Your Country Needs You

[funfly]

Uncle George,

Interesting comment in the book.

Of course the 'images' of Kitchener that seem to be remembered will be the ones used on 'our' Kitchener Poster with the Leete drawing and on the numerous other posters bearing his image produced by the Government.

Virtually all of these are based on photographs taken some 30 years before 1914 and few of them show his real gaze which, we are told, was memorable more by his disconcerting squint than his 'steely' gaze.

Our research, helped in no small way by contributors to this forum, contributes to the currently accepted explanation which James has summarised and I offer no apology for repeating: Many people find it close to impossible to separate out the official call to arms, the mass of Kitchener propaganda and Leete's memorable words and design.

[funfly]

What the Daily Mail doesn't know it makes up

Today 11th,

"One of only three surviving 'Lord Kitchener Wants You' First World War recruitment posters sells for world record £30,00"

Well, £27,540 actually, article goes on;

"The poster started off life as the front cover of a 1914 edition of magazine London Opinion which had commissioned renowned artist Alfred Leete.

The Parliamentary Recruiting Committee, which commissioned all the recruitment posters, spotted the artwork and turned it into a poster.

Lord Kitchener, the Secretary of State for War, was a well-respected military leader and the poster became one of the enduring images of the war effort

It was then plastered on billboards around the country - but only 10,000 were made."

[funfly]

I have just seen this poster copy for sale on http://www.amazon.co.uk/World-Lord-Kitchener-Recruitment-Poster/dp/B00B5DUZT2

It's certainly not the London Opinion one, compare it to the IWM copies and the one just sold.

So where did this one come from?

It's actually quite different to the ones we know. If someone was doing a fake poster, why would they redraw the artwork as much as this - surely they would just do a copy?

Or are they getting round copyright issues by claiming;

• An A3 size poster with typical Lord Kitchener pose - an example of a recruitment poster of the time.
• Ideal for discussing the ethos of the time.

[MichaelBully]

Most strange indeed. Was wondering Martyn- could you raise this question in form of a review on 'Amazon UK' ? Regards

I have just seen this poster copy for sale on http://www.amazon.co.uk/World-Lord-Kitchener-Recruitment-Poster/dp/B00B5DUZT2

It's certainly not the London Opinion one, compare it to the IWM copies and the one just sold.

So where did this one come from?

It's actually quite different to the ones we know. If someone was doing a fake poster, why would they redraw the artwork as much as this - surely they would just do a copy?

Or are they getting round copyright issues by claiming;

• An A3 size poster with typical Lord Kitchener pose - an example of a recruitment poster of the time.
• Ideal for discussing the ethos of the time.

[funfly]

NEW RESEARCH

I am trying to ascertain if the 'Kitchener' image was used in any posters between 1918 and 1940 (when it was used on the front of the Post.

The picture I am getting is that it was only after the 'I was Kitcheners Valet' in the 60s that uncreative poster designers started to use it at all - from Scout jamborees to Garden fetes etc.

The other area that I am researching is why nowadays the image, with such a serious background, is often used when politicians need ridiculing. examples from Harold Macmillan to the latest of David Cameron. Why does the image lower the credibility of the person portrayed in it?

See my thoughts in the BBC magazine article due out 4th August and discussion on the BBC Today program next Tuesday.

Mart

[David Ridgus]

NEW RESEARCH

The other area that I am researching is why nowadays the image, with such a serious background, is often used when politicians need ridiculing. examples from Harold Macmillan to the latest of David Cameron. Why does the image lower the credibility of the person portrayed in it?

Mart

Only my opinion of course but I think it comes down to the canard of 'lions led by donkeys'. The poster and everything which it is perceived to stand for is seen by many as bogus. Therefore to show someone in that pose is to lampoon them as bogus. Two of the most recent additions to my school war illustrate this, David Cameron is portrayed as Kitchener with the slogan 'Britons I want your child allowance'. The suggestion clearly that the public are being duped into giving up something under the guise of it helping the country when all it is doing is helping the ruling class as epitomised by the prime minister. I hasten to add that this is not a political comment by me just an illustration of the point of people seeing the image as 'fooling' people. 'Kitchener fooled the young men of 1914 with this appeal to patriotism when all he was doing was encouraging the working classes to lay down their lives for the establishment' is , as you know, the argument.

David

[funfly]

'Kitchener fooled the young men of 1914 with this appeal to patriotism when all he was doing was encouraging the working classes to lay down their lives for the establishment' is , as you know, the argument.

David, I think you have the collection of 'copy' Kitchener posters. Can you let me know of the earliest date that we see the image being used on a new poster and have you any conclusions about usage/date?

Martyn

[David Ridgus]

Martyn

The earliest of mine was a poster for 'Oh What a Lovely War' (the film version). From its very first production (1963) it has almost invariably been used in production publicity for revivals. I wonder if that play's colossal influence on perceptions of the war have rubbed off on the poster.

Here is a picture of the theatre where it was first performed:

The rise of military tunics as fashion in the mid-sixties I also think led to its further revival as an advert although I cannot find an example.

Hardly a rigorous survey but for what it's worth I've not seen an example prior to 'Oh what a Lovely War' of the image being used in a derogatory or mocking way. All previous adaptations had been in effect homages to the original.

Even now it is sometimes used affectionately - especially in a sporting context. There have been a number of 'your country needs Roo' mock ups before tournaments and I have two examples of mock ups featuring Sven Goran Eriksson: although whether they are mocking or affectionate is a matter of debate!

Oh and here's the other recent example I have added to my wall

David

[funfly]

On Wednesday 6th. there will be an article in the BBC online magazine based on my latest investigations:

I hope that as a responsible body they will be accurate in reporting my discussions with them, it it hoped to include areas such as;

How the poster has had such longevity despite never being used by the official recruiting body capacity and having a relatively small circulation at the time of the war.

It will look at the myth (as the Daily Mail among others have reported) that its existence is questionable and my own proof of its existence and appearance across the UK.

It will also pose the question as to why it has been used in the political sphere to mock politicians such as David Cameron, and its use in advertisement to promote events and products.

On BBC Radio 4 on Wednesday the Today program, which goes out between 7am and 9am, will have a discussion about the article where I have been invited to take part.

Martyn

[johnboy]

On tv last night was a program re ww1. It was probably made 2000 or a bit before. In interviews with some old soldiers they mentioned on more than one occasion the Kitchener poster being everywhere. Yet in the footage of recruiting offices, inside and outside there were no posters in sight.,

[funfly]

John boy,

That's because our Kitchener poster was privately printed so will not have been used in any official locations.

We do have photographs of it pasted up outside of Chester barracks though.

[johnboy]

John boy,

That's because our Kitchener poster was privately printed so will not have been used in any official locations.

We do have photographs of it pasted up outside of Chester barracks though.

A bit of a contradiction. One picture does not a summer make!

[funfly]

BBC magazine article here - not much from me though but he has well researched the article and it's pretty good from my point of view.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28642846

Martyn

[MichaelBully]

Interesting - there was so much mythology surrounding Kitchener, I would certainly would want corroboration when there's an interview with someone maintaining that decades earlier they kept seeing his face on posters, particularly The YCNY version !

It's always be my stance- there was Kitchener as a historical person but also Kitchener the mythical figure and the poster debate is part of this attempt to disentangle the two.

Perhaps we can add a third 'Kitchener', the ironic icon to the 'Swinging 60's' generation.

I've found in my own research into Great War at Sea Poetry that the death of Kitchener on board the HMS Hampshire on 5th June 1916 generated a massive response with an anthology of hundred of the 'best' poems being published by the end of the year as 'Poems in Memory of the Late Field Marshall Lord Kitchener ' by the British Institute of Poetry, These poems were often published elsewhere such as in newspapers and magazines. The impact of Kitchener's death was massive.

But so much had happened to Britain since 1916, it's possible to see how the 'Swinging 60's ' youngsters in the shadow of the Second World and the Nuclear threat would view Kitchener in a very different light to people sixty years earlier would refer to 'Kitchener of Khartoum'.

Martyn- I'm really pleased that you're getting featured on the 'Today' programme and BBC History. Well done.

On tv last night was a program re ww1. It was probably made 2000 or a bit before. In interviews with some old soldiers they mentioned on more than one occasion the Kitchener poster being everywhere. Yet in the footage of recruiting offices, inside and outside there were no posters in sight.,

[funfly]

The item on Wednesdays 'Today' program will not now be done.

[MichaelBully]

That's a shame. Hope that Radio 4 can do an interview another time. Regards

The item on Wednesdays 'Today' program will not now be done.

[funfly]

Thanks Michael - I had already told them that I was not available for the interview!

I am at the age when I question whether I should turn out at the crack of dawn to be interviewed for a few fleeting seconds for no reward apart from the kudos of having my voice on the radio. Well its been on many times before and it hasn't brought me fame and fortune. I asked if they had bought a copy of my book and they said no.

Gives me more time to play the saxophone innit.

[funfly]

Another Myth?

We all know the famous poster PRC number 97.

There seems no doubt that the poster was printed by Johnson Riddle and Co. and many copies of unused ones exist today.

But was it ever used? I can find no records of it being pasted on a wall or contemporary references to it.

The only photograph I know of is this one which does seem to indicate that the poster was known to the general public;

However the slogan had been in a Government newspaper at the time with the words: 'What will you reply when your daughter grows up and says "Daddy, what did YOU do in the Great War?"'. and it is thought that the poster took its wording from here

But the fact remains that there are no records that I am aware of placing the poster No. 97 in public view.

This poster is the one that all 'historians' use to illustrate the messaging techniques used by the PRC. Is it possible that the poster was never actually used?

As we well know, the fact that a poster is around in collections today only proves that it was printed but not used. Conversely, as argued here ad infinitum, the lack of a copy of a poster today is no proof that it never existed.

Any thoughts on this?

[johnboy]

I have said before in an earlier post, that after looking at photos of street scenes of the time I have not come across any posters. Would you not have expected to see them outside recruiting offices, in shop windows etc?

[funfly]

johnboy

Like you, I have looked at dozens of street photographs from the period and very few show any recruiting posters at all. The only ones you seem to get are outside of recruiting offices and at special displays. The picture painted by 'historians' is a mass of posters glaring from every wall in every town (especially London) I think the truth is what you have pointed out.

The more I think about it, the more I have the impression that the reported "Kitchener everywhere pointing at you" is more a way of reporting the feeling of the pressures to enlist backed by the Kitchener campaign rather that an actual picture of Kitchener pointing.

How easy it would be for reports of "Kitchener everywhere" to morf along to be be "Kitchener's picture everywhere" (is there such a word as 'morf'?).

Apart from a few photographs showing the outside of recruiting offices with text posters and the photograph of the interior of the office with all the posters on the wall, I think the following is one of the very few showing posters on public display.

Outside of Chester Station

[johnboy]

Minus the pointy finger.

[funfly]

That pointing finger will follow me to my grave

Went through the village of Church Minshall, 2 miles from me, and they are advertising their coming village fete - what image do you think they are using on the posters?

"Your village needs YOU" - ugh!

[johnboy]

It seems the images used today are more visible. I think WFA uses it.

[ph0ebus]

Well, here's something on eBay that may be of interest:

YOUR COUNTRY NEEDS YOU

-Daniel

[Uncle George]

'Winston Churchill As I Knew Him' by Violet Bonham Carter was published in 1965. VBC tells us that, "I shall always remember seeing in Trafalgar Square the first of those vast posters which were soon to cover the whole country, of Kitchener's face - complete with piercing eye, bristling moustache, imperious forefinger outstretched - and, underneath, the caption: 'Your Country Needs YOU.' "

So VBC remembered that K poster, with that wording, covering the whole country.

She writes that she "always had a soft spot for this hard and enigmatic man".