funfly Posted 7 March , 2014 Author Share Posted 7 March , 2014 When you look at the Leete drawing you will notice that he has drawn the ears from the eyebrows to the base of the nose. In fact close study of the original artwork gives every indication that after his initial drawing he extended the ears down i.e. making them longer. In all the NPG photographs I have seen, including the two suggested by me and James as possible, the top of the ears are well below the eye level (see post 425 above). The only photograph I have found with his ears in the 'Leete' position is the one taken in 1915, even then they are not as long as Leete portrayed them. Also a painting in the Cheltenham Art Gallery done in 1915 shows him in this same facial position. It does seem possible that the painter referred to the above photograph. Even if you look at the 'other' Kitchener poster it is shown with the ears in the lower position. My assumption is that Leete was using artistic licence to make the guy look a bit more 'user friendly'. He also, of course, removed the squint, made the face more square and made the moustache blacker and larger - like a massive arrow pointing to the centre of the picture. I have done experiments removing the moustache and this quickly illustrated how important this one feature is to the power of the image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funfly Posted 7 March , 2014 Author Share Posted 7 March , 2014 Browsing online (yes I know it's sad, I should get out more) I thought this was quite a nice painting of our friend. A pastel done 1899 by Charles Mendelssohn Horsfall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefatigable Posted 7 March , 2014 Share Posted 7 March , 2014 I have a Will's Cigarette card that was issued overseas that has Kitchener smiling. I also have a booklet of British Commanders in the Transvaal War, again issued by Will's, that has a very similar Kitchener photo to that of the postcard previously featured albeit facing slightly to the left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesMSTaylor Posted 7 March , 2014 Share Posted 7 March , 2014 A rare Friday when I am at the desk. The ears and eyes formal analysis of Kitchener is intriguing. As mentioned by Martyn we have to allow for artistic license. In terms of views we have to recreate and surmise. Newspapers, magazines, posters, postcards, cigarette cards and advertisements (as previous posts have flagged up) all reveal a tremedous amount of fascinating information of the life and times during WWI. Come on British unis put money towards supporting projects.that address the aforementioned. There appears to lip service but no genuine, long term engagement. JT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesMSTaylor Posted 7 March , 2014 Share Posted 7 March , 2014 Now this has gone viral across the internet and is considered by various sources to be a genuine YCNY WWI poster! What is the real story behind this design? I am sure the GFW can get to the bottom of it. I'll throw out my first idea. Check out Dalkeith's Classic Poster Series of Postcards. But how did they get hold of this 'design'? JT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Filsell Posted 8 March , 2014 Share Posted 8 March , 2014 Angle of camera, height of seat would affect the apparent position of the ears would it not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesMSTaylor Posted 8 March , 2014 Share Posted 8 March , 2014 David, that's certainly true. The artist drawing upon the reference sources plays a key part too. To return to that 'poster' image. The now owner of Dalkeith postcard auctions had this to say two years ago. The answers are broad but accurate summaries of personal conversations. My question: where did the image come from as it is not a poster size and you include it in your Classic Poster Series? Answer from current owner: the owner then in the 1980s was a creative type who could improve images with photography and design. Some of the artwork came from the Imperial War Museum and I think he would have 'improved' it. My question: So it is not really a poster? Answer from current owner: no, it is likley to be a 'creation'. There are genuine posters in the pack of cards but this one carries that famous slogan So, in short the design might derive from the IWM. It was probably photoshoped and manipulated before being included in a pack of so-called poster cards of World War - Numbered P79 to P84. It is certainly hard to work out what is real and what is recreated and imagined. I am not sure we have got to the bottom of this yet. London Opinion produced reproductions of the YCNY on fine art paper for readers at a particular price. This was the first time that the combo of Kitchener and 4 word slogan was issued independently by the magazine. Has anyone actually seen one? More to come..... JT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funfly Posted 9 March , 2014 Author Share Posted 9 March , 2014 And if you come across this one; Then it's a facsimile I produced a little while back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ridgus Posted 16 March , 2014 Share Posted 16 March , 2014 We've all seen the traditional Uncle Sam variant of 'Your Country Needs You'. However here's another nod towards the original's wording and sentiment, even if a couple of steps removed: Another indication, if one were needed, of the cultural significance of baseball David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ridgus Posted 5 April , 2014 Share Posted 5 April , 2014 Here's a fifth version which is from later in the war dri 101.jpg Perhaps denoting the slight change in attitude, the simple appeal to patriotic duty is here supplemented with the rates of pay! David PS I will take a picture of my Kitchener wall in my classroom tomorrow. All the above images and so many more modern versions The Kitchener poster's iconic status is in no immediate danger! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funfly Posted 5 April , 2014 Author Share Posted 5 April , 2014 Ridgus Wow, that really is impressive…. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 5 April , 2014 Share Posted 5 April , 2014 I certainly agree, very impressive, khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ridgus Posted 5 April , 2014 Share Posted 5 April , 2014 I certainly agree, very impressive, khaki Thank you. It's about ten years worth of images. Ex-students still send me examples in the post when they see them as they all remember the wall David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelBully Posted 21 April , 2014 Share Posted 21 April , 2014 There is a short feature on the controversy surrounding the Kitchener poster with a mention of James Taylor's 'Your Country Needs You- The Secret History of the Propaganda' poster in the April 2014 issue of 'Fortean Times'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clive_hughes Posted 22 May , 2014 Share Posted 22 May , 2014 Just noticed this link to a forthcoming auction sale of an original copy of the poster. It is claimed to be one of only 3 originals surviving and the only one in private hands! The former owner had a huge stash of original WW1 posters which he acquired as an employee in a printing business. Also says that 10,000 copies of the K version were printed?? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2630396/Theres-room-YOU-Fascinating-collection-British-Army-recruitment-poster-First-World-War-hidden-attic.html Hmmm...that's odd - the version as seen just now, unlike what I read last night, contains no reference to the K poster (though it's a marvellous collection anyway!) Ah! here it is - sorry, was from a different source to the other batch http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2625851/We-want-15-000-Kitchener-poster-Last-surviving-First-World-War-recruitment-advert-set-sold-auction.html Clive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funfly Posted 23 May , 2014 Author Share Posted 23 May , 2014 As you will know, we found a number of instances where the pointing finger design was used prior to Leete using it in his famous design. Here's another example from a magazine dated 1907. Martyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funfly Posted 23 May , 2014 Author Share Posted 23 May , 2014 The Mail article is fairly accurate and their estimate of the number of 'Kitchener posters produced seems realistic although we understand that the poster was privately produced not produced by the PRC. However the PRC did use the image in a later poster with the words 'Your Country Needs You' - often known as the 'flags' version. Unlike many PRC posters where thousands of unused ones remained and hence are common with collectors today, the Kitchener poster was well distributed and we have seen photographs of copies displayed as far apart as Liverpool, Chester and Ulster but unfortunately no 'unused' copies have remained to give testimony to it's widespread coverage (the 3 remaining all seem to show signs of exposure). Fortunately the Mail did not perpetuate the, now debunked, myth that the Kitchener poster never existed! The Mail comment about the poster currently on sale: Most recruiting posters made by the Parliamentary Recruiting Committee that were reproduced in the hundreds of thousands and distributed to all corners of the British Empire. 'But perhaps only 10,000 copies of the Lord Kitchener poster were made and they would only have gone on display in Britain. 'The reason is that the poster was first made by Alfred Leete for the front cover of London Opinion magazine. 'It was so popular that the Parliamentary Recruiting Committee sought permission to use the front page as a recruiting poster. 'The only thing different was that they changed the wording from ‘needs you’ to ‘wants you’. 'It was a hugely successful poster and was responsible for tens of thousands of men enlisting in the Army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funfly Posted 29 May , 2014 Author Share Posted 29 May , 2014 BBC are doing a program on Alfred Leete this Saturday, I will post more information as soon as I get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelBully Posted 29 May , 2014 Share Posted 29 May , 2014 Excellent news- please keep us informed. Regards BBC are doing a program on Alfred Leete this Saturday, I will post more information as soon as I get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funfly Posted 31 May , 2014 Author Share Posted 31 May , 2014 BBC Radio Northamton Sunday 1st June http://www.funfly.co.uk/images/BBC Alfred Leete28-5-14.mp3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mandy hall Posted 31 May , 2014 Share Posted 31 May , 2014 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2644128/The-secret-poster-sent-millions-war-Recruitment-poster-featuring-WWI-minister-Lord-Kitchener-drawn-hours-man-never-met-ignored-pronounced-SQUINT.html Daily Mail today. Mandy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenneth505 Posted 31 May , 2014 Share Posted 31 May , 2014 Does it help with dating the iconic image? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funfly Posted 1 June , 2014 Author Share Posted 1 June , 2014 Does it help with dating the iconic image? There seems every likelihood that the image was drawn by Alfred Leete within the week before the publication of the London Observer - most likely in the previous day or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funfly Posted 1 June , 2014 Author Share Posted 1 June , 2014 Mandy, that was quick For the Mail not too bad an article, a little different to the one they ran on 3rd August last year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funfly Posted 1 June , 2014 Author Share Posted 1 June , 2014 BBC Radio Northampton http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01wvbdq Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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