Your Country Needs You

[MichaelBully]

Thanks Martyn, have just been listening to it. Glad that you got the opportunity to discuss Alfred Leete and Kitchener . Regards

BBC Radio Northamton Sunday 1st June

http://www.funfly.co.uk/images/BBC Alfred Leete28-5-14.mp3

[funfly]

One comment to the Mail article. Will the poster never get the credit it deserves just because of a misleading article in the Telegraph last year?

The men who reported being recruited by it, were they liars?

The countries who copied it at the time, were they real?

The photos of it displayed on walls across the country , are they all fakes?

The poster with the words 'Kitchener needs YOU' produced by the London Opinion, a copy of which is in the IWM, is that a fake?

The poster with the words 'Your Country Needs YOU' printed by the Government with a credit to the London Opinion, a copy of which is in the IWM, is that a fake?

Dave, Gosport, United Kingdom, 1 day ago

I'm sorry but the poster with Kitchener's portrait and the words "your country needs you" was not used as a recruiting poster in world war one - as was actually reported in the DM last year (3rd August). The actual poster shown in the contemporary photographs is different - if you actually bother to look carefully.

[David Ridgus]

One comment to the Mail article. Will the poster never get the credit it deserves just because of a misleading article in the Telegraph last year?

The men who reported being recruited by it, were they liars?

The countries who copied it at the time, were they real?

The photos of it displayed on walls across the country , are they all fakes?

The poster with the words 'Kitchener needs YOU' produced by the London Opinion, a copy of which is in the IWM, is that a fake?

The poster with the words 'Your Country Needs YOU' printed by the Government with a credit to the London Opinion, a copy of which is in the IWM, is that a fake?

Dave, Gosport, United Kingdom, 1 day ago

I'm sorry but the poster with Kitchener's portrait and the words "your country needs you" was not used as a recruiting poster in world war one - as was actually reported in the DM last year (3rd August). The actual poster shown in the contemporary photographs is different - if you actually bother to look carefully.

I feel your pain and frustration funfly. Reading the comments under the Daily Mail article makes me want to weep. The casual ignorance trumpeted with such certainty. O tempora, O mores!

David

[funfly]

I promised myself I wouldn't react again to this sort of thing, so will try not to do so in future.

It's nice to see so much interest around at the moment in the Great War, albeit a lot of stuff being pushed by those who want to get in (capitalise?) on the act.

[JamesMSTaylor]

Congrats Martyn on the radio work and keeping Leete going. I see the Daily Mail has been swung into action.

I am interested in Martyn's questions:

1. The men who reported being recruited by it, were they liars?

2. The countries who copied it at the time, were they real?

3. The photos of it displayed on walls across the country , are they all fakes?

4. The poster with the words 'Kitchener needs YOU' produced by the London Opinion, a copy of which is in the IWM, is that a fake?

5. The poster with the words 'Your Country Needs YOU' printed by the Government with a credit to the London Opinion, a copy of which is in the IWM, is that a fake?

.I would like to tackle all of these questions but not necessarily in turn or all at once.

Let's kick off with number 5. I assume that the 'Your Country Needs You' poster referred to is the David Allen & Sons 'Flags' poster in the IWM? Has new evidence come to light about this being a government poster? To the best of my knowledge this was a privately produced poster.There is no reference to it in the National Archives, Kew. That said David Allen & Sons produced around a quarter of the PRC poster that were all numbered. The 'Flags' poster has no government reference number. I am sure that some of you already know that it was David Allen.. who also produced the private poster campaign for a tobacco company prior to WWI that featured James Motherwell (one of their staff who was been addressed in an earlier GWF thread). In one of the posters Motherwell can been seen pointing at the viewer to encourage people to buy fags. This was one of many pointing finger sources that could have been drawn upon by Leete for his LO magazine cover. What is particularly novel about Leete's design is that it is the first time that a celebrated British citizen was given the pointy finger treatment. This is a significant reason why Leete's LO cover design caught public attention.

More to come in stages.

James

[JamesMSTaylor]

Before addressing points 1-4 the content of the Daily Mail article needs airing.

One sub-heading is an astonishing claim in terms of the influence of the 'Kitchener poster' . Is that from you Martyn or a sub-editor? Where is the evidence to support the claim that Leete's Kitchener design inspired 2.5 million men to sign up??

[funfly]

Here we go again, the campaign to prove that the poster didn't exist rolls on.

(Read the article again and you will realise that the article said that Kitchener got 2.5 million men to sign up.)

If you go back through this thread you will find that the object of the exercise was to find out more about this iconic image, to discover and understand its history, background, its power and reasons why this same image remains with us today. The idea was to allow Leete, a fine illustrator, to gain some prominence and respect alongside many other illustrators of the period. Through the diligence of many contributors we have been able to piece together a great deal of information about the poster.

[JamesMSTaylor]

Here we go again indeed.

Re-Read the main headline and you will see that the sub-header connects to it:

'The Secret of the Poster that sent millions to war...'

To use an old fashioned north-country expression (where I hail from) that is cock-and-bull Martyn!!! If that is endorsed by you it does not help in any shape or form with a reasoned debate. We assume it is reasoned debate you want here?

[funfly]

All I was doing was reporting an article in the Mail where I had some input in case others might be interested.

It so happened that (in the newspaper) someone had made a silly comment based on an article in the Telegraph in 2013 which I felt was inaccurate and I (wrongly it seems) referred to that with my own reflections - I didn't realise that it would be subject to nit picking and I would remind posters on here that this is public domain and therefore posts should refrain from being personal.

Perhaps I should bow to the knowledge of those more qualified than I and accept that the Kitchener Poster designed by Alfred Leete never existed:

The poster's limited circulation was first suggested by Nicholas Hiley in 1997 and this hypothesis was expanded on in a book by myself in 2011 called 'Myth & Magic'.

In 2013 a book by the eminant historian James Taylor took this a step further claiming (quoted unabridged from his website); "Government records and photographs from the period reveal alternative and surprising stories confirming that this was, in fact, an imagined poster. Although there were more than 200 wartime posters produced by official and private organisations, there is no evidence of the existence of a poster featuring a finger-pointing Lord Kitchener with mass appeal".

[JamesMSTaylor]

M,

Mostly old news and points that have been addressed earlier in this thread. My responses are reasonable and proportionate to previous posts on line and in print.

Retuning to the Daily Mail article of 31 May 2014 by Kieran Corcoran and his (your?) headline.":

'The Secret of the Poster that sent millions to war...'

Is it a coincidence that Corcoran is referencing part of the title of my book? Or did you suggest this as a headline to the journalist?

Do you really believe this headline?

There is overwhelming evidence of of the silhouette poster designs being an extremely popular design during the early part of the war, more so than pointy fingers. Also you seem to ignore the 164 plus designs by the Parliamentary Recruiting Committee that published many of these silhouette designs, and as you know did not publish Leete's designs. I'll be addressing these points in articles in 2015.

And what is absolutely clear is that by the summer of 1915 there was a backlash against all the forceful posters as it was evident what they were pointing people towards - the likelihood of disability or death!

The reason why the sober close-up photographic image of Kitchener that featured in two versions of PRC poster, produced by David Allen &. Sons with words from his Guildhall speech of July 1915 was so popular with 145,000 copies produced, was that it lacked a forthright, aggressive pointing finger.

Does probing the claims of the mass popularity of Leete's posters during the WWI correlate to someone who does not admire Leete as an 'artist-designer'? There are many fans here, including me. I've got the YCNY cuff-links that I proudly wear to talks. I'm eying up the wallet, wash bag, watch etc. May be Boxer shorts next!

J

[MichaelBully]

James- I'm one up on you, I've got the tea towel!

Can I just say that I've been fascinated by Kitchener and the myths surrounding him for a while. I've learnt a lot from this thread, I've bought both books. I've heard James' talk on the subject and great to have a chat afterwards with him. I would be pleased to hear Martyn give a talk to explain his side and to sign my copy of his book.

But please guys can we keep this discussion on a mellower note ? The mods already suspended this thread a few months back .

Thanks,

[JamesMSTaylor]

Hi Michael, lol. There certainly is a vast range of merchandise to choose from. Hope you are keeping well? I agree it would be good to hear Martyn present a reasoned presentation on the subject in a public forum.

James

[funfly]

I agree it would be good to hear Martyn present a reasoned presentation on the subject in a public forum.

Anyone interested in the subject would have been welcome at one of the talks I have given this year, however I am not sure what 'the subject' is.

If someone chooses to believe the poster never existed that's up to them, I certainly won't be involved in some sort of public slanging match.

Should anyone find anything in my book which they feel is inaccurate the way to do this is to quote the script involved and point out where it is wrong - there is certainly one image that is incorrectly captioned for a start and there are bound to be bloopers somewhere!

I would repeat what I have said before (and that Michael has also referred to) that this forum is not the place for personal comments.

So please more stuff about the Kitchener poster and recruiting during the Great War. I'm sure that there are some, as yet, undiscovered gems out there.

[JamesMSTaylor]

So, so tiresome Martyn,

If someone chooses to believe the poster never existed that's up to them, I certainly won't be involved in some sort of public slanging match.

You know from this thread and in private correspondence outside the forum and attending one of my talks at the National Army Museum that I do not doubt the existence of the poster. You also know it because I sent you my book and you have read it. It's the national and international mass popularity theory of the poster that I do not concur with. We have all recently been reminded thanks to the Daily Mail headline - 'The Secret of the Poster that sent millions to war...' where you sit on that particular debate. You don't actually answer direct questions which are not intended to be personal but academic and probing in nature.

I completely agree let's move on with sensible and reasoned discussion.

J

[funfly]

I think I can clarify matters for you regarding the effectiveness of the Leete 'Kitchener' poster:

The Leete 'Kitchener' poster was privately produced possibly by the London Opinion itself shortly after the image was used on its front page on 5th. September 1914.

Most experts agree that maybe only a few thousand copies of it were printed but it is now known that they were circulated across the country, it would seem sensible to assume that the newspaper distribution system was used as a means of distribution.

The image was certainly well known enough for other countries to copy it, in particular the US with the now famous 'Uncle Sam' advert.

There doesn't seem to be any information on the exact (or even approximate) numbers of the Leete poster printed nor to the places in the UK to where it was distributed.

There were thousands and thousands of recruiting posters produced, some by private concerns, but mainly by the Government.

To make judgements as to the impact of a specific poster is obviously a fruitless exercise. No documents or mechanism exists that will allow us to calculate the effect of each and every poster on recruitment, all we know is that millions of recruits were persuaded to volunteer by methods that will have included posters.

The man in charge of recruitment was Kitchener himself and it is inevitable that his name is closely identified with the numbers who felt the call.

To many, Kitchener is the man on the poster, and it wouldn't stretch the imagination to see the poster as representing the man himself in the minds of many people. Hence, I submit, why the poster runs the risk of being credited with the total recruitment when in fact it was the man shown on the poster. When you look at it this way it is very understandable how the confusion arises.

Since the Great War there have been many who have attempted to quantify the Leete poster, some have claimed that it was responsible for virtually every recruit and some have claimed that it didn't exist at all.

Just to complicate matters, there were not only a couple of versions of the Leete image but other recruiting posters that have been referred to as "The Kitchener Poster'

The answer that personally I subscribe to is that as there is absolutely no way of determining the effect of any single poster, the effect must be considered cumulatively.

If newspapers wish to headline articles claiming that one single poster was alone responsible for all recruits, that's their problem not mine. One must ponder on how this newspaper who claimed last year that the poster didn't exist at all can now claim that this 'non existent poster' persuaded 2.5 million men to enlist.

Anyway, I hope this has helped.

[JamesMSTaylor]

M, that's more like it. Please do though drop this referencing to those 'who claim it didn't exist at all''.

It's the lions share of a year since that piece appeared in the Daily Telegraph. The story was then picked up by the Daily Mail and other papers. The headline about 'the finger pointing design never being used' ' as addressed earlier in this thread was an invention of the sub-editor. I called the editor to complain about it although little good did that do. Naturally the trolls had a field day. The one good thing that did emerge from the piece (it certainly wasn't book sales) was that it galvanised people to find a few images of the finger pointing designs that were posted in Britain.

Here we are almost a year gone and there is still only meagre visual evidence. The authentic sitings of the poster(s) are also small in number. As already mentioned I'm sure that more pics will eventually come to light. In the meantime a considerable amount of new visual material and evidence has emerged about the PRC posters. The numbers printed as you know were huge in relation to the private posters. We also now have new information about German propaganda designs. There are two German caricatures of finger pointing designs that show they were referencing the cover of London Opinion. It is as I argue this cover that is the significant power source and influence. Flagg is most likely to have seen the cover of this influential magazine with his fellow illustrators and cartoonists at the Society of Illustrators in New York. This suggestion is endorsed by Flagg's close artist friend Kinstler with whom I have been in private correspondence.

However, if we could find Leete's poster designs in New York or anywhere else in the US that would be something? Let's keep looking there and on the Home Front here too.

J

[MichaelBully]

Great I think that debate is moving forward again. What does seem to be a problem is that once the media pick up on the debate, there is a strong risk that they'll go for the most sensational angle and distort the discussion.

Because my interest is in the myths surrounding Kitchener, I'm keen to disentangle whether or not the YCNY pointed finger iconic poster helped to fuel the Kitchener myth or has the poster become part of it ? So always interested in photographic evidence of this poster being on display -if that can be dated- as that seems the most reliable.

Regards,

[JamesMSTaylor]

http://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/transformingsociety/private-lives/yourcountry/overview/conscription/

Hi Michael,

They are certainly all tangled and you may well be onto something there.

Check out the Parliamentary link above. A remarkable claim!

I wonder whether iconic was ever used to describe a Leete design during WW1. My hunch is that we starting using that word in recent decades. I am pretty sure it is post the acquisition of the IWM's 'BRITONS' poster in the 1950s. Does anyone have any evidence to show it was used earlier?

J

[MichaelBully]

Yes Indeed James, in general terms it would be hard to describe a poster image or other image as 'iconic' until some time had passed. Regards

http://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/transformingsociety/private-lives/yourcountry/overview/conscription/


Hi Michael,
They are certainly all tangled and you may well be onto something there.
Check out the Parliamentary link above. A remarkable claim!
I wonder whether iconic was ever used to describe a Leete design during WW1. My hunch is that we starting using that word in recent decades. I am pretty sure it is post the acquisition of the IWM's 'BRITONS' poster in the 1950s. Does anyone have any evidence to show it was used earlier?
J

[funfly]

Copy being sold soon, wonder if any of us is interested?

265

Alfred Leete (1882-1933) Britons (Kitchener) "Wants You" Join Your Country's Army ! God Save the King, original recruiting poster printed by the Victoria House Printing Company Co. Ltd. September 1914 - 75.4 x 51 cm

Provenance: Christie's South Kensington Printed Ephemera Lot 130 2nd. September 1983

This rare and iconic poster is one of only four known to exist, there are examples in the Imperial War Museum, State Library of Victoria Melbourne and the Robert Opie Collection. Last year it was wrongly reported in the press that the poster's existence was a urban myth and was never used as a recruiting poster this was not the case. Proof of the poster being displayed publicly in 1914 has now come to light in two photographs, one showing the poster on a hoarding with other's published by the Parliamentary Recruiting poster at Liverpool Station 15.12.1914 and the other posted on pillars of Chester's Town Hall. It would be reasonable to say that the rarity of this poster could be put down to the numbers printed being far less than the Parliamentary Recruiting Committee issued posters of which there was a surplus available for sale after the war. The poster for sale is pure ephemera as it would appear to have been torn down from display either in disgust or as a future collectors item.

[johnboy]

http://www.bl.uk/collection-items/your-country-needs-you

A comment re myths.

[MichaelBully]

Thanks for the article Johnboy, interesting. Found the comments re. September 1914 particularly useful. Regards

http://www.bl.uk/collection-items/your-country-needs-you

A comment re myths.

[JamesMSTaylor]

Hope the poster makes a record sum. I think it was in March when Patrick Bogue of Onslows called about what was then a possible consignment. It would be interesting to compare this poster alongside that of the example in the IWM. Most of the images widely available of the IWM poster that can be seen across the web, and offered for reproduction purposes by the museum, are not a true reflection of its actual appearance or physical condition. Almost all these images have been Photoshopped.

Checking through my responses from the auction houses from several years ago when I enquired if any of them had sold the BRITONS poster or YCNY David Allen & sons variant Christies responded that they had no sales records of any of them. Perhaps because it was in a mixed lot in the early 1980s that's why they missed it.

The BRITONS example in Melbourne is in better condition than the IWM example. It is a shame that Robert Opie refuses to allow access to his original which he says is too fragile.

I wonder if the IWM's original BRITONS poster will be out on public display next month. For many years what we all saw in the old WW1 galleries was a facsimile. The original being housed with many others in Duxford that is not easy to access.

So our hopes are with the IWM to get the original out!

J

[Uncle George]

Does this picture and caption, from the 'War Memoirs of David Lloyd George', contribute anything at all? The picture is from the 1938 edition. LL.G on recruitment: "Lord Kitchener's outstanding name and fame constituted a great appeal, which was organised with expert efficiency and understanding by the agents of the two great political parties."

Apologies if I'm going over old ground.

[funfly]

That image is valuable to me.

It looks to be a copy of the same one used by the Post June 1st 1940.

It's not a copy of the London Opinion poster where the Y has a cut out section in the arm.

It's not a copy from the first poster which had the word "Wants"

It's not from the 'Flags' poster with those words but modifications e.g. change to the collar and cap.

The best comparison is the front page of the London Opinion itself of 5th. September 1914 (but I was unaware that the IWM had a copy of this). However the detail seems far more like a copy of a drawing than a copy of the newspaper front.

There is a puzzle here; It is credited to the Imperial War Museum and in most respects it is very close to the original artwork we see today, but in a very much different condition than it is today.

Maybe someone has carefully removed all the area surrounding the face and replaced it with a 'sketchy' area but close examination doesn't support this. Also, of course, there are no suggestion of fold damage.

Only some quick observations but worthy of some input.