Toby Brayley Posted 11 December , 2019 Share Posted 11 December , 2019 (edited) 23 minutes ago, themonsstar said: Not sure which Irish Regiment or it's pre or post war but it could be the Provost's staff of a Bn. Judging by the short scroll and dark chevrons I would say it is Royal Irish/Ulster Rifles (it does scream 1920s to me) and not 8th Hussars. I noticed that one chap still has a Queen Victoria crown on the badge. I love the pick axe handle! Great shot. Edited 11 December , 2019 by Toby Brayley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themonsstar Posted 11 December , 2019 Share Posted 11 December , 2019 FM. Garlick HQ School 1921. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themonsstar Posted 11 December , 2019 Share Posted 11 December , 2019 The Pick Axe handle was the weapon of choice for the War Office / MOD for years, it outlasted all of the weapons systems in the 20th century.Many Sailors, Soldiers and Airmen and Women would testify to having and holding this trusty weapon system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 11 December , 2019 Share Posted 11 December , 2019 (edited) That’s very true and I recall being armed with one when on battalion quarter guard in the 1970s. It was never called a ‘handle’ though, but Helve, Pick, GS. Or pick helve for short! In the 1980s we mounted guard with rifles and a 10-round magazine. Edited 11 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 11 December , 2019 Share Posted 11 December , 2019 (edited) 21 hours ago, Toby Brayley said: Judging by the short scroll and dark chevrons I would say it is Royal Irish/Ulster Rifles (it does scream 1920s to me) and not 8th Hussars. I noticed that one chap still has a Queen Victoria crown on the badge. I love the pick axe handle! Great shot. Examining the photo closely it’s not a pick helve, which had a steel sheath/ferrule at the top and was generally made with thicker wood at the upper quarter of its length. The photo shows the Provost Sergeant with a smooth type of Irish Shillelagh. A tradition of the RIR, and probably other Irish infantry too. The Provost Corporal has a silver mounted regimental cane. It was an invariable tradition in regular infantry regiments for the battalion’s provost sergeant to have a ‘special’ stick that was, in part, a badge of his office. As always with the regimental system there were variations to that theme. Other types of shillelagh included a stout Blackthorn, often with nodules, but sometimes without. The regimental arm bands/brassards are very typical too, and again for regular battalions, invariably seen with either, cap or collar badges and often in regimental colours, that in this case matched the chevrons and hose tops. NB. There is a thread on Regimental Police (RP) and it would be good to post the same photo there too. It’s a super photo, thank you for posting it. Edited 12 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 11 December , 2019 Share Posted 11 December , 2019 enhances fairly well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 11 December , 2019 Share Posted 11 December , 2019 6 hours ago, Toby Brayley said: Scouts of 28th (Artist Rifles) Battalion, London Regiment. Lots to see here including Lee Metford Mk1*s, map and compass cases. Incredibly I have been able to identify to individual seated front right is L/Cpl Scantlebury, he appears solo on page 78 of Stephen Chambers book, "Uniforms and Equipment of the British Army in World War 1". Super photos, I wonder what happened to Scantlebury? A great many Artists Rifles were commissioned as temporary officers during the war and with his relatively unusual name it might be possible to trace his fate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 12 December , 2019 Share Posted 12 December , 2019 21 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: Super photos, I wonder what happened to Scantlebury? A great many Artists Rifles were commissioned as temporary officers during the war and with his relatively unusual name it might be possible to trace his fate. He had a namesake in the 21st Battalion London Regiment (First Surrey Rifles) https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/96918/scantlebury,-/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 12 December , 2019 Share Posted 12 December , 2019 (edited) 18 minutes ago, seaJane said: He had a namesake in the 21st Battalion London Regiment (First Surrey Rifles) https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/96918/scantlebury,-/ That’s interesting seaJane, unfortunately we don’t have the initials of the chap in the photograph. Perhaps he’s a brother, or maybe he’s the same man and transferred over after the Artists became an OCB, if he wasn’t suitable for commissioning. Edited 12 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 12 December , 2019 Share Posted 12 December , 2019 56 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: That’s interesting seaJane, unfortunately we don’t have the initials of the chap in the photograph. Perhaps he’s a brother, or maybe he’s the same man and transferred over after the Artists became an OCB, if he wasn’t suitable for commissioning. There are three Scantleburys (Scantleburies?) in the London regiments: 1 & 2 are privates, Edwin H (the CWGC man) and George W. 3 appears to be the only Lance Corporal Scantlebury recorded in TNA, Charles Warren Oliver: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D5044951. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 12 December , 2019 Share Posted 12 December , 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, seaJane said: There are three Scantleburys (Scantleburies?) in the London regiments: 1 & 2 are privates, Edwin H (the CWGC man) and George W. 3 appears to be the only Lance Corporal Scantlebury recorded in TNA, Charles Warren Oliver: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D5044951. Brilliant work, it looks like Charles Warren Oliver Scantlebury is probably our man. The question is did he survive? I’m assuming so, if he’s not on the CWGC site. Edited 12 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 12 December , 2019 Share Posted 12 December , 2019 7 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: did he survive Yes - Death of Charles Warren O Scantlebury recorded in Croydon, December quarter of 1969. Born December quarter 1884, Woolwich. (FreeBMD). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 12 December , 2019 Share Posted 12 December , 2019 (edited) 53 minutes ago, seaJane said: Yes - Death of Charles Warren O Scantlebury recorded in Croydon, December quarter of 1969. Born December quarter 1884, Woolwich. (FreeBMD). That’s a great result, seaJane, thank you. One of the survivors then. He did not get beyond Lieutenant, which makes me wonder if he served only at 3rd line, or was perhaps evacuated as sick, or wounded before the Armistice. Edited 12 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themonsstar Posted 12 December , 2019 Share Posted 12 December , 2019 South Wales Borderers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorporalPunishment Posted 12 December , 2019 Share Posted 12 December , 2019 On 11/12/2019 at 09:33, Toby Brayley said: Scouts of 28th (Artist Rifles) Battalion, London Regiment. Lots to see here including Lee Metford Mk1*s, map and compass cases. Incredibly I have been able to identify to individual seated front right is L/Cpl Scantlebury, he appears solo on page 78 of Stephen Chambers book, "Uniforms and Equipment of the British Army in World War 1". I notice that the group photo is another one showing both patterns of the Artists Rifles cap badge being worn. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorporalPunishment Posted 12 December , 2019 Share Posted 12 December , 2019 On 11/12/2019 at 12:38, Toby Brayley said: Judging by the short scroll and dark chevrons I would say it is Royal Irish/Ulster Rifles (it does scream 1920s to me) and not 8th Hussars. I noticed that one chap still has a Queen Victoria crown on the badge. I love the pick axe handle! Great shot. The QVC badges of the Royal Irish Rifles were blackened. White metal badges were introduced in 1913. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoon Posted 12 December , 2019 Share Posted 12 December , 2019 19 minutes ago, themonsstar said: South Wales Borderers Great photo! I did not know they wore the sphinx above their shoulder title. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 12 December , 2019 Share Posted 12 December , 2019 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Dragoon said: Great photo! I did not know they wore the sphinx above their shoulder title. Chris I agree, it’s a great image and I’ve never seen SWB collar badges being worn in that way alongside a shoulder title. It’s reminiscent of the shoulder title ‘style’ of fusilier and light infantry regiments. Very interesting. It’s certainly not common and probably an idiosyncrasy of either the individual, or his battalion. Edited 12 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toby Brayley Posted 13 December , 2019 Share Posted 13 December , 2019 (edited) 21 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said: The QVC badges of the Royal Irish Rifles were blackened. White metal badges were introduced in 1913. Pete. It baffled me, however I am utterly convinced this is a QVC, especially when compared to the others! What do you reckon? 23 hours ago, seaJane said: Yes - Death of Charles Warren O Scantlebury recorded in Croydon, December quarter of 1969. Born December quarter 1884, Woolwich. (FreeBMD). Thank you! I will pencil that information on the reverse, for future collectors! Regards Toby Edited 13 December , 2019 by Toby Brayley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 13 December , 2019 Share Posted 13 December , 2019 I too think that it shows a white metal badge with Queen Victoria Crown. The outline is unmistakable. One possibility, especially for arm badges, is that it’s a sand cast badge made from silver or polished nickel, but with the cast having been formed from one of the old pattern, blackened brass badges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themonsstar Posted 13 December , 2019 Share Posted 13 December , 2019 General Service Corps Officer No2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themonsstar Posted 13 December , 2019 Share Posted 13 December , 2019 Royal Navy HMS Southampton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themonsstar Posted 13 December , 2019 Share Posted 13 December , 2019 Not to sure on are Scottish Regiments or the date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorporalPunishment Posted 13 December , 2019 Share Posted 13 December , 2019 1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said: I too think that it shows a white metal badge with Queen Victoria Crown. The outline is unmistakable. One possibility, especially for arm badges, is that it’s a sand cast badge made from silver or polished nickel, but with the cast having been formed from one of the old pattern, blackened brass badges. It is also possible that they were cap badges with the black coating removed and the bare metal then highly polished. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 13 December , 2019 Share Posted 13 December , 2019 (edited) 54 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said: It is also possible that they were cap badges with the black coating removed and the bare metal then highly polished. Pete. Possible if very highly polished, Pete, I agree, but when compared with the appearance of the other arm badges, and bearing in mind the strong, RIR regimental tradition of either, blackened, or white metal badges, I think it less likely. NB. Any Victorian crowned, pure brass badge that I have seen appears to have been stripped of its black finish. Edited 13 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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