Postcards

[GWF1967]

1 hour ago, GreyC said:

Hello gentlemen,

can anybody identify the place this sign was situated?

Thank you!

GreyC

I can't help with a location, but it's a great photograph.

[GreyC]

Thank you!

GreyC

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

 

I am far from confused. There is indeed room for doubt.

Let me try again.

 

The OP of the topic wrote "Bandsman John Clarke. 1144 Irish Guards" It seems reasonable to wonder how he was actually carried on the books, particularly as the OP has apparently looked at the records, not only the photograph.

 

The poster is not given lightly to error.

I did not mean in anyway to suggest that you were confused, but merely that what I had written about his uniform was (seemed to me) confusing, but I do not think that his uniform, in the exacting culture of the Foot Guards, leaves any room for doubt.

Edited 17 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

Thanks for the vote of confidence. 

intriguing!  Might it be then that the Foot Guards had their own drummers within the band, who were not part of the Corps of drums, but who had the chevroned arms that marked out drummers of the Guards Brigade?  

[Muerrisch]

Clarke's record [courtesy of member GWF1967] includes:

 

8/11/01. Transferred Irish Guards.  Posted. Musician. 9/11/01.

5/11/07. Permitted to continue beyond 21yrs.  Rank. Musician.

1916. Form. B.103. Rank. Bandsman.  Qualification. Bandsman

 

We can be reasonably sure that he was a "musician"** in 1905, the date of the photograph..Thus we have a member of the band, not an appointed drummer of the Drums, dressed as a pseudo drummer but with gold lace instead of Guards pattern lace. He is not alone, the band side drum player is attired similarly. Both appear to be clothed in the style of the sergeant drummer.

Whether this was unique to Irish Guards is a question to answer [the Grenadiers had a "time beater" with dress distinctions, but he was a drummer]. The other question is for how long this clothing persisted: the two musicians in question had the most expensive clothing in the band].

 

** Members of Guards' bands were styled musicians in the Edwardian era, changed to "bandsman" [always thus in Establishments] and, I believe, back to musician.

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Clarke's record [courtesy of member GWF1967] includes:

 

8/11/01. Transferred Irish Guards.  Posted. Musician. 9/11/01.

5/11/07. Permitted to continue beyond 21yrs.  Rank. Musician.

1916. Form. B.103. Rank. Bandsman.  Qualification. Bandsman

 

We can be reasonably sure that he was a "musician"** in 1905, the date of the photograph..Thus we have a member of the band, not an appointed drummer of the Drums, dressed as a pseudo drummer but with gold lace instead of Guards pattern lace. He is not alone, the band side drum player is attired similarly. Both appear to be clothed in the style of the sergeant drummer.

Whether this was unique to Irish Guards is a question to answer [the Grenadiers had a "time beater" with dress distinctions, but he was a drummer]. The other question is for how long this clothing persisted: the two musicians in question had the most expensive clothing in the band].

 

** Members of Guards' bands were styled musicians in the Edwardian era, changed to "bandsman" [always thus in Establishments] and, I believe, back to musician.

It’s very interesting and there’s more to understand about dress I think.  My perception is that what you’ve outlined applied to all the Foot Guards bands, with the Grenadiers having Swedish cuffs, as mentioned above.  The picture of a Grenadier I posted above seems also to be a bass drummer of the band, but with an unusual decoration at the bend of the elbow. 
You are correct that staff bands returned to the title of ‘Musician’.

Edited 17 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[PHalsall]

On 16/12/2019 at 21:24, Toby Brayley said:

 

Wonderful picture, thank you. He is certainly a Territorial Force Battalion of the Cheshire Regiment. He is not Yeomanry but TF hence components of the 1903 Bandolier Equipment (5 pocket bandolier and X2 15 round MkII cartridge Pockets), he is armed with a Charger Loading Lee Enfield (conversions of the earlier "Long Lees") and P1888 Bayonet all further evidence of the TF. 

Thanks Toby. That's the great value of this site, people with the depth of understanding of these details lost on the likes of myself! Much appreciated.

[PHalsall]

Thank you very much for sharing that brilliant photo. I can see where you are coming from as there is a striking resemblance. However, the photo being taken in 1912 rules out my grandad who would have been 12 years old at the time. Nevertheless, it begs the question of whether he had an older relative, an uncle perhaps (not a brother, he was the eldest sibling), serving in the battalion. I must look into that. The photo is also brilliant in conveying the atmosphere at the time. I do like these more natural studies of the soldiers, it evokes the mood of the time so well. Reminds of the Peter Jackson film 'They shall not grow old' in that respect.

 

Much appreciated,

Pete

[PHalsall]

Me again. The next photo shows Jim Irwin, standing, and a second man seated. I think they are in another back garden in the same road, judging by the path and building behind them. My guess is that they are on leave in 1915 before the Cheshires were despatched to Suvla Bay. The outfits may provide a clue as they both seem to be similarly dressed. Is that some sort of summer casual clothing for a soldier? The photo has been discussed on a separate thread - see below - and although the ID badge was noted there the discussion was centered on the building and context in order to determine what is shown in the image. I have displayed the photo here as well as there may be someone who can interpret the outfits they are wearing, I hope that is acceptable.

 

Pete

 on leave??

 

Edited 19 December , 2019 by PHalsall

[GWF1967]

On 17/12/2019 at 21:42, PHalsall said:

Thank you very much for sharing that brilliant photo. I can see where you are coming from as there is a striking resemblance. However, the photo being taken in 1912 rules out my grandad who would have been 12 years old at the time.

 

Much appreciated,

Pete

Hi Pete,

 If your Grandad was born in 1895, and was 15 (Soon to be 16) at the time of the C.1911, then he'd surely been 17 in 1912!

Edited 19 December , 2019 by GWF1967

[IPT]

6 minutes ago, GWF1967 said:

If your Grandad was born in 1995, and was 15 (Soon to be 16) at the time of the C.1911, then he'd surely been 17 in 1912!

 

He'd have been minus 83.

[GWF1967]

2 minutes ago, IPT said:

 

He'd have been minus 83.

Quite;     .now corrected! Thanks.

 

[PHalsall]

I bet he would have preferred to have been born in 1995 and had an easier life!

 

But yes of course you are right, he would have been 17. Interesting. I'll mail your excellent photo to his son in Canada, he might be the best judge. Its a tricky one isn't it. There are two photos of him in 1914 - 1915 and he looks quite different in each of them. Lets see what his son thinks.

 

Thanks again,

 

Pete

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, PHalsall said:

Me again. The next photo shows Jim Irwin, standing, and a second man seated. I think they are in another back garden in the same road, judging by the path and building behind them. My guess is that they are on leave in 1915 before the Cheshires were despatched to Suvla Bay. The outfits may provide a clue as they both seem to be similarly dressed. Is that some sort of summer casual clothing for a soldier? The photo has been discussed on a separate thread - see below - and although the ID badge was noted there the discussion was centered on the building and context in order to determine what is shown in the image. I have displayed the photo here as well as there may be someone who can interpret the outfits they are wearing, I hope that is acceptable.

 

Pete

 on leave??

 

They appear to be in billets off duty rather than on leave.  When stood down from duty in between parades men could relax in their billets, which were often temporary lodgings with a local family, as formally arranged by the billeting officer.  This was common between 1914-16, as there was a shortage of camp, or barracks accommodation for the expanding army and so resort was made to traditional billeting with village and town families, for which an agreed government rate was paid in cash.

Both men are wearing typical dress when relaxed and stood down, with service dress trousers held up by non-elasticated suspenders/braces (note one man had affixed an ID tag), together with ‘shoes canvas’, part of each man’s issued clothing.  In addition both men are wearing issued shirts of a striped pattern issued as a stopgap measure because of a shortage of the more usual ‘grey back’ shirt long used by the regular army.  Their jackets, caps, boots and puttees would be with their other kit in the billets to which they’d been allocated.

Edited 20 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[PHalsall]

That's hugely convincing, just what I was hoping for. I thought there must be some story behind the similarity in shirts and shoes in particular. It has also been nagging at me that the image is quite rustic despite the house having some similarity with those in Birkenhead. His battalion spent most of 1914-15 in England. Places including Church Stretton, Suffolk, Northampton, Stowmarket, Cambridge, Royston & Baldock, Bedford. They were at Royston from April 26th to early July. That might be a reasonable 'fit' as the image looks like summer or late spring, the light clothing and foliage on the plants. From July onwards they were out of the country.

 

Tremendously helpful, thank you very much.

 

Pete

 

 

[Gardenerbill]

On 16/12/2019 at 20:31, GreyC said:

Hello gentlemen,

can anybody identify the place this sign was situated?

Thank you!

GreyC

 

I can't supply a location, but if you have the inclination the place names might appear on the trench maps which are available on the National Library of Scotland website.

[GreyC]

Thank you Mark!

GreyC

[Muerrisch]

Impossible to do a fix because all locations are in one direction.

[Hywyn]

On 17/12/2019 at 21:42, PHalsall said:

Thank you very much for sharing that brilliant photo. I can see where you are coming from as there is a striking resemblance. However, the photo being taken in 1912 rules out my grandad who would have been 12 years old at the time. Nevertheless, it begs the question of whether he had an older relative, an uncle perhaps (not a brother, he was the eldest sibling), serving in the battalion. I must look into that. The photo is also brilliant in conveying the atmosphere at the time. I do like these more natural studies of the soldiers, it evokes the mood of the time so well. Reminds of the Peter Jackson film 'They shall not grow old' in that respect.

 

Much appreciated,

Pete

(Cleared up elsewhere that he'd be 17 in 1912)

 

His number (James Irwin 1348/200141) is a low one which suggests a pre war enlistment.

 

A quick look at others in Cheshire 4th Bn in Silver War Badge lists & suviving records gives

 

1290/200119 Arthur Finney  enlisted 19 4 1912

1341/nil  Hebert Pugh  16 5 1912

1344/nil Roddan  13 9 1912

1348/200141 James Irwin 

1367/200151 Thomas  11 11 1912

1404/200158 Hackman 17 1 1913

 

What might rule him out from being in that photo at Caernarfon in 1912 might therefore be that he didn't enlist until after the camp had been that year. I haven't any info as to the actual date of the camp but was under the impression they were earlier than September/October

[PHalsall]

Thanks Hywyn, very good of you to pursue this further. He definitely enlisted before the war, he was keen to do his bit. There is a very strong family memory of him being in the Argyle Theatre in Birkenhead the night war was declared when an official came on stage to announce the declaration, and to instruct all men in the territorials to present themselves at the drill hall for immediate mobilisation. He was certainly enlisted.

 

I do not know the age at which a young man could join the territorials but if it was 17 and his birthday being 23rd October he might well have missed this camp. If it was 16 then I expect he could have been there.

 

I do a lot of hill walking in North Wales and I would be very surprised if the grass was dry enough for all those men to sit down if the camp was late in the year!

 

Cheers

 

Pete 

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Grey,

I have a Trench Spike (with the ring forms) which looks just like that, in my Hemmingen cellar.

A now deceased collector in the Peronne area (Jean) gave it to son Philip and I, when we visited the hill where my Grandfather won his MC (wounded), as Coy Cdr 53rd Bn AIF.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[GreyC]

Thanks for sharing this with us.

GreyC

[GWF1967]

On 12/11/2019 at 21:34, GWF1967 said:

Alfred John Parkin. B. 1897. Manchester. 

Enlisted. Pte. 31052. 26th (Reserve) Batt. Manchester Regt. 

 Transferred. Pte/ / Drummer. 332751.  1/9th King's Liverpool Regt. -  Later 4th Batt.

 

Here's another card showing Alfred John Parkin as Drummer. 31052. 26th Reserve Battalion. Manchester Regiment.

He is standing right hand side of the picture, with jacket and cap on backwards.

 

[GWF1967]

On 20/12/2019 at 16:55, Hywyn said:

(Cleared up elsewhere that he'd be 17 in 1912)

 

His number (James Irwin 1348/200141) is a low one which suggests a pre war enlistment.

 

A quick look at others in Cheshire 4th Bn in Silver War Badge lists & suviving records gives

 

1290/200119 Arthur Finney  enlisted 19 4 1912

1341/nil  Hebert Pugh  16 5 1912

1344/nil Roddan  13 9 1912

1348/200141 James Irwin 

1367/200151 Thomas  11 11 1912

1404/200158 Hackman 17 1 1913

 

What might rule him out from being in that photo at Caernarfon in 1912 might therefore be that he didn't enlist until after the camp had been that year. I haven't any info as to the actual date of the camp but was under the impression they were earlier than September/October

The camp was 26th May - 9th June 1912, so would rule him out by your enlistment dates above.

[PHalsall]

Thanks GWF1967, as suspected, its not him. A very interesting photo nevertheless and many of those men are destined to become his companions over the next year or so including in action at Suvla Bay.

 

Much appreciated.