Postcards

[themonsstar]

53rd Machine Gun Battalion

London TF RAMC

[FROGSMILE]

The gunner wears a dismounted pattern greatcoat, which suggests RGA in theory, although that did not always follow depending upon the availability of stocks of mounted pattern for those arms and services entitled to it.

Edited 7 August , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[GWF1967]

3 hours ago, themonsstar said:

 

Great postcard. 

[GWF1967]

T- Cambridge Shoulder Title, two wound stripes and pay-book in pocket.

  Could anyone id the division  patch please.

[jay dubaya]

I believe the 1/1st Bn Cambridge Rgt wore a 2.5 inch light blue square with a black vertical stripe

[GWF1967]

10 minutes ago, jay dubaya said:

I believe the 1/1st Bn Cambridge Rgt wore a 2.5 inch light blue square with a black vertical stripe

Many thanks.

[gordon92]

On 8/7/2017 at 09:28, FROGSMILE said:

 

You make good points.  I seem to recall that an order was issued that only badges of rank and appointment were to be worn on white shell jackets, although other badges had been worn earlier.  I imagine that a band badge was not thought necessary as the red faced jacket was sufficiently distinctive.

Afterthought:  Drummers in the Seaforth Highlanders also wore red facings on the white drill-jacket.  In this case, there is little doubt that the subject is a bandsman as denoted by the wearing of the full scarf plaid which is flourished over his left arm for photographic effect.  Drummers would have worn no plaid in white drill and a fly plaid in full dress.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, gordon92 said:

Afterthought:  Drummers in the Seaforth Highlanders also wore red facings on the white drill-jacket.  In this case, there is little doubt that the subject is a bandsman as denoted by the wearing of the full scarf plaid which is flourished over his left arm for photographic effect.  Drummers would have worn no plaid in white drill and a fly plaid in full dress.

 

Yes, good points and I suspect that (after the rank only order), drummers badges would also not have been thought necessary, as they would have been considered part of the regiments 'musick' and identifiable as a whole when on parade with band and pipes.  I don't think that wings were worn in the white drill order of dress.

Edited 8 August , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

27 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I don't think that wings were worn in the white drill order of dress.

That is correct.

[Muerrisch]

On 8/6/2017 at 22:21, gordon92 said:

 

 

Further, he is dressed as a Bandsman with red facings on his white drill-jacket.

 

I have been doing some digging on the subject of the whute [drill] jacket issued to colour sergeants and junior of the Foot Guards and Highland regiments.

Frustratingly I find no central Order regarding what badges were to be issued with the jacket.

 

However, a slow trawl of Clothing Regs 1914 enables me to be sure that the following applied to the white jacket:

 

Chevrons and rank badges*: Guards - worsted lace and embroidery all ranks except SG sergeant- and corporal- piper. 

Highland - as Guards except for colour sergeants' gold lace etc.

 

Scout badges: Guards - no mention

Highland - "brass" [sic] fleur-de-lys

 

Bandsman badges: Guards - no mention

Highland - ordered to be not worn

 

Drum badge: Guards and Highland - not provided.

 

Skill-at-arms etc: not provided **

 

Good conduct: no mention.

 

Notes

* believed to be scarlet

** this leaves some appointment badges such as pioneer unaccounted for.

 

I get the impression that these minor rules were made ad hoc as the badges themselves were instituted, and that there was no central plan for the white jacket. The overriding principle appears to be economy and "need to know", the exception being the scout badge. Who needed to identify a scout during a drill parade?

 

I would, as ever, be most grateful for corrections and/ or additional information.

 

Edited 8 August , 2017 by Muerrisch

[FROGSMILE]

I have seen earlier (1890s) pictures of Foot Guards with skill-at-arms badges, but later pictures (just before WW1), where nought but rank and good conduct is worn, so it does seem to have changed.

[gordon92]

21 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

 

I have been doing some digging on the subject of the whute [drill] jacket issued to colour sergeants and junior of the Foot Guards and Highland regiments.

Frustratingly I find no central Order regarding what badges were to be issued with the jacket.

 

However, a slow trawl of Clothing Regs 1914 enables me to be sure that the following applied to the white jacket:

 

Chevrons and rank badges*: Guards - worsted lace and embroidery all ranks except SG sergeant- and corporal- piper. 

Highland - as Guards except for colour sergeants' gold lace etc.

 

Scout badges: Guards - no mention

Highland - "brass" [sic] fleur-de-lys

 

Bandsman badges: Guards - no mention

Highland - ordered to be not worn

 

Drum badge: Guards and Highland - not provided.

 

Skill-at-arms etc: not provided **

 

Good conduct: no mention.

 

Notes

* believed to be scarlet

** this leaves some appointment badges such as pioneer unaccounted for.

 

I get the impression that these minor rules were made ad hoc as the badges themselves were instituted, and that there was no central plan for the white jacket. The overriding principle appears to be economy and "need to know", the exception being the scout badge. Who needed to identify a scout during a drill parade?

 

I would, as ever, be most grateful for corrections and/ or additional information.

 

Thank you for doing this.  Digging this information out of those tables in the Clothing Regs clearly required considerable diligence and patience.  The Clothing Regs refer to the garment in question as the "white jacket" while the Dress Regs for officers call it "Drill Jacket, white."  I have picked up the term white drill-jacket introduced by Douglas Anderson in his book The Highland Light Infantry - The Uniforms of the Regiment.  This term, in my opinion, is useful in distinguishing the short waist length jacket from the white drill frock (drill in this case referring to the material) that was worn pre-1914 in hot weather review order at overseas stations.  As far as I can tell, the white drill frock is not even mentioned in the 1914 Clothing Regulations.

Edited 9 August , 2017 by gordon92

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

Thank you for doing this.  Digging this information out of those tables in the Clothing Regs clearly required considerable diligence and patience.  The Clothing Regs refer to the garment in question as the "white jacket" while the Dress Regs for officers call it "Drill Jacket, white."  I have picked up the term white drill-jacket introduced by Douglas Anderson in his book The Highland Light Infantry - The Uniforms of the Regiment.  This term, in my opinion, is useful in distinguishing the short waist length jacket from the white drill frock (drill in this case referring to the material) that was worn pre-1914 in hot weather review order at overseas stations.  As far as I can tell, the white drill frock is not even mentioned in the 1914 Clothing Regulations.

 

It's not mentioned because it was not described in those terms for officers.  I know that you will be familiar with inconsistencies between succeeding iterations of dress regulations and the general British determination to describe many garments for officers in a different way to the equivalent garments for other ranks.

Edited 9 August , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

10 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

It's not mentioned because it was not described in those terms for officers.  I know that you will be familiar with inconsistencies between succeeding iterations of dress regulations and the general British determination to describe many garments for officers in a different way to the equivalent garments for other ranks.

Yes, in doing a quick check, para 1507 of the 1911 Dress Regulations under "Special Uniform for Service Abroad" describe a "White Frock."  So, I see your point there.  But is there an equivalent garment for ORs mentioned in the Clothing Regulations?  If so, I have never seen it.

[Muerrisch]

2 hours ago, gordon92 said:

Thank you for doing this.  Digging this information out of those tables in the Clothing Regs clearly required considerable diligence and patience.  The Clothing Regs refer to the garment in question as the "white jacket" while the Dress Regs for officers call it "Drill Jacket, white."  I have picked up the term white drill-jacket introduced by Douglas Anderson in his book The Highland Light Infantry - The Uniforms of the Regiment.  This term, in my opinion, is useful in distinguishing the short waist length jacket from the white drill frock (drill in this case referring to the material) that was worn pre-1914 in hot weather review order at overseas stations.  As far as I can tell, the white drill frock is not even mentioned in the 1914 Clothing Regulations.

 

I am not sure what the problem is, or even if there is a problem. 

CR 1914 [other ranks only] refer to a "jacket white" and a "white jacket" and do not mention a "frock white" or "white frock".

In context, since the  white jacket is for issue to Guards and Highland units only, it must be the short, fitted garment worn for drill.

There is no "frock white" because this garment was issued by the Indian Government, from Indian funds, as a hot-weather alternative to the scarlet India Pattern frock, and this frock appears in CR India in its various iterations.

[FROGSMILE]

14 hours ago, gordon92 said:

Yes, in doing a quick check, para 1507 of the 1911 Dress Regulations under "Special Uniform for Service Abroad" describe a "White Frock."  So, I see your point there.  But is there an equivalent garment for ORs mentioned in the Clothing Regulations?  If so, I have never seen it.

 

Yes, they are mentioned in CRs 1894 under: 'Details of Clothing' - 'Stations Abroad'.  Part II. - Sect. I.  The stations are then shown separately (less India).  

The short Scottish garments are described as 'Jackets White'.

 

Frocks are broken down into various types, included in which are 'white cotton'.  The word drill is not used circa 1894.  Both frocks and matching trousers in 'white cotton' have footnotes under:

a. 'provided locally, two years allowance may be drawn on first arrival at the station and none in the following year'.

3 suits for most stations e.g. Hong Kong, but 8 suits for Ceylon, presumably because of humidity.  

 

There are entirely separate CRs for India, where again 'white cotton' frocks and trousers are provided locally via the three government army clothing factories.

Edited 10 August , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

22 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

 

I am not sure what the problem is, or even if there is a problem. 

CR 1914 [other ranks only] refer to a "jacket white" and a "white jacket" and do not mention a "frock white" or "white frock".

In context, since the  white jacket is for issue to Guards and Highland units only, it must be the short, fitted garment worn for drill.

There is no "frock white" because this garment was issued by the Indian Government, from Indian funds, as a hot-weather alternative to the scarlet India Pattern frock, and this frock appears in CR India in its various iterations.

 

22 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Yes, they are mentioned in CRs 1894 under: 'Details of Clothing' - 'Stations Abroad'.  Part II. - Sect. I.  The stations are then shown separately (less India).  

The short Scottish garments are described as 'Jackets White'.

 

Frocks are broken down into various types, included in which are 'white cotton'.  The word drill is not used circa 1894.  Both frocks and matching trousers in 'white cotton' have footnotes under:

a. 'provided locally, two years allowance may be drawn on first arrival at the station and none in the following year'.

3 suits for most stations e.g. Hong Kong, but 8 suits for Ceylon, presumably because of humidity.  

 

There are entirely separate CRs for India, where again 'white cotton' frocks and trousers are provided locally via the three government army clothing factories.

Had not realized that the white frock was an Indian Government issue.  Thanks to you both for this clarification.

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, gordon92 said:

 

Had not realized that the white frock was an Indian Government issue.  Thanks to you both for this clarification.

 

To be accurate, not just India. I tried to make clear that it was issued 'locally' in all the tropical stations, both East and West of the Suez.  India and Burma were separate, with their own regulations, funded by the British-Indian government.

Edited 10 August , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

9 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

To be accurate, not just India. I tried to make clear that it was issued 'locally' in all the tropical stations, both East and West of the Suez.  India and Burma were separate, with their own regulations, funded by the British-Indian government.

 

Interestingly, whereas the 1894 regulations do indeed provide for the issue of white cotton frocks [and trousers] to other ranks in tropical stations, by the time we get to our period .CR 1914, there is no mention of such issues anywhere [Indian CR were issued separately, and continued with the whites]. Specific listing of foreign stations had more or less ceased by 1914, they become "Stations Abroad". 

 

Either at some time between 1894 and 1914 the decision was made to cease tropical issue of whites, or some devious Treasury way of making the "colonies" pay for and issue whites locally was invented, and the garments were dropped from CR 1914. I don't know the answer, and have not seen any reference to the matter that I can recall.

 

The clincher would be dateable photos of whites in wear in the non-India tropical stations in the Edwardian/Georgian period. I must say that I don't have any such photos to hand.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

 

Interestingly, whereas the 1894 regulations do indeed provide for the issue of white cotton frocks [and trousers] to other ranks in tropical stations, by the time we get to our period .CR 1914, there is no mention of such issues anywhere [Indian CR were issued separately, and continued with the whites]. Specific listing of foreign stations had more or less ceased by 1914, they become "Stations Abroad". 

 

Either at some time between 1894 and 1914 the decision was made to cease tropical issue of whites, or some devious Treasury way of making the "colonies" pay for and issue whites locally was invented, and the garments were dropped from CR 1914. I don't know the answer, and have not seen any reference to the matter that I can recall.

 

The clincher would be dateable photos of whites in wear in the non-India tropical stations in the Edwardian/Georgian period. I must say that I don't have any such photos to hand.

 

I will do some more research in slow time, but the use of the term "Stations Abroad" is also the exact term used in the 1894 CRs, as I mentioned above.  There then followed pages and tables of issue for the stations concerned.  Perhaps many of the stations replaced whites with khaki drill by 1914, but we certainly know that some, especially those displaying more pomp such as Gibraltar, retained whites.  How the scale of issue was regulated remains to be clarified.

My main intent here was to clarify for Gordon92 that in CRs, "White Jacket" = Scottish/Guards shell and "White Frock" = tropical garment.

Edited 11 August , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

If Gordon92 is interested it might be worth while pursuing the white frock saga because its history seems to open a can of worms.

Tthe three Mediterranean garrisons, Cyprus, Gibraltar, and Malta were not scaled for KD suits let alone whites ......... the only top garments for issue were scarlet serge frocks and scarlet lined tunics.  It may be that there is an accidental omission, but "its not on scale so you can't have it" has echoed down the years I am sure.  Khakee Drill frocks are indeed scaled for Egypt, but not whites.

Certainly 2nd RWF during the brief occupation oc Crete c 1896 wore KD, and so did all the British in Cyprus 1961-64 [except the RN]. Civilians with Dormant Commissions such as I were "advised" to get ourselves similarly kitted by patronising the many local tailors.

 

None of which is to say that some soldiers in some scenarios did not wear whites in the Mediterranean, it is just that CR 1894 or 1914 have no provision.

 

I shall now start to look for Med. garrison photos showing whites or KD in the relevant period.

 

I have started a trawl at

 

Edited 11 August , 2017 by Muerrisch

[gordon92]

5 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

If Gordon92 is interested it might be worth while pursuing the white frock saga because its history seems to open a can of worms.

Tthe three Mediterranean garrisons, Cyprus, Gibraltar, and Malta were not scaled for KD suits let alone whites ......... the only top garments for issue were scarlet serge frocks and scarlet lined tunics.  It may be that there is an accidental omission, but "its not on scale so you can't have it" has echoed down the years I am sure.  Khakee Drill frocks are indeed scaled for Egypt, but not whites.

Certainly 2nd RWF during the brief occupation oc Crete c 1896 wore KD, and so did all the British in Cyprus 1961-64 [except the RN]. Civilians with Dormant Commissions such as I were "advised" to get ourselves similarly kitted by patronising the many local tailors.

 

None of which is to say that some soldiers in some scenarios did not wear whites in the Mediterranean, it is just that CR 1894 or 1914 have no provision.

 

I shall now start to look for Med. garrison photos showing whites or KD in the relevant period.

 

I have started a trawl at

 

Indeed I would be interested. 

 

Related to this discussion I display below relevant text from Douglas Anderson's book The Highland Light Infantry - Uniforms of the Regiment.  The text is addressing the Regiment's Orders of Dress for 1905 and notes in that year the "white linen jacket" was adopted for use in hot weather review order by the 1st Battalion already in India.  This "white linen jacket" mentioned by Douglas is clearly the white frock, and his related drawing enclosed below indicates this.  The 1st HLI was in Egypt 1903 moving to India 1904, and only in 1905 began wearing the white frock.  This is suggestive that there may have been some regimental discretion involved in the use of this garment.  The 2nd Battalion was in India prior to the Boer War, and Anderson makes no mention of the "white linen jacket"/white frock in use by this HLI battalion during the 1890s.  I would regard Douglas Anderson's knowledge of HLI uniforms as beyond reproach.

Edited 11 August , 2017 by gordon92

[themonsstar]

I have copies of the following Dress Regulations for the Army if this helps anyone's research

 

1857

1874

1883 VII

1894

1900

1904

1911

1934 

and some  after WW2.

[themonsstar]

Trinidad Boys

28th Bn (Artist Rifles ) London Regt .

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

The badge looks like Artists Rifles?