a figment of both your imagination and the collective imaginations of the hordes who will descend on a certain Cheshire Bookshop to purchase a figurative copy of that figment, containing a representation (that does not exist) of the signature of an individual who is also a figment of their (and his) collective imaginations? Love it

[seb phillips]

Yes, well - Downton Bloody Abbey. I was watching that with my ex-wife, hurrumphing about the poor state of the trenches, them being too bloody shallow etc. The someone got his head blown off.

"Told you. Just not deep enough."

And we're OK - reality is just a shared concept.

Lets try an experiment - lets change things so that sunday comes AFTER saturday, and England WON the world cup in 1966. I'm sure that there are enough people on this board that we can put those things right. Ready....OK, BELIEVE!

[johnboy]

I was watching that with my ex-wife

Was that in the present or in the past or the future?

[Kath]

I tried to put a link but failed.

Only RIP is visible to me, I can't see the words "to fallen soldiers".

If they are part of the fictitious post-war graffiti, the official companion book is blaming Kitchener's poster for all the deaths.

Kath.

[seb phillips]

I was watching that with my ex-wife

Was that in the present or in the past or the future?

My tendency to make comments about the about the factual accuracy of lightweight historical dramas may have had something to do with her change of status.....

[Seany]

Does that mean you writing a book about it is a figment of both your imagination and the collective imaginations of the hordes who will descend on a certain Cheshire Bookshop to purchase a figurative copy of that figment, containing a representation (that does not exist) of the signature of an individual who is also a figment of their (and his) collective imaginations?

I think I need a beer...

Regards

Ian

Are there hordes coming? I hope Martin has made enough sandwiches

[Sandie Hayes]

Channel 5 this evening - Lost Heroes of WW1

Robbie Burns (7th Cameron Highlanders) "Everywhere you went in Glasgow there was posters of Kitchener pointing at you. I signed up."

[depaor01]

Not sure if this has been seen by anyone on the thread - it's different to any I've seen so far - taken in Cork after the Lusitania sinking 1915:

Cheers,

Dave

[Seany]

Interesting Dave - I think that is what many of us thought we would find easily, background posters in everyday photographs of the time. Its evidently a rare piece.

[stevem49]

Some years ago I acquired a piece from 'The Windsor Magazine' (13 pages) entitled ' Recruiting by Poster, A Remarkable Patriotic Campaign'.

It has 17 pictures of posters amongst the text including a Welsh one and one for women.

Not sure of the date but it was obviously sometime early in the war.

Steve M

PS - any Welsh speakers? ' I'r FYDDIN FECHGYN GWALIA! Cas gwr nid cas ganddo elyn ei wlad. CYMRU AM BYTH!'

[Andrew Upton]

PS - any Welsh speakers? ' I'r FYDDIN FECHGYN GWALIA! Cas gwr nid cas ganddo elyn ei wlad. CYMRU AM BYTH!'

According to the IWM:

http://archive.theirpast-yourfuture.org.uk/upload/package/103/pdfs/Photographs_Documents.pdf

'To the Army, men of Gwalia! Hateful the man who hates not the enemy of his country. Wales for ever!'

[stevem49]

Many thanks.

SM

[JamesMSTaylor]

Dave, the Getty photograph is gold dust. At last a confirmed sighting of this pointy finger variant. For me it confirms that it lacks the clarity of Leete's original. Clearly it was in competition with so many other pictorial / news stories.

Wishing Martyn and Tony all the best for their book launch.

James Taylor

[Seany]

Is that 2 sightings from Ireland and 2 from England thus far?

[JamesMSTaylor]

Previous images on this thread reveal the posting of the BRITONS poster (it was cut down and altered for the recruiting Ulster tram) but this Cobh image shows the poster variant produced by David Allen and Sons of which as you know there is an example in the IWM's collection. Peter Doyle also had one.

The printer David Allen, arguably best known for producing theatrical posters prior to WW1, was headquartered in Belfast and had an office in Dublin so this explains the presence of this privately printed in Cobh. Are you aware of many photographs showing this poster publicly posted across England, Wales or Scotland?

James

[funfly]

Hi James, nice to see you back on the internet. How are things down under. Just to rub salt in the wound, the Getty poster says "Your Country Needs You".

Thanks for your good wishes, As you will have gathered the official launch is at Nantwich Bookshop on the 26th. October. Both Anthony Quinn and myself will be there to talk to people and to sign books.

Seany, "Is that 2 sightings from Ireland and 2 from England thus far?" - yes but it's not really a lot is it? However it is proof, if proof was needed, that the Opinion poster was sent far and wide. I suppose its a bit like "only a bit pregnant" it either was around or it wasn't, and it obviously was.

I will point out that our own book has only a small part discussing the actuality of the poster, we have included anecdotes about the social situation at the time and about events that surrounded the poster so it's a more general read and will appeal to a wide range of people than just those interested in recruiting posters.

Martyn

[funfly]

"taken in Cork after the Lusitania sinking 1915"

I actually wonder if these images are from a film of the disaster made sometime after WW1.

[eairicbloodaxe]

Interesting... my first thought on looking at the cork picture was "that looks like a film still". Especially as the two shots show one man in the same position and expression while others move around him.

Regards

Ian