WW1 Military Motors - 1916 set x 50 cards

[David Filsell]

I was thinking specifically of Great War application. However I suppose the use of tanks in later wars indicates that the military were convinced of their value!

[Lancashire Fusilier]

I am no expert on tanks, but In view of your estimate of losses, their unreliability, are there serious questions to asked about their real importance in war?

David,

As Scalyback has said, much depends on when and where the Tanks were used.

My guesstimate of 60% losses related initially to the First Battle of Cambrai, which remember was the Tanks first real outing, and I am sure much was learned about tank warfare from just that one battle, and again, if you refer to the book I mentioned earlier ' The Tank Corps ', after Cambrai there were some superb Tank victories by the Tank Corps, which was still very much in it's infancy during the latter part of WW1.

The ' Tank ' concept was also brand new, as was tank development and technology, and in the space of just 20+ years, we went from the WW1 Mark IV Tank to the superb WW2 ' Churchill ' Tank, 40 tons, 350 hp of deadly force.

Many of the Tanks initial failings during WW1, led directly to some superb Tank victories in the latter part of WW1, during WW2 and beyond.

Regards,

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

Regards,

[David Filsell]

Noted, and I do not disagree. On the other hand, I think most experts would agree that it was the amount of armour the allies were able to deploy which made the difference in WW2 - not quality.

[Modelmaker]

A fascinating subject, however not completely black and white.

I am no military historian, being self taught, but I have an enthusiastic interest.

Tanks first use on the Somme in August 1916, were at the insistence of Haig....not quite the hide-bound "butcher" oft depicted. He was all for a way of winning without excessive loss of life.

However the tanks were untried, mechanically unreliable and in insufficient numbers. The "dribs and drabs" that were used had some effect, instances where tanks were used gained limited success. However there was no real idea on their use, it was very much a "work in progress".....tactics were devised when mistakes occurred..... Commanders did not fully understand them, others were downright "anti".

As the tanks drew artillery fire, the supporting infantry had (reasonably) a dislike of them as it made uncomfortable to be in their company. The terrain was unsuited to tank movement, though it was thought (at the time), they could cover shell torn land, many bogged down and were then destroyed by shelling.

Initially tanks did have a demoralising affect on the enemy, but they soon learned how to counter the threat, with planned artillery batteries positioned to best effect.

That the Germans did not consider the tanks a serious threat is illustrated in fact that they were slow to build their own, some units were formed but the A7V was a lumbering beast, with a tendency to turn over....they preferred to use captured tanks.

As designs improved, reliability was still an issue, but the main problem was the terrain. Once a breakthrough developed then they did come into their own. Cambrai was an example of planning from previous experiences....harder going, less artillery bombardment, more open terrain. Cambrai failed predominantly as the initial success was not followed up.

It is easy to look back with hindsight at the failings, but it was new technology, untried and misunderstood.

It must be mentioned that Germany understood their value much later, as they developed their own (improved) tactics for use in WW2....Unfortunately, financial constraints led development of tanks to be starved of investment. Lessons learned were not put into place and a number of constraints made the production of tanks a hit and miss affair. No real planning of effort to produce a viable tank was in place prior to WW2, a hotch potch of different makes, under gunned, with light armour and under powered with unreliable engines were being produced. As factories were producing these tanks and development would take years to come to fruition.....(design, mock ups, drawings, production schedules all add up)....building the same old stuff had to continue. It wasn't until the late 40's that a viable option was produced.......the Comet.

That the US could produce and supply tanks at a greater rate made a difference to the balance of losses, the Allies could sustain a higher loss rate of equipment.

Was the tank a first war winning invention....the jury is still out, but it is doubtful.

Though if used used in greater quantities, developed to iron out the weaknesses and proper tactics understood, then it may have been, however they were introduced too early and in too few numbers, with mixed results.

An interesting book is 'Band of Brigands' by Christy Campbell, which describes a lot of the shortcomings, plus the political intrigues that caused a lot of trouble in the development of the tank.

Here endeth the lesson.

George.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

mines created problems, so quite often, in armoured / scout cars, sand bags were placed on the floor to absorb the explosion.

With tanks, in general they would not show the underside very often, but were vulnerable when going up trench sides.

George,

The Germans soon realized that the underside of the Tank was that much more vulnerable, and improvised methods of exploding anti-tank mines under approaching Tanks.

In the attached photograph, the Germans are erecting small ' palisades ' under which explosive mines have been planted, which will detonate under a Tank as it passes over the palisades.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

With the coming of Spring in 1918, the dismantling and salvaging of both Tanks ' F6 - Feu d'artificer ' and ' G21 - Grasshopper II ', which had lain in Bourlon Woods since the previous November, could begin, and in the attached interesting photograph we can see that ' F6 - Feu d'artificer ' has been completely dismantled, and ' G21 - Grasshopper II ' is now on it's side partially dismantled.

This photograph matches with that shown in post # 4430, in which ' G21 - Grasshopper II ' is pictured on it's side and clearly showing the Tank's underside, and in this photograph ' G21 - Grasshopper II ' on it's side, is seen from inside the Tank, and we can still clearly see the front underside armour-plates ( marked with an arrow ) which were blown outwards by the force of the massive internal explosion which destroyed ' G21 - Grasshopper II '.

British officers supervising the Tanks' dismantling and salvaging are seen far right, and in the background is the Bourlon Wood ' Pavillion '.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Seen in several of the photographs relating to the Tanks ' F6 - Feu d'artificer ' and ' G21 - Grasshopper II ' in Bourlon Woods, was the building known locally as the ' Pavillion du Garde ', seen here in a more idyllic setting, during peacetime.

The date of this picture postcard is not shown, and looks to be pre-WW1. I have not been able to confirm if the building still stands today, as not only was there fierce fighting in Bourlon Wood during WW1, but also during WW2, when I suspect the damage to the wood and the local area was even greater, and this building may well have been completely destroyed during WW2.

Perhaps, someone familiar with Bourlon Wood can confirm if the " Pavillion ' still stands.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Not only were British Tanks and their crews endangered by German Anti-Tank Guns and Mines, but also from the fearsome German Flamethrowers ' Flammenwerfer ', first introduced in February 1915.

Invented by German Engineer Richard Fiedler in collaboration with Major Herman Reddeman, three types of Flamethrowers were in service with the German Army during WW1, the larger stationary unit the ' Grosses Flammenwerfer ' or ' Grof 'operated from fixed positions by a 3 man crew, which propelled burning fuel oil for some 40 metres ( 120 feet ), and the portable backpack version the ' Kleines Flammenwerfer ' or ' Kleif ' operated by a 2 man crew, which propelled burning fuel oil for 18 metres ( 54 feet )

In 1917, a lighter portable German Flame Thrower the ' Wechselapparat ' or ' Wex ' was introduced.

It had a ' doughnut ' shaped fuel tank container with a spherical propellant tank in the centre, which was attached to discharge pipe/lance and flow nozzle, all contained in a portable backpack

German Flame Thrower units were typically part of the ' Garde Reserve Pioniere Rgt. - Totenkopf Pioniere ', who wore a skull & cross bones ' Death's Head ' insignia on their sleeve.

The first photograph, shows a British Mark IV ' Female ' Tank under attack from German ' Wex ' Flamethrowers.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The German 3-man ' Grosses Flammenwerfer ' or ' Grof ' Flamethrower, which operated from fixed positions and propelled burning fuel oil for some 40 metres ( 120 feet ).

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

In this photograph taken on the Italian Front, we can see the complete German ' Grosses Flammenwerfer ' or ' Grof ' Flamethrower system, including both the liquid fuel oil storage cylinder and the cylinder containing the propellant comprising of pressurised air and carbon dioxide or nitrogen, which operated from fixed positions and propelled burning fuel oil for some 40 metres ( 120 feet ).

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

This photograph, taken by an official German War Photographer sometime in September 1918, again shows a British Mark IV Female Tank under attack from German flamethrowers.

It is possible, that the Mark IV Female Tank armed with only Lewis machine guns, as opposed to the ' Male ' Tank armed with both Lewis machine guns and a 6 pounder, was considered by the Germans to be an easier target to attack.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The German portable backpack flamethrower, the ' Kleines Flammenwerfer ' or ' Kleif ' operated by a 2 man crew, which propelled burning fuel oil for 18 metres ( 54 feet ). There was also another version of the ' Kleif ', with a larger capacity cylinder.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The German portable backpack flamethrower, the ' Kleines Flammenwerfer ' or ' Kleif ' operated by a 2 man crew, which propelled burning fuel oil for 18 metres ( 54 feet ). There was also another version of the ' Kleif ', with a larger capacity cylinder.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

A German Flamethrower Unit of the ' Garde Reserve Pioniere Rgt. - Totenkopf Pioniere ', note the skull & cross bones ' Death's Head ' insignia on their lower left sleeve, armed with the 1917, lighter portable German Flame Thrower the ' Wechselapparat ' or ' Wex ' Flammenwerfer, It had a distinctive ' doughnut ' shaped fuel oil tank with a spherical propellant tank in the centre, which was attached to discharge pipe/lance and flow nozzle, all carried in a portable backpack.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

A somewhat different view of the Mark IV Tanks ' F6 - Feu d'artificer ' and ' G21 - Grasshopper II ', lying in Bourlon Woods, to those previously posted.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Uncle George]

Here's a favourite photo - 'Tanks marching into Battle'.

It is to be found in Monash's 'The Australian Victories in France in 1918'.

[Modelmaker]

A somewhat different view of the Mark IV Tanks ' F6 - Feu d'artificer ' and ' G21 - Grasshopper II ', lying in Bourlon Woods, to those previously posted.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

An interesting view from this side, we have seen the underbelly plate blown out, but this shows the side plate has a distinctive bowed appearance with possibly a cracked part of the plate missing.

Thanks

George.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Here's a favourite photo - 'Tanks marching into Battle'.

Great photograph, and from the Tanks' silhouettes showing their front Driver's cab and the mid Commander's cab, the position of the sponsons, and the rear-side air intake vents, these are Mark V Tanks.

At the front is a Male Tank, followed by three Female Tanks.

The Male Tank had the larger sponsons carrying a 6 pounder and a Hotchkiss machine gun, and the Female Tank had the smaller sponsons each carrying 2 Hotchkiss machine guns.

The Mark V Tank first went into battle at Hamel in July 1918, and during 1918, 400 Mark V Tanks were produced, 200 Male Tanks and 200 Female Tanks.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

An interesting view from this side, we have seen the underbelly plate blown out, but this shows the side plate has a distinctive bowed appearance with possibly a cracked part of the plate missing.

That bowed front is significant, and along with the underbelly plates being blown out, it shows the sheer force of the massive internal explosion which destroyed ' G21 - Grasshopper II '.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

A nice series of coloured photographs showing details of the Imperial War Museum's German 1917 lighter portable Flamethrower the ' Wechselapparat ' or ' Wex ' Flammenwerfer.

The first two photographs show the complete ' Wex ' front and back.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The front and back of the wex's ' Doughnut ' shaped fuel oil storage tank, with the spherical propellant tank in the centre.

LF

IWM These images are reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The Wex's discharge Lance and reinforced supply pipe, and the flow valve.

LF

IWM These images are reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Here's a favourite photo - 'Tanks marching into Battle'.

It is to be found in Monash's 'The Australian Victories in France in 1918'.

Uncle George,

Here is a nice annotated drawing of a Mark V Male Tank as shown in your photograph, interestingly, there are firing ports for revolvers in both the Commander's cab and the Driver's cab.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[johnboy]

The air louvres look a bit vulnerable.

[Uncle George]

Uncle George

Here is a nice annotated drawing of a Mark V Male Tank as shown in your photograph, interestingly, there are firing ports for revolvers in both the Commander's cab and the Driver's cab.

LF

Thanks - very interesting. That photo in Monash's book - it has such a quality of movement and advance.