Home for battered memorial sought

[Salfordian]

Killed by a year festering in Salonika. What a sad little story of a short life.

Have you noticed how many men from this memorial are "Missing" and have no known grave. Still trying to suss the Clitheroe connection.

[Pighills]

The Clitheroe connection may be nothing more than the men simply being born in Clitheroe and moving to Manchester for work - as my great granddad did along with all his children.

[ianw]

Yes, I suppose you might return back to your birthplace to enlist with your old mates.

[Northern Soul]

I have just spoken to the BBC and it would appear that we were pipped at the post by a local Manchester historian who of course used the same methodology/info as ourselves.

I should have thought that most "historians" with a bent towards WW1 will be familiar with this forum. Might they have got their ideas and leads from here..............?

[Northern Soul]

................The BBC has emailled back and I think there will be a big feature on the memorial tonight.......

Expect about two minutes or so of coverage just before the lovely Dianne Oxberry tells us it's going to be raining again tomorrow.

[ianw]

Might they have got their ideas and leads from here..............?

You never know. Treachery is everywhere!

That said, there were only so many ways of pursuing this. I hope that with us providing a nice picture, we may get a mention.

[jwp2007]

The Clitheroe connection may be nothing more than the men simply being born in Clitheroe and moving to Manchester for work - as my great granddad did along with all his children.

From what my grandad said the cws dairy and piggery at Chaigley nr. Clitheroe where he worked was quite a large concern with quite a few employees, just wondered if men from here may have applied for other jobs within the cws and have transfered, just a thought !, shopfitting may have been preferable to mucking out pigs !!!

John.

[ianw]

What isn't preferable to mucking out pigs!

[Myrtle]

What isn't preferable to mucking out pigs!

Mucking out elephants

[Mercian Volunteer]

One of the names on the memorial is George Albert Tatler . He was a railwayman and worked at the London and Northwestern Railway steam sheds. ( Source :- Crewe Roll of Honour ) Could it possibly be that the Memorial had some connection with Railways somehow. The quality of this memorial very much indicates that it must have come from a large organisation with money or facilities to do the work in house.

[ianw]

MV - I think we are all pretty convinced that this is CWS Shopfitters memorial. I can't surmise how a railwayman gets on the memorial - perhaps he worked for the shopfitters before joining the railway? He was 35 when he died so might have had 2 employers. My personal experience is that there was often a good deal of flexibility on memorials with a tendency to include rather than exclude. In the manner of "Have we got room for George Tatler's name . He was here for 10 years and only left in 1913".

I still do not know if the names on the memorial have been checked with the names on the main CWS memorial. Probably in hand. This certainly needs doing. Interesting to see if Mr Tatler is also on it.

Whilst I am sure that many memorials were made in-house, wouldn't they have included company initials or motifs if they had done this? To me this has the look of a bought in generic type of memorial plaque. No doubt quite expensive though.

[ppc1919]

MV,

The gentleman who wrote about the CWS at Vere Street on the Salford Forum, mentioned that the timber was delivered by rail directly to the site and also from the docks (which is less than 1 mile away).

It could have been possible that as a railwayman, George Tatler was well known to the Shopfitters at the CWS and they included him on the Memorial?

[daggers]

A fair account of the 'tracing' was on BBC's North West Tonight, with the good news that the CWS are to restore and reposition the plaque. There is another Co-op memorial at the HQ of the Co-op Bank, which has all the same names with many others from other departments and locations.

[michaelpcoyle]

Hi to all. It was me that sent the original email to NWT seeking help. I was asked by the War Memorials Trust to try and find out its origins after it had been reported to them by the scrapyard manager. The resulting firestorm of publicity and interest was absolutely amazing. My thanks to the GWF for its efforts in raising attention is gratefully given. Thank you to so many of you who contributed. Well done, I know where to come in future! Fantastic

[ianw]

Thank you to so many of you who contributed. Well done, I know where to come in future! Fantastic

Michael,

I am sure all the Pals here enjoyed the challenge and are delighted that the CWS is doing the right thing and welcoming home its lost memorial.

Glad to see you have joined the Forum and hope you will be a frequent visitor and challenge the forensic skills of the Pals again in the future.

Regards Ian

[ianw]

I have just watched the BBC NW piece. Interestingly, the local researcher only seemed to know they were CWS casualties and the CWS archivist had a picture of the memorial to tell her it was that of the shopfitters.

The shopfitting factory was pictured and seemed very large indeed.

Well done to the Pals for delivering the full information first time and good to get thanks above from the man that started the quest. I think the BBC man must have passed our details on to him. Also nice to see the relatives of the soldier. Was it just coincidence that we had the same man's photo?

[Roy Evans]

I believe that the local historian claiming the credit was named as John Marsden.

Roy

[mandy hall]

Glad the mystery has been solved and hope the memorial gets returned to a place where it will be on public display.

I have tried to watch bbc north west on the link but none of the computers in the house will play it

Mandy

[CGM]

The scrapyard manager deserves some credit too.

CGM

[Salfordian]

I have just watched the BBC NW piece. Interestingly, the local researcher only seemed to know they were CWS casualties and the CWS archivist had a picture of the memorial to tell her it was that of the shopfitters.

The shopfitting factory was pictured and seemed very large indeed.

Well done to the Pals for delivering the full information first time and good to get thanks above from the man that started the quest. I think the BBC man must have passed our details on to him. Also nice to see the relatives of the soldier. Was it just coincidence that we had the same man's photo?

I wrote to Stuart Flinders at Lunch. Stuart was the reporter and I told him about the picture and the link to the family website.

I think we proved over the last 24 hours how good this forum is and what we can do when we bounce ideas off each other. I am very proud to have been with you lot and help solve this puzzle !

I look forward to doing it all again soon now that Michael Coyle has found the GWF !!

The scrapyard manager deserves some credit too.

CGM

Too right and lets hope that this memorial piece was seen on TV or the web or in Newspapers by other scrap dealers and they do the same should they ever come across one.

[17107BM]

What a rollercoaster thread to follow. Really enjoyed reading this. Well done to all involved.

Regards BM.

[ralphjd]

The scrapyard manager deserves some credit too.

CGM

My exact comment to my neighbour this afternoon, in this "lets grab all we can, while we can age" very commendable. Ralph.

[Salfordian]

I believe that the local historian claiming the credit was named as John Marsden.

Roy

http://www.marsden-ons.co.uk/about-me.htm

I think this is the chap

[Roy Evans]

Yep, it certainly looks like him.

Roy

[shred]

Hi Pals,

I have received a response from Roy from the Salford Forum. He has given me permission to post his answer to whether he remembers seeing the memorial at the Vere St works.

GARRY, HI SINCERE THANKS FOR YOUR ENQUIRY. SORRY TO DELAY WITH ANY REPLY. AS I HAVE BEEN AWAY ALL WEEKEND.

I WAS SURPRISED TO SEE THE LINK, AS I WAS VIEWING IT, AND TAKING SOME COPIES, THE ITEM APPEARED ON THE T.V. ALONG SIDE ME. IT WAS FEATURED ON THE NEWS,SHOWING ITS APPARENT RESCUE IN THE SCRAP YARD., PRESUMABLY SOMEWHERE IN MANCHESTER.

YOUR ENQUIRY, THE LINK AND THE T.V. REPORT WAS AN EXTREME COINCIDENCE, I SAY THAT AS A PERSON WHO HAS ALWAYS FOLLOWED MILITARY INTERESTS,INCLUDING AT TIMES A STUDY OF CENOTAPHS AND MEMORIALS.

WAS IT YOU THAT SENT ME A SEPERATE EMAIL ENQUIRY ON THIS SUBJECT.

I THOUGHT INITIALLY THAT IT WAS A DAMM COINCIDENCE. I IMMEDIATELY THOUGHT NO, THEIR WAS NO MEMORIAL SCROLL AT VERE STREET,BUT THE MORE I THOUGHT ABOUT IT IT SEEMED TO RING A BELL.

I AM CERTAIN THAT THE SCROLL WAS NOT IN THE WORKSHOP BUILDINGS, BUT THE MORE I THOUGHT , I BELIEVE THAT I CAN POSSIBLY REMEMBER THE PLAQUE AFFIXED ON THE WALL IN THE MAIN OFFICE ENTRANCE, AT THE BOTTOM OF THE STAIRS.

THIS WAS THE MAIN ADMINISTRATIVE OFFICE BUILDING ON THE RIGHT OF THE MAIN GATE.THE OFFICE BLOCK WAS RELATIVELY NEW IN COMPARISON TO THE WORKSHOP BUILDINGS, AND HOUSED THE ARCHITECTS/DESIGN AND DRAWING OFFICE STAFF AND ADMINISTRATION.

I DO BELIEVE THAT IT WAS POSSIBLY IN THAT ORIGINAL LOCATION.YOU MUST APPRECIATE THAT THE MAIN OFFICE AREA WAS A HOLY SANCTUARY TO US PEASANTS IN THE WORKSHOP, SO IT WAS NOT AN AREA WE WERE PERMITTED TO FREQUENT. I DID HAVE TWO VERY GOOD COLLEAGUES WHO WORKED IN THE MAIN OFFICE, KEN PAISEY WHO WAS AN OLD SCHOOL BUDDY BOTH AT GODFREY ERMAN SCHOOL AT PEEL GREEN, AND LATER AT WORSLEY JUNIOR TECHNICAL COLLEGE,WE SHARED ALL OUR SCHOOL YEARS TOGETHER FROM 5 TO 15 YEARS OLD.

I LEFT WORSLEY AT THE AGE OF 15 AND WENT STRAIGHT INTO THE VERE STREET WORKSHOPS,WHILST KEN DID THE WISE THING AND STAYED ON A FURTHER YEAR TO TAKE HIS G.C.E. EXAMS,WHICH EARNED HIM A STATUS POSITION INTO THE OFFICE, DRAWING OFFICE.

I ALSO HAD A VERY GOOD FRIEND DIZZY BURTON FROM PRESTWICH, WHO WORKED IN THE PAY OFFICE. HE PLAYED THE TRUMPET IN A TRADITIONAL JAZZ BAND ,THE JAZZ ACES,AT THE THATCHED HOUSE OFF MARKET STREET,IN MANCHESTER.

BOTH WORKED IN THE OFFICE, AND I AM SURE WOULD BE ABLE TO CONFIRM IF MY ASSUMPTION IS CORRECT.

UNFORTUNATELY ,SADLY I HAVE LOST CONTACT WITH BOTH OLD FRIENDS, AND I DO NOT KNOW IF THEY HAVE SURVIVED THE PASSAGE OF TIME.

HAVE YOU KNOWLEDGE OF THE TEXT/DETAILS ON THE PLAQUE, AS I WAS NOT ABLE TO VIEW IT IN ANY DETAIL.

WHEN I ANSWERED THE INITIAL EMAIL, I SAID THAT PERHAPS THE PLAQUE FOR THE FIRST WORLD WAR ,MIGHT HAVE BEEN TO EARLY FOR THE C.W.S. SHOPFITTING,VERE STREET, AS LOOKING BACK, ONE GETS THE IMPRESSION THAT THE FACTORY MIGHT HAVE EXISTED IN AN EARLIER LIFE AS POSSIBLY A WAGGON FACTORY?

THE PLAQUE OBVIOUSLY SHOWS THE NAME RANK AND REGIMENTS OF THE DICEASED SOLDIERS. I OBSERVED ON THE PICTURE AS YOU WOULD EXPECT THE SOLDIERS ENLISTED AND SEVED IN A VARIETY OF REGIMENTS,INCLUDING THE MANCHESTER REGT.

IT WOULD BE A GOOD EXERCISE TO TRACE THE RESIDENTIAL ADDRESSES OF THE SOLDIERS WHO SADLY LOST THEIR LIVES. AS I AM SURE YOU ARE AWARE THIS CAN BE SIMPLY ACHIEVED ON THE COMMOMWEALTH WAR GRAVES COMMISSION SITE.

IF THIS WAS A VERE STREET MEMORIAL, I WOULD EPECT THAT ALL THE ADDRESSES WOULD ORIGINATE FROM THE VERY CLOSE PROXIMITY OF VERE STREET AND SALFORD LOCAL ADDRESSES, AND I WOULD NOT EXPECT THE ADDRESSES TO BE DISTANT PLACES AND LOCATIONS,AS AT THAT TIME THE LABOUR WOULD HAVE BEEN DRAFTED FROM THE IMMEDIATE PROXIMITY.

PLEASE KINDLY RESPOND. REGARDS ROY.

Regards,

Garry