Postcards

[CorporalPunishment]

22 minutes ago, themonsstar said:

Not to sure on are Scottish Regiments or the date.

Top photo, Gordon Highlanders on the left, Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders on the right. Bottom photo, Gordon Highlanders.   Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

Particularly fine view of the Gordon Highlander in a Scottish pattern, blue patrol jacket of that era. Thank you for posting it.

Edited 13 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[themonsstar]

Slightly earlier War 

[Sepoy]

1 hour ago, themonsstar said:

General Service Corps Officer 

No2

He could be a member of a Volunteer Battalion (the follow on from the Volunteer Training Corps). He has an interesting shoulder strap - is it readable in the original photograph?

Sepoy

[FROGSMILE]

The GS ‘List’ cap badge (GSC was other ranks) was also worn by officers of the Labour Corps when it was first formed.

[charlie962]

GS man doesn't have any obvious sleeve or shoulder rank badges ?

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

GS man doesn't have any obvious sleeve or shoulder rank badges ?

Yes I’m wondering if he might be some kind of press correspondent, they often wear/wore lettered shoulder slides on officers uniform.

[GWF1967]

Bandsman John Clarke. 1144 Irish Guards. 1905.  India Medal with Clasps. N.E.F. 1891.

 Enlisted 1886. Aged 14.  Rfm. 3954. 4th King's Royal Rifle Corps.  Transferred Irish Guards 1901.  

15/6/07 Forfeits 4th Good Conduct Badge.  8 Days Confined to Barracks.   " Drunk in the streets when proceeding to Buckingham Palace for Duty". 

 Served overseas 1916/17/18. 

11/11/1918. Forfeits 4th G.C. Badge. 6 Days C/B.   "Drunk when playing with the Band at Buckingham Palace".

Discharged. 20/2/1919 - 32yrs Service.

Edited 14 December , 2019 by GWF1967

[Muerrisch]

Many thanks. Exactly the sort of man who the drum major pointed to, telling the young drummers not to copy him.

Which they then did.

 

A drunken bass drummer fairly easy to hear!

 

I assume that he was among the earliest IG men, very soon after founding.

 

I note his "staff cap" worn briefly by the band and drums of the Foot Guards.

 

Question: was he actually a bandsman? I ask because he appears to be dressed as a drummer. The GC badges are in the unique Guards drummer style, worn against the grain of the sleeve braiding. He is temporarily in possession of four!

 

Photo made my day!

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Many thanks. Exactly the sort of man who the drum major pointed to, telling the young drummers not to copy him.

Which they then did.

 

A drunken bass drummer fairly easy to hear!

 

I assume that he was among the earliest IG men, very soon after founding.

 

I note his "staff cap" worn briefly by the band and drums of the Foot Guards.

 

Question: was he actually a bandsman? I ask because he appears to be dressed as a drummer. The GC badges are in the unique Guards drummer style, worn against the grain of the sleeve braiding. He is temporarily in possession of four!

 

Photo made my day!

He is a member of the band [erratum - incorrect - see succeeding post below), although I can understand why his appearance is confusing.  At that time Foot Guards band tunics were embellished with double gold lace on their tunics at considerable expense.  When their bands were returned to full dress between the wars the tunic pattern was revised to remove the lace as a cost saving measure.

 

NB.  There was also variation in the design of the cuff and arm embellishments, with the Grenadiers having a different (‘Swedish’) pattern.  See image below.  Note the reversed good conduct badges, in gold lace, on the tunic.  Following WW1 the gold lace was removed from the chest of the band tunic, leaving just the wings and shoulder straps still used today.  Interestingly the drum major was dressed with the superior gold lace then worn by the band rather than the worsted lace of his drummers, as he still does today.  These differences reflect the grandeur and expense of the epoch that was ended by WW1.

 

Edited 14 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Thank you. I think that I see Clarke wearing a time-beater's black arm band, worn by the Grenadiers to commemorate  the death of King Charles II.

If it is not a crease or a shadow, seemingly the other Foot Guards copied Grenadier custom. A cursory search of my references is not helpful.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

Thank you. I think that I see Clarke wearing a time-beater's black arm band, worn by the Grenadiers to commemorate  the death of King Charles II.

If it is not a crease or a shadow, seemingly the other Foot Guards copied Grenadier custom. A cursory search of my references is not helpful.

Edit:  As you were!  I think I have inadvertently misdirected you.  It seems that only Bass and Tenor drummers wore the gold chevron lace on the arms, because when on parade as part of the staff band, as opposed to with their fellow drummers, they wore gold laced tunics, in lieu of the worsted.  You can see this when the whole band is on view.  It makes the drummers stand out clearly when marching as an integral part of the band, as opposed to among the corps of drums.  I had not spotted this before, but it is clear.  Had you not questioned it I would not have ever identified this idiosyncrasy, thank you. I’m assuming that this was because when in concert, or on tour, the band was not necessarily accompanied by the entire corps of drums, but took as few to provide percussion accompaniment.  I have edited the post above accordingly.

 

Edited 14 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Jools mckenna]

As we are on the topic on bandsmen/drummers

2 RMLI drummers

[FROGSMILE]

A super image, Jools, thank you for posting it.  Pictures of RMLI drummers are relatively rare and hard to find.  The attached colour photos of a drummers tunic show a later pattern than that seen in the black and white photos, but serves to illustrate the unique, RMLI pattern drummers lace of blue miniature stars on white that represent the ‘Garter star’ (as also worn on helmets).  The lace is sadly no longer seen.

Interestingly the RMLI and RMA both had a rather strange band tunic with a vertical gold lace strip running either side of the join (fastened by hooks and eyes) that terminated in large eyes in the corners of the skirt.  Again, decent sized images of this garment are hard to come by.  It did not survive that long after the end of WW1.

 

 

 

Edited 14 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[GWF1967]

11 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Many thanks. Exactly the sort of man who the drum major pointed to, telling the young drummers not to copy him.

Which they then did.

 

A drunken bass drummer fairly easy to hear!

 

I assume that he was among the earliest IG men, very soon after founding.

 

I note his "staff cap" worn briefly by the band and drums of the Foot Guards.

 

Question: was he actually a bandsman? I ask because he appears to be dressed as a drummer. The GC badges are in the unique Guards drummer style, worn against the grain of the sleeve braiding. He is temporarily in possession of four!

 

Photo made my day!

I previously posted the group on another thread but for your enjoyment here it is again. "The Band of His Majesty's Irish Guards" 1905.  The picture is 21" x 24" and framed so hard to get good clear detail.  I though the picture was a copy of the one on the I.G's Wiki page, but have been playing spot the difference and discovered mine to be different, so one of a series taken on the same day.

 

 The men had previously served with, or were poached from a variety of regiments in 1901 -  Lancers, Queens, Royal Artillery etc. I have traced all but one man so far.

Several re-enlisted at the outbreak of war, mostly to the Irish Guards.

 

 A better picture of John Clarke suggests a crease rather than an armband. I guess as the only two blemishes on his record relate to service at the Palace he was no Monarchist!

 

Picture 3. shows Cpl Russell Bell ( Identified this morning; Many thanks corisande ), who purchased his discharge in 1908, then enlisted as Pte. 12276. 4th Manchester Regiment. He survived the war; all 6' - 3 1/2" of him.

Edited 14 December , 2019 by GWF1967

[GWF1967]

L.  Charles Hazard Hassell. O.B.E.  (1864-1935).  Bandmaster 1900-29.    Witness to the crimes of John Clarke.   Overseas.  France. 29/7/1916. WO.I. 523. I.Guards.   Commissioned Lt. 1/3/199

R.  5th Viscount De Vesci. (1881-1958).   France.  Ma j/ Lt.Col. Ivo Richard De Vesci.  I.Guards.

[FROGSMILE]

Great to see the much enhanced images, thank you.

I agree that the apparent arm band thought to be on John Clarke’s arm is in fact a crease, and can confirm that he is a ‘drummer’ wearing a ‘state dress’ tunic.  The drummers were marked out when among the band by the chevrons on their arms, that were not worn by the musicians of the band.

 

Edited 14 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

May we have clarity of Clarke's appointment please, as per the records: drummer or bandsman?

If I were Clarke I would strive for the drummer pay, although Band "Playing Out" engagements brought in good perks.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

May we have clarity of Clarke's appointment please, as per the records: drummer or bandsman?

If I were Clarke I would strive for the drummer pay, although Band "Playing Out" engagements brought in good perks.

I’m sorry that things got a bit confused.  The chevrons on the arms were worn only by members of the drums, but when integral to the band they wore a gold laced state tunic, as seen.  Ergo he was a drummer, I don’t think there’s any doubt of that.

Edited 16 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[PHalsall]

This is my grandfather, James Irwin 1348 1/4 Cheshire Regiment, later 200141 Imperial Camel Corps. The family understand this to be a photograph taken of him in his family back garden at 113 Rodney Street, Birkenhead in his Territorial uniform just before the start of the war. His battalion being a Yeomanry outfit explains the bandolier, but anything else that can be learned from his uniform and equipment would be very welcome.. The rifle is of particular interest as it seems atypical. I have read that at some point in 1915, while still in England in preparation/ reserve they were issued with Japanese rifles for a short while, though I am not suggesting that this is one of them. 

[GreyC]

Hello gentlemen,

can anybody identify the place this sign was situated?

Thank you!

GreyC

[Muerrisch]

56 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m sorry that things got a bit confused.  The chevrons on the arms were worn only by members of the drums, but when integral to the band they wore a gold laced state tunic, as seen.  Ergo he was a drummer, I don’t think there’s any doubt of that.

 

I am far from confused. There is indeed room for doubt.

Let me try again.

 

The OP of the topic wrote "Bandsman John Clarke. 1144 Irish Guards" It seems reasonable to wonder how he was actually carried on the books, particularly as the OP has apparently looked at the records, not only the photograph.

 

The poster is not given lightly to error.

[Toby Brayley]

1 hour ago, PHalsall said:

This is my grandfather, James Irwin 1348 1/4 Cheshire Regiment, later 200141 Imperial Camel Corps. 

 

Wonderful picture, thank you. He is certainly a Territorial Force Battalion of the Cheshire Regiment. He is not Yeomanry but TF hence components of the 1903 Bandolier Equipment (5 pocket bandolier and X2 15 round MkII cartridge Pockets), he is armed with a Charger Loading Lee Enfield (conversions of the earlier "Long Lees") and P1888 Bayonet all further evidence of the TF. 

Edited 16 December , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[GWF1967]

28 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

 

I am far from confused. There is indeed room for doubt.

Let me try again.

 

The OP of the topic wrote "Bandsman John Clarke. 1144 Irish Guards" It seems reasonable to wonder how he was actually carried on the books, particularly as the OP has apparently looked at the records, not only the photograph.

 

The poster is not given lightly to error.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. 

[GWF1967]

1 hour ago, PHalsall said:

This is my grandfather, James Irwin 1348 1/4 Cheshire Regiment, later 200141 Imperial Camel Corps. The family understand this to be a photograph taken of him in his family back garden at 113 Rodney Street, Birkenhead in his Territorial uniform just before the start of the war. His battalion being a Yeomanry outfit explains the bandolier, but anything else that can be learned from his uniform and equipment would be very welcome.. The rifle is of particular interest as it seems atypical. I have read that at some point in 1915, while still in England in preparation/ reserve they were issued with Japanese rifles for a short while, though I am not suggesting that this is one of them. 

I may be wrong, (oft, according to Mrs.67)  but your Grandfather appears to feature back left of my group photo.  "E. Coy 1/4th Cheshires. Coed Helen Camp 1912" (Caernarfon).

MLE rifles in the foreground.