Your Country Needs You

[Uncle George]

Interestingly, there is no mention in Ll.G's massive 'Memoirs' (that I have seen) of the effect of this poster. Ll.G does give us the Margot Asquith "not a great man but a great poster" quote, and adds, "He was, indeed, the greatest 'poster' since Boulanger, but he was far more."

But in his discussion on recruiting, there is no specific mention.

[EDIT- but see post 500 below.]

Ll.G: "At first, recruiting meetings, posters, literature, and other forms of popular appeal were employed. The recruiting crusade was well organised. The services of expert propagandists, political agents, advertising agents, and public speakers, lay and clerical, were requisitioned, and their combined work in agitation and enlistment was a triumphant success."

The person who wrote, in the Memoirs, the caption to the picture tells us that the poster was "placarded throughout the country", and that it helped.

[JamesMSTaylor]

Uncle George (sorry I do not know your name) that's an interesting post, also Martyn's observations too and the link to the Picture Post cover of 1st June 1940. When you trace the origins of that cover back it takes you to Leete's artwork for the London Opinion cover that he donated to the IWM in 1917. It is probably a re-touched image of the artwork.

So how did such an image appear in the 'War Memoirs of David Lloyd George' of 1938 ? The key, I think, is that the publication was designed specifically as a popular edition and the publisher selected was the Odhams Press. The Studio Manager of Odhams Press was a remarkable character called Edwin Embleton who designed some posters and had an excellent eye for striking and popular designs. Before the outbreak of WWII Churchill appointed him as the Head of the General Production Division and he oversaw the production of the remarkable poster campaigns of the period - Careless Talk Costs Lives, Coughs and Sneezes Spread Diseases, Lend a Hand on the Land, Make Do and Mend, Is Your Journey Necessary and Dig For Victory among others. Returing to the 1938 DLG publication in the search for an image that would engage with the public some twenty years after the end of WWI Embleton and his colleagues would have searched the collections of the IWM and found there a very, very large collection. As there were so few images that would be featured in the 1938 publication one stood out - 'YCNY'. For some unexplained reason after Leete donated the artwork to the IWM it was categorized as part of the poster collection and at some point assigned a PST number (PST2735). Many, many authors and publishers have mistakenly used Leete's artwork for LO as if it was an actual poster. A example of this misreferencing can be found in Maurice Rickards book 'Posters of the First World War' (Evelyn, Admams & Mackay, 1968). See page 11. 'It must be said that the British poster scene was wholly unredeemed. Alfred Leete...came up with a novelty - Lord Kitchener himself [illus. 6] Your Country needs You is by no means a major work, but its posterly simplicity has impact far in excess of its contemporaries. His lordship's accusing finger has haunted Britons since they first saw it...' However, the illustration [6] used by Rickards in the book is not a poster - it is the artwork for the cover of LO!

J

[JamesMSTaylor]

A thought re Kitchener as a 'great poster'. This can be taken literally, or also interpreted as Kitchener, through his wide ranging exertions as Secretary of State of War, being acknowledged as a 'great promoter' for recruitment.

J

[Uncle George]

Boulanger was, I learn, an artist, one who created admired posters. In this context I would guess that Ll.G meant that K was a great poster in the literal sense. Margot Asquith's 'Great War Diary' was published, I believe, yesterday. In previews her opinion of K has been made known:

"...slow and cumbersome in mind (totally ignorant of most things)."

Not a big fan then.

[JamesMSTaylor]

Sadly we do not have K of K's opinion of Lady A. Although I thought that she later credited the witty line to her daughter?

J

[Uncle George]

Sadly we do not have K of K's opinion of Lady A. Although I thought that she later credited the witty line to her daughter?

J

I didn't know that. Ll.G says only, "A lady with a pernicious gift for stinging epigram..."

Damning with faint praise, Ll.G goes on to say, "Lord Kitchener may or may not have been a great man, but he certainly was not a small one..."

But I think we're straying off topic...

[JamesMSTaylor]

LOL. Great to have you posting.

J

[Seany]

There is even a version of it here

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AE1ct5yEuVY

[funfly]

seany,

crumbs, you have dug deep for that one

[funfly]

As an artist, I continue to be fascinated by the image itself and the posting of the image from the War Memoirs book has added another question; where the hell this this particular image come from? Obviously available in the late 1930s and credited to the IWM it is very like the original Leete artwork but, as I have previously said, not exactly the same.

I notice our image on the BBC website the other day and, low and behold, you can detect the fold lines on it. If anyone wants to be an 'expert' on any examples anywhere just look for the fold lines and it is surprising how many times they are in there somewhere which generally means that the image has been filched from the IWM image.

As James rightly said the other day, the IWM rarely get the original drawing or poster out and it would be nice if they did this. I am fortunate that the IWM let me have (sold to me) a detailed scan of the original artwork but I don't have a scan of the poster from them, only a facsimile.

I remain intrigued by the quantities that might have been actually printed. Figures as low as 2,000 have been suggested but, talking to an expert the other day a figure in the region of 15,000 was suggested as more likely. The fact is, of course, that we shall never know. Although we still have websites proclaiming: "Government records and photographs from the period reveal...that this was, in fact, an imagined poster." It seems that we all have to accept that the poster was widely circulated (even JT seems to accept this now). It looks as if the one currently on sale was removed from a wall rather than unused and I would be surprised if any unused ones ever existed (don't know about the IWM one).

From all our research we now know that there is little evidence that this one poster was a major contributor to the recruitment campaign. However, there is good evidence that, far from being an imagined poster, it was well distributed around the country but it was only one of millions of others and the effect must be considered collectively with all forms of persuasion used at the time. The name of 'Kitchener' is indelibly linked to some 2.5 million recruits and there seems good cause to consider that his name/his image may well have been considered in the same breath - the man on the poster was the catalyst not necessarily the piece of paper.

Getting back to poor old Kitchener himself, he did seem to have a bad press but you have to consider the motives of those who were inspired to write about him. Undoubtedly he was a 'character' and maybe some of what reported was correct but was he 'of his time'? I have had quite a bit of correspondence from his family who are at great pains to put a different spin on him especially when he was a younger man, am image of a family loving (and at one time lady loving) character has been painted to me. His nieces kept diaries of the times he was with them which paint a different picture of the man whose image we have been reflecting on over the last 480 posts. It's history again we, including all the 'experts', only know what we have been told, none of us can offer first hand information.

Hope I havn't bored you with my ponderings.

Martyn

[Uncle George]

The Memoirs were originally published in six volumes, between 1933 and 1936, published by Nicholson and Watson. Is it known if that image is to be found there, in addition to in the 1938 two-volume edition? I assume not, from what James has told us about Edwin Embleton.

[JamesMSTaylor]

Short captions trying to sum up complex historical actions and events written against one image (WWI poster) in a publication invariably course muddles and misunderstandings.

The confusion surrounding Leete's artwork can be found across five decades in The Times newspaper, commencing with his obituary notice on Monday 19th June 1933 (the year that DLG's Memoirs first appeared): 'Leete died on Saturday at the age of 50. During the War he drew the famous Kitchener cartoon "Your King and Country Need You," for the recruiting campaign, and in recent years he was much in request for poster advertising'. This notice was transmitted to Australia and New York.

Many people find it close to impossible to separate out the official call to arms, the mass of Kitchener propaganda and Leete's memorable words and design.

J

[JamesMSTaylor]

Also worth adding that the Parliamentary Recruiting Committee records indicate that the largest number of posters produced in the war (in various formats) was 'Your King and Country Need You' with 290,000 circulated.

J

[funfly]

Many people find it close to impossible to separate out the official call to arms, the mass of Kitchener propaganda and Leete's memorable words and design.

Thats possibly the best summary so far.

[funfly]

It would appear that the illustration in the 'Memoirs' book came from the Original Leete drawing now in the archives of the IWM.

Detail of the moustache end from the three options:

The image in the 'Memoirs' has an upward curl identical to the artwork. When the plate for the London Opinion was made the curl was given a distinct downward curl.

The 'Memoirs' The London Opinion The original Leete artwork.

[funfly]

There remain troublesome differences with the "memoirs' image and the Leete artwork.

Despite some areas being identical the cap is certainly different - the 'Memoirs' one being larger to the left.

The 'Your country needs you' text is identical on both and the 'Memoirs' one shows the same variations as the drawing so this hasn't been redone.

But the Leete signature has changed position and on the 'Memoirs' one is higher - nearer the sleeve than the artwork one.

(The position of the Leete signature on the London Opinion front page is exactly the same as the IWM original artwork not as the 'Memoirs' image.)

The 'Memoirs' image shows no indication of the fold marks and close scrutiny does not show that they have been touched in. In addition the surrounding area is clean and close observation does not reveal any areas of retouching.

So, to sum up so far, this is extremely close to the original artwork but some things are different and it has not been taken from the London Observer nor the poster.

The best bet is that it is a very carefully done tracing.

[JamesMSTaylor]

Excellent forensic work Martyn.

On a related track does anyone know the whereabouts of an example of the reproduction of the pointy finger LO cover on fine art paper that the magazine offered for sale?

J

[johntaylor]

Just to mention that you can now buy an original copy of the iconic Kitchener poster - providing you've got an estimated £15,000. It's in a huge sale of WWI recruiting posters by Onslows, details of which are given in the online catalogue here: http://www.onslows.co.uk/Catalogues/ps090714/page006.html

The posters are being auctioned on July 9 and a large number were on display at the Chalke Valley History Festival over the weekend.

I don't have any commercial interest in this but thought pals would be interested to know.

All the best,

John

[JamesMSTaylor]

Should fetch a lot more John considering the timing and the number of well funded war museums around the world. But we'll all know on the 9th.

J

[JamesMSTaylor]

Checking DLG War Memoirs in the British Library it turns out it was not Edwin Embleton who selected the pointy finger image of K of K but the publishers Ivor Nicholson & Watson. As it appears in the first edition of 1933 opposite the title page of volume II. The design relates to the artwork as described by Martyn.

J

[funfly]

Artwork obviously supplied by the IWM as credited but not, as we have discovered, the Leete artwork as we know it.

So it's another image - where is it?

James has the good contacts with IWM, can they locate it?

M

[JamesMSTaylor]

I'll have a crack at it. From experience the IWM records are a bit of a muddle!

J

[funfly]

In the Mail today:

"Mr Bogue added that he had thought there were only three of the Kitchener recruitment posters – until Lady (Emma) Kitchener remarked that she had one too."

No news as yet as to what the kitchener poster at auction made, well I didn't get it!

[funfly]

The kitchener poster went to a private buyer for

£27,544.00

You heard it here first.

Mart

[Uncle George]

Some lines of analysis from Ll.G's 'War Memoirs' which I hope will be of interest:

"...those who were responsible for placing the striking portrait of Lord Kitchener's strong face on the appeals to fight for 'King and Country' had a genius for publicity. It was eminently the face of a commander. The resolution of its firm lines, the mixture of calm penetration and determination in the steady eyes, the intelligence of the broad square brow, all gave an impression of irresistible strength that inspired everyone who saw it. And in those stormy days who was there who did not gaze on those granite features with a confidence of the kind that led the nation to heights of sacrifice? Kitchener was cast in nature's mould for a hero."