Home for battered memorial sought

[ralphjd]

William Arthur Deakin has a few papers on Ancestry but lists only his occupation as a clerk doesnt state where though. Ralph.

[ianw]

I wish I wasn't away on business at the moment but I am sure the Forum will crack this - I am sure someone is waiting to pull a big rabbit out of the hat with a definitive answer. This could be JH.

A few more occupations of the men concerned would be very useful, I am sure.

[Myrtle]

Just thinking of pursuits that would have brought a variety of men together! How about a sports/athletics club?

Myrtle

[jon_armstrong]

How about a sports/athletics club?

The geographical locations seem too spread out for that though... It's hard to imagine men from Stockport or Harpurhey or Altrincham being in the same sports club as people from Clitheroe. Unless it was everyone in a regional league or something.

[ralphjd]

Five papers for Mark Maley occupation builders labourer from 13 Sutton Street Ancoats, Butler Street is also Ancoats. Ralph.

[June Underwood]

On the UKNIWM website there is the description of a War Memorial at CWS, Lower Broughton, Greater Manchester. It is no 45361 and is described as "CWS Buildings and Shopfittings Dept (lost)" - "bronze plaque [no size given] - borders decorated with swags and laurels at top and sides." Also mentioned "... names also list on main CWS memorial in Manchester" 49 died.

This description sounds quite similar to the newspaper photo.

June

[centurion]

I would tend to agree with Ian now, discounting the church memorial. There aren't that many names on it for a regional memorial for a labour intensive industry but the CWS farming operation was only started in 1896. Dairy farming possibly isn't as labour intensive as arable farming and as the places of enlistment are quite widely spread perhaps it is CWS dairy farms in "Lancashire" or similar. There are archives for CWS, minute books etc, but I don't think they're available online.

Dairy farms before the introduction of milking machines, parlours etc used to be just as labour intensive. Indeed whereas arable used to (and to some extent still does) have peaks when labour is often brought in and troughs when one effectively watches the crops grow (or waits for spring) dairy work is constant - the cows need milking every day, the milk needs collecting and putting out for collection, the shippan (cowshed) needs mucking out at least twice a day. If the bottling is done on farm (as my uncle used to do) there is even more work. Besides all this hay doesn't make itself and there is calving and rearing and much much more. On a big dairy farm quite a number would be employed. In addition the CWS operation would require people to drive the milk collecting vehicles (probably lorries by 1914), clerical staff to record everything, and possibly Ernies (the fastest milkmen in the North West).

I now work for part of the cooperative movement (albeit not mainstream co op - we train teachers!) - I'll ask around.

[IPT]

Not much, but just to confirm the Alstons are brothers;

Baptism: 6 Jun 1875 St Mary Magdalene, Clitheroe, Lancashire, England

Dixon Alston - Child of James Alston & Margaret

Born: 13 May 1875

Abode: Clitheroe

Occupation: Spinner

Baptised by: J H Anderton

Register: Baptims 1861 - 1881, Page 110, Entry 1124

[Myrtle]

On the UKNIWM website there is the description of a War Memorial at CWS, Lower Broughton, Greater Manchester. It is no 45361 and is described as "CWS Buildings and Shopfittings Dept (lost)" - "bronze plaque [no size given] - borders decorated with swags and laurels at top and sides." Also mentioned "... names also list on main CWS memorial in Manchester" 49 died.

This description sounds quite similar to the newspaper photo.

June

June

This sounds a possible. There are 49 names on the Memorial.

[SteveMarsdin]

Re June's post: "49 died" exactly matches the memorial. A lot could happen between 1911 and enlistment; many could have changed jobs but I think at least some of the 49 would have been working at the CWS Buildings and Shopfitting Dept in 1911 - if it was open then ? Laborious as it is we could do to try and list all occupations (ideally once we've established the Dept. was open in 1911).

Re Centurion's post, with "just" 49 dead it probably rules out a regional agricultural business - but June's find could be the answer.

[SteveMarsdin]

This link on the Salford City Council forum gives some background to the works:

http://services.salford.gov.uk/forum/forum...20&id=86512

[keithmroberts]

if anyone has the time to check the local newspaper its highly likely that some of those deaths were reported within a week or two of the fact, and to judge by the Yorkshire newspapers that I am currently ploughing through, many of the reports do mention the dead soldier's previous employment. That could be a clincher.

Keith

[centurion]

Re June's post: "49 died" exactly matches the memorial. A lot could happen between 1911 and enlistment; many could have changed jobs but I think at least some of the 49 would have been working at the CWS Buildings and Shopfitting Dept in 1911 - if it was open then ? Laborious as it is we could do to try and list all occupations (ideally once we've established the Dept. was open in 1911).

Re Centurion's post, with "just" 49 dead it probably rules out a regional agricultural business - but June's find could be the answer.

But we already know some of them were listed as agricultural labourers which would rule out shop fitting (49 could be good old fashioned coincience). If we take a one in ten approach to the served/killed ratio that gives about 500 served - you can run quite an effective agricultural business with that number especially since agriculture was to a certain extent protected so the numbers enlisted would perhaps be less than in other industries. . One possibility a CWS mail voice choir. The Lancaster CWS MVC had a roll of honour so there could have been one for the Clitheroe area and its hinterland. MVC would often admit members who didn't work for the parent organisation if they had a good voice (especially if they also had a relative who was a member). The CWS also had a tradition of brass bands.

[Myrtle]

But we already know some of them were listed as agricultural labourers which would rule out shop fitting

I have only seen mention of one possible agricultural labourer so far.

[ianw]

There are 900 names on the main CWS Manchester memorial (UKNIWM 13152) so it would seem possible that these are the 49 men of the CWS shopfittings dept that died in the Great War - but as has been said 49 names could be just a coincidence. It would appear that approx 250 men worked in the department so the loss rate would be quite chilling.

One sure way to confirm this is to check that the 49 names are indeed on the main CWS Manchester memorial. Anyone work close to the CWS main memorial Hanover Street Manchester? Of course, even if the names are there, they could be the names of 49 CWS dairy workers, 49 CWS undertakers or any other sub-set of the 900!

[mandy hall]

From the 1911 Census

William Ashton age 30

occupation - bricklayers labourer

industry or service worker connected with - co operative wholesale building society depart think last bit says depart

born Manchester Lancashire

living with wife Vesta Ashton and 4 children

address 2 Newton Buildings Ancoats Manchester

hopes this helps will have a look at some of the others

Mandy

[ianw]

I take your point on the laurels but I think the drapery could be said to be swags - not that soft furnishing is a particular interest of mine. Perhaps the UKNIWM description of the lost memorial was done from a dodgy photo?

The only way to confirm it or not is to look at the names on the main CWS memorial. The exact 49 name match is just so promising!

[kingo]

In the Manchester City Battalions book of honour I can find 35 of the 49 names listed under the Co-Operative Wholesale Society's Roll of honour.

[ianw]

Mandy/Kingo

That is pretty conclusive, I think. Good work from the GWF again.

We still need to get those names checked.

[mandy hall]

1911 census

Richard Aspin age 18

occupation apprentice to a joiner

industry or service with which worker is connected blank

born Blackburn Lancashire

living with parents William and Eleanor Aspin father's occupation cotton weaver

address 38 Grimshaw Park Blackburn

Mandy

[kingo]

This Man - Pte Michael McCormick, is listed in the book and his name is annotated "killed"

6063 Pte Michael McCormick, 1st Bn Lancashire Fusiliers. KIA 25/4/1915 aged 36. Commemorated on the Helles Memorial.

Husband of Mary Jane of Littleborough.

[shred]

T Dunn is either 21381 8th Battalion King's own (Royal Lancaster Regiment)

or

John Logan AKA T Dunn.

John Andrew Logan - Private - 9944 Kings Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment), "C" Coy, 2nd Battalion. Killed in Acton 08/05/1915 aged 28. Commemorated at Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial, Panel 12. (Served as DUNN), Son of the late Stephen and Jane Loghan.

John served under the name Thomas Dunn and CWGC entry for Dunn gives the following details:

Name: DUNN

Initials: T

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: ALIAS

Date of Death: 08/05/1915

Service No: 9944

Additional information: See "LOGHAN," the true family name.

The second man is on the Regent Square memorial and was recently brought to my attention by forum member Northern Soul.

Garry

[mandy hall]

1911 census

Ernest Leach age 22

occupation house carpenter and joiner

industry or service with which worker is connected building trade

born openshaw

living with wife Constance Stella

address 233 Ways Green Winsford Cheshire

Mandy

[ianw]

It is really sad to contemplate that all these craftsmen happily working in wood perished in the Great War never to return to their tools and benches at home.

[Salfordian]

Hmmm. Now with woodworkers and joiners combined with CWS and Dairy an association maybe the way forward. Could we go back to the Oddfellows connection or is that very unlikley.