Postcards

[GWF1967]

4 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

 

Actually not a pretty sight for followers of this elite Royal regiment. I itch to smarten them up!

Apologies; another Kitchener recruit.

Liverpool photographer.   Father and Son.   Leather belt on the L/Cpl. R.W.F badge worn at the lapel by the father.

[Tomb1302]

French postcards generate little interest in here, but, here's another:

Edited 26 October , 2019 by Tomb1302

[Jools mckenna]

A very relaxed wartime group. Out of the 5 tunics on show, 4 are simplified SD.

 

Not sure on regiment but is their regiment the Prince of Wales' Own Civil Service Rifles?

 

I hope I don't trigger Muerrisch's itch!

 

 

Edited 26 October , 2019 by Jools mckenna

[FROGSMILE]

Yes, 15th London Regiment (Civil Service Rifles).

 

Edited 26 October , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Jools mckenna]

Thanks Frogsmile for the confirmation

 

Nice to get a cap badge correct for a change!

[CorporalPunishment]

40 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes, 15th London Regiment (Civil Service Rifles).

 

That is the badge of the Denbighshire Hussars, the badge of the Civil Service Rifles was blackened, not bronzed.  Pete.

[GWF1967]

R.F.A.  Can anyone tell me the rank/position/title for the combination of badges on show please.

[GWF1967]

T - R.F.A. Gloster Group. 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, CorporalPunishment said:

That is the badge of the Denbighshire Hussars, the badge of the Civil Service Rifles was blackened, not bronzed.  Pete.

Yes, I agree Pete, although I’m not sure if it was sometimes blackened bronze, as well as blackened gilt metal.  I took it for convenience from the Wikipedia link to the Civil Service Rifles.

 

Edited 27 October , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, GWF1967 said:

R.F.A.  Can anyone tell me the rank/position/title for the combination of badges on show please.

 

After 1915 he’s a staff sergeant with an artificer trade suffix, of which there were several, e.g. ‘Metalsmith’, etc.  The full list was printed in the contemporary KRs.

Edited 26 October , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[GWF1967]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

After 1915 he’s a staff sergeant with an artificer trade suffix, of which there were several, e.g. ‘Metalsmith’, etc.  The full list was printed in the contemporary KRs.

Thank you.

[FROGSMILE]

20 minutes ago, GWF1967 said:

Thank you.

Glad to help.  See enclosed the list from Clothing Regulations 1914.  The relevant badge starts with Armourers (AOC).  The list was amended during the war.  RGA units in particular had significant numbers of men so qualified.

 

Edited 27 October , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[robins2]

4 hours ago, Tomb1302 said:

French postcards generate little interest in here, but, here's another:

quite a variance of head gear, especially he gent in rear with over size beret??

[Tomb1302]

1 hour ago, robins2 said:

quite a variance of head gear, especially he gent in rear with over size beret??

Thanks for responding @robins2.

 

I'm fairly certain it's a cap worn by the chasseurs during the war, but, you'd have to ask @battle of loos to confirm that.

 

I'm curious as to what the man bottom left is wearing as well!

 

And I must add how much I enjoy the variety in plates and bowls as well!

Edited 27 October , 2019 by Tomb1302

[battle of loos]

good morning,

 

Here are some details of this photo :

 

 

1 : this soldier wears one on pants

2 : this soldier wears velvet pants

3 : freshly perceived "bleu horizon" outfit with its "mle 1891/15" cap.

4 : the "tarte" was used by the infantry from the summer of 1915.
removed thereafter, as did the kepi when the helmet arrived (September 1915) and the official commissioning of the "bonnet de police" .

The "tarte" will be kept by the Alpine troops.

we are here in the presence of an infantryman and not an "chasseur alpin".

the "chasseur alpin" retain the dark blue colour.

5 : our man has a "capote mle 1914 du 4ème type" period November 1915.
the regimental number (practice of spring 1915) can be seen on the collar.

 

conclusion:

photo taken at the end of 1915 see early 1916.

 

if someone can read the regimental number, it will be possible to locate the area.

 

regards

 

michel

[Pat Atkins]

Is that the VC ribbon? Would explain his central position in the group.

[FROGSMILE]

16 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Thank you! Barter VC in centre of this pre-May 1915 group full of interest. Four RSMs in the group and a RQMS.

The third portrait shows the very unusual [for then] LMG brass badge. A rare sighting.

It is an intriguing photo and following your comments I’ve been poring over it again.  Clearly it precedes the later 1915 changes to warrant rank and associated badges.  It is striking to me that only one of the sergeant majors wears a Sam Browne and, unusually, open collar officer-style service dress.  Clearly he is sergeant major of a regular battalion, so what are the others?  Also, examining the man who at first sight seems to be a QMS (seated far right), I can see that he is in fact the Acting-Sergeant Major (ASM) of a TF battalion wearing the unique badge comprising crown over four inverted stripes.  All-in-all it is a real snapshot in time and shows the old style badges soon to be amended following the changes implemented from late in 1915.  The ASM was of course abolished as part of that process.

Edited 27 October , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Agreed. A lovely snapshot. The ASM [being a substantive colour sergeant] became a lucky man in that he was promoted two ranks "just like that" by edict, to become a fully fledged badges WO Class I.

Of course Barter himself was a Colour sergeant appointed CSM, about to become a WO Class II CSM. Ultimately commissioned if I remember correctly.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Agreed. A lovely snapshot. The ASM [being a substantive colour sergeant] became a lucky man in that he was promoted two ranks "just like that" by edict, to become a fully fledged badges WO Class I.

Of course Barter himself was a Colour sergeant appointed CSM, about to become a WO Class II CSM. Ultimately commissioned if I remember correctly.

I wish we could know the names of those in the photo in addition to Barter.  I’d love to learn what the various posts of the sergeant majors (incl the ASM) were.

[Muerrisch]

Wiki says, and I have no reason to disbelieve:

He was born in Cardiff. He was 24 years old, and a company sergeant-major in the Special Reserve, The Royal Welch Fusiliers, British Army, attached to the 1st Battalion, The Royal Welch Fusiliers during the First World War when the following deed took place for which he was awarded the VC.

On 16 May 1915 at Festubert, France, Company Sergeant-Major Barter, when in the first line of German trenches, called for volunteers to enable him to extend our line, and with the eight men who responded, he attacked the German position with bombs, capturing three German officers, 102 men and 500 yards of their trenches. He subsequently found and cut 11 of the enemy's mine leads situated about 20 yards apart.^[1]

He was commissioned a Second Lieutenant in the Special Reserve, The Royal Welch Fusiliers, 26 August 1915.

 

He received his VC at the Palace wearing colour sergeant badges, and was sent on recruiting duties for a while. The correct WO II badges post-May 1915 probably never touched his sleeve before commissioning!

I think we can be sure that the photo was taken at Home in June or July 1915. As to the group, I think best bet would be primarily 3rd SR battalion [with a regular RSM and RQMS] at Home, with TF [not 4th, who were in France, one of the earliest TF units] representation. The three extra SMs may be one each from 5th 6th and 7th battalions.. However, just and only just possibly these are in fact CSMs quick to rebadge as new WO IIs. Which leaves the regular SM slow to rebadge. Doubtful indeed.

One other little known fact: when SR battalions grew to 2000 men or so in the early expansion, they were allowed two each of RSMs and RQMSs. This in ACIs as I recall.

Edited 27 October , 2019 by Muerrisch

[58 Div Mule]

8 hours ago, battle of loos said:

good morning,

 

Here are some details of this photo :

 

 

1 : this soldier wears one on pants

2 : this soldier wears velvet pants

3 : freshly perceived "bleu horizon" outfit with its "mle 1891/15" cap.

4 : the "tarte" was used by the infantry from the summer of 1915.
removed thereafter, as did the kepi when the helmet arrived (September 1915) and the official commissioning of the "bonnet de police" .

The "tarte" will be kept by the Alpine troops.

we are here in the presence of an infantryman and not an "chasseur alpin".

the "chasseur alpin" retain the dark blue colour.

5 : our man has a "capote mle 1914 du 4ème type" period November 1915.
the regimental number (practice of spring 1915) can be seen on the collar.

 

conclusion:

photo taken at the end of 1915 see early 1916.

 

if someone can read the regimental number, it will be possible to locate the area.

 

regards

 

michel

 

[58 Div Mule]

The soldier seated at the extreme left of the photo seems to have something akin to the British "cap comforter" was this common in the French army?

 

58DM.

[Muerrisch]

I am always struck by the apparent old ages of French groups. Many of them I suppose would be reservists early in the war, called from plough, office or factory.

They inspire pity, so many, so very many, perished or were maimed.

We will remember them.

[Sepoy]

To support the addition of French postcards to this thread, here are a few of the better ones in my collection.

Unfortunately, my knowledge of the WW1 French Army is not as good as it should be, so I look forward to seeing the comments.

Sepoy

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Wiki says, and I have no reason to disbelieve:

He was born in Cardiff. He was 24 years old, and a company sergeant-major in the Special Reserve, The Royal Welch Fusiliers, British Army, attached to the 1st Battalion, The Royal Welch Fusiliers during the First World War when the following deed took place for which he was awarded the VC.

On 16 May 1915 at Festubert, France, Company Sergeant-Major Barter, when in the first line of German trenches, called for volunteers to enable him to extend our line, and with the eight men who responded, he attacked the German position with bombs, capturing three German officers, 102 men and 500 yards of their trenches. He subsequently found and cut 11 of the enemy's mine leads situated about 20 yards apart.^[1]

He was commissioned a Second Lieutenant in the Special Reserve, The Royal Welch Fusiliers, 26 August 1915.

 

He received his VC at the Palace wearing colour sergeant badges, and was sent on recruiting duties for a while. The correct WO II badges post-May 1915 probably never touched his sleeve before commissioning!

I think we can be sure that the photo was taken at Home in June or July 1915. As to the group, I think best bet would be primarily 3rd SR battalion [with a regular RSM and RQMS] at Home, with TF [not 4th, who were in France, one of the earliest TF units] representation. The three extra SMs may be one each from 5th 6th and 7th battalions.. However, just and only just possibly these are in fact CSMs quick to rebadge as new WO IIs. Which leaves the regular SM slow to rebadge. Doubtful indeed.

One other little known fact: when SR battalions grew to 2000 men or so in the early expansion, they were allowed two each of RSMs and RQMSs. This in ACIs as I recall.

I think you are right that it was probably taken at the 3rd SR lines, by then already at Litherland I believe.  Before the rank and badge changes both CSgt and CSM were wearing the same badge of crown over 3-stripes as you know, so it’s difficult to determine what rank Barton was representing at his VC Investiture, but my guess is the latter.

As regards the other sergeant majors, like you I doubt that they are wearing new badges as CSMs, I don’t think mixed dress (ranks) would have been permitted as it would have been a recipe for immense confusion within the Bn HQ and Sergeants’ Mess.  More likely they are perhaps from the various battalions forming up, although it seems odd that there’s also an ASM with old badges present.  I suspect that the differential is that he had no warrant (perhaps through being too old) whilst the others had received warrants.  It’s a well known photo so I should think that there’s a key somewhere.

Edited 27 October , 2019 by FROGSMILE