Home for battered memorial sought

[manchester regiment]

a list of the names,addresses etc are on the manchester regt forum,been there since the memorial was discovered

mack

[shred]

More comments from Roy

Edited at Roy's request

WAR MEMORIAL DISCOVERED IN A MANCHESTER SCRAPYARD.

EARLIER THIS WEEK. ON N.W. TONIGHT ON T.V. IT FEATURED A FIND, SHOWING A BRONZE MEMORIAL PLAQUE, WHICH HAD BEEN FOUND BURIED IN A LOCAL SCRAP YARD.

IT HAD REMAINED BURIED FOR MANY YEARS, POSSIBLY SINCE APPROX THE LATE 1980 S.

THE PLAQUE CONTAINED THE NAMES OF 49 SOLDIERS WHO HAD DIED IN THE FIRST WORLD WAR CONFLICT 1914-1919.

APART FROM SHOWING THE INDIVIDUAL NAMES,AND REGIMENTS, UNFORTUNATELY THE PLAQUE HAD NO OTHER DETAILED INFORMATION TO SHOW ITS IDENTITY OR ORIGIN.

AS WITH ALL THESE MEMORIALS, THEY DEPICTED OFTEN THE NAMES OF A GROUP OF MEN WHO HAD SADLY ALL GIVEN THEIR LIVES FOR THE CAUSE, SOME WERE BASED ON LOCAL VILLAGES OR TOWNS. SOME FOR LOCAL CHURCHES. OFTEN ALSO FOR GROUPS OF WORKING EMPLOYEES, WHO HAD NEVER RETURNED.

THIS PLAQUE HAS BEEN THE SUBJECT OF APPEALS TO IDENTIFY IT, AND I HAVE OBSERVED LOTS OF VAUABLE RESEARCH THAT HAS BEEN CARRIED OUT ON A WEB SITE"THE GREAT WAR FORUM"

IT SEEMS NOW IN CONCLUSION THAT THE LIBRARY HAS BEEN CLEARLY ABLE TO IDENTIFY THE LOST PLAQUE.

SHOWN ON A PHOTO IN AN OLD BOOK, THE PLAQUE HAS NOW BEEN CLEARLY IDENTIFIED AS..ORIGINALLY STRUCK TO RECORD THE SOLDIERS KILLED, WHO WERE ALL APPARENTLY FROM THE C.W.S. JOINERY AND SHOPFITTING DEPT.

IT HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED THAT THIS PLAQUE HAD BEEN LOST, AND WAS ASSUMED IT HAD FADED AWAY FOR EVER,NEVER TO BE SEEN AGAIN.

ON THE T.V. THE INTERVIEWER AND PRESENTER ON THIS SUBJECT WAS SEEN STOOD IN THE CENTRE OF A MODERN COMPLEX OF SALFORD UNIVERSITY STUDENT RESIDENTIAL BLOCKS, SOME WHERE IN BROUGHTON, WHICH SHE DESCRIBED AS THE ORIGINAL SITE OF THE C.W.S. JOINERY AND SHOPFITTING WORKSHOPS IN 1919 AT BROUGHTON. LONG SINCE GONE AND REPLACED BY THE NEW BUILDINGS.

THE COMMEMORATIVE PLAQUE WAS ORIGINALLY STRUCK AFTER THE WAR ENDED IN 1919, AND APPARENTLY WAS DISPLAYED ON THE WALL OF THE BUILDING, IN WHICH THE MORE FORTUNATE JOINERS AND SHOPFITTERS WHO HAD SURVIVED AND RETURNED ALL WORKED.

TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE ,I BELIEVE THAT THESE PREMISES WERE KNOWN AS THE C.W.S. BROUGHTON LANE FACTORY OR WORKSHOPS.

I STARTED WORK IN THE C.W.S. JOINERY AND SHOPFITTING WORKSHOPS THEN LOCATED AT VERE STREET PREMISES, I STARTED IN 1954 UNTIL 1960,THE 6 YEAR PERIOD OF MY APPRENTISHIP.

WORKING WITH LONG ESTABLISHED OLD HANDS, JOINERS WHO HAD WORKED AT VERE STREET FOR MANY YEARS, FROM THEIR STORIES , I WAS ABLE TO VIEW THE PATTERN/JIGS OF AIRCRAFT/GLIDER , SECOND WORLD WAR WING ASSEMBLIES, I NEW THAT THEY HAD BEEN EMPLOYED IN JOINERY AND SHOPFITTING AT THE VERE STREET PREMISES THROUGH OUT THE SECOND WORLD WAR 1939-1945, HELPING THE WAR EFFORT.

I MENTION THIS FACT AS I NEVER NEW WHEN THE C.W.S. JOINERY AND SHOPFITTING DEPT, VERE STREET, HAD BEEN FORMED OR ESTABLISHED ,AS I NEW IT HAD NOT ALWAYS EXISTED THEIR AT VERE STREET.

WHILST WRITING THESE RAMBLINGS, OTHER DETAILS HAVE COME TO THE SURFACE, MUCH EARLIER IN MY NOTES, A VERY NICE LADY CONTRIBUTED BY REFERING ME TO ARIAL PHOTGRAPHS OF THE VERE STREET SITE IN 1925-1926.

FOR THOSE INTERESTED THESE CAN BE SEEN ON THE WEB SITE REF. http://www.images.manchester.gov.uk/ TWO PARTICULAR PICTURES ARE SHOWN,OF THE SALFORD DOCKS COMPLEX.

PICTURE 1, IS NUMBERED M67964 TITLED. DEPARTMENTS, VERE STREET, THE C.W.S.PACKING AND UNDERBODY AND WHEELWRIGHTS DEPT.VERE STREET.

THE SECOND PICTURE, 2. REF, M67968. TITLED, C.W.S. WHEELRIGHTS AND BODY BUILDERS WORKS,1926.

IT IS EVIDENT THAT THE VERE STREET PREMISES WAS ORIGINALLY A WORKSHOP THAT MADE PRESUMABLY HORSE DRAWN CARTS IN 1925-26, AS THEN THIS WAS THE THE GENERAL MODE OF TRANSPORT USED FOR DISTRIBUTION LOCALLY.

ALL C,W,S LOCAL RETAIL BUSINESSES IN EVERY TOWN,WOULD HAVE HAD STABLES,CART HORSES, AND DRAYS TO DELIVER GROCERIES, MILK, BREAD, TO DOMESTIC HOUSES.

AT THIS POINT I REALISED THAT THE JOINERY AND SHOPFITTING WAS ESTABLISHED AT SOME TIME BETWEEN 1926-1939 AT VERE STREET. BUT I HAD NO OTHER INFORMATION.

THOUGH WITH THIS WEEKS SEARCH ON THE PLAQUE,IT HAS BEEN STATED THAT THE BROUGHTON LANE FACTORY CLOSED IN 1931.

PRESUMABLY THIS WAS THE DATE THAT THE C.W.S.JOINERY AND SHOPFITTING DEPT. MOVED FROM BROUGHTON LANE PREMISES,AND TRANSFERED INTO THE NEW LOCATION AT VERE STREET.SALFORD 5.

FOR THOSE PEOPLE ON THE GREAT WAR FORUM WEB SITE,WHO I UNDERSTAND ARE NATIONAL AND INTERNATIONAL MEMBERS FROM ALL PARTS OF THE COUNTRY AND AROUND THE WORLD. I WILL RECAP ON THE LOCATION OF THE VERE STREET PREMISES.

THE FACTORY LONG SINCE GONE WAS DEMOLISHED APPROX,1986. IT STOOD IN A MAZE OF TYPICAL SALFORD TERRACED HOUSES AND COBBLED STREETS OFF ECCLES NEW ROAD, NOT FAR FROM CROSS LANE AND TRAFFORD ROAD.

IT BORDERED ONTO THE MANCHESTER SHIP CANAL,SALFORD DOCKS COMPLEX.

KNOWN AS VERE STREET PREMISES, VERE STREET EXTENDED FROM ECCLES NEW ROAD,AND WAS THE VERE STREET GATE ENTRANCE ONTO THE DOCKS AT THE WEST END OF THE WORKSHOP BUILDINGS. ACCESS INTO THE COOP WAS NOT VIA THE VERE STREET GATE,THE RAIL LINES OFF THE DOCKS ENTERED ON THIS SIDE OF THE FACTORY.

THE MAIN GATE ENTRANCE TO THE C.W.S. WAS ON MOUNTFORD STREET.

THIS WEEK IN VIEW OF SOME OFFERED COMMENTS ON THE G.W.F. WEB SITE, I HAD OCCASSION TO TAKE MY SONS FAMILY TO THE RAILWAY STATION IN MANCHESTER, ON MY RETURN TRIP I TOOK A TRIP DOWN MEMORY LANE AND DECIDED TO VIEW THE ORIGINAL SITE OF VERE STREET. PASSING DOWN, ECCLES NEW ROAD I TURNED INTO WEST ASHTON STREET, WHICH EXTENDS DOWN TO MOUNTFORD STREET AT THE BOTTOM. THIS WAS THE POSITION OF THE MAIN GATE ENTRANCE FACING INTO VERE STREET YARD.

STOPPING AT THE BOTTOM, FACING ME ON THE OPPOSITE SIDE OF THE ROAD IS THE NEW COOPERATIVE COMPUTER BANKING BUILDING KNOWN AS OLYMPIC HOUSE.

THIS BUILDING IS BUILT ACROSS THE ORIGINAL GATE ENTRANCE,IT EXTENDS TO THE LEFT,ADJACANT TO WHERE THE ORIGINAL BUILDING STILL OCCUPIED BY G.E.ROBINSONS,THURLOW MILLS,AND STILL OPERATES.

THE BUILDING IS NOT A LARGE BUILDING AND ONLY OCCUPIES A SMALL CORNER OF THE ORIGINAL SITE.IT IS HEAVILY SECURED AND IS OBVIOUSLY A COMPUTER HALL TYPE BUILDING.

TO THE RIGHT OF THE BUILDING, A NEW ROADWAY, NAMED OLYMPIC COURT OPENS OUT ONTO A NEW SITE OF MODERN INDUSTRIAL WORKSHOPS,ERECTED SINCE 1986.THE ENTRANCE TO OLYMPIC HOUSE IS ON THIS SQUARE .

A LARGE AMERICAN COMPANY SAFELINE U.K. NOW STANDS ON LEFT,AND I KNOW THAT THIS IS THE EXACT SITE PREVIOUSLY OCCUPIED BY THE JOINERY WORKSHOP AND CASEMAKING DEPT, THAT I WORKED IN 50 YEARS AGO..

FROM THE EARLIER PHOTOGRAPHS,IT IS APPARENT THAT THE CASEMAKING DEPATMENT EXISTED ON THE VERE STREET SITE PRIOR TO THE SHOPFITTING DEPT, AS IT IS SHOWN AND DESCRIBED IN THE PHOTO TITLES,1925-26.

WHILST IT IS DOCUMENTED THAT THE BROUGHTON LANE CLOSED 1931, I BELIEVE THAT THIS SHOULD READ. THAT THE JOINERY AND SHOPFITTING CLOSED AT BROUGHTON LANE IN 1931 AND POSSIBLY TRANSFERED ON THAT DATE TO BE RELOCATED AT VERE STREET.

IF THIS DEPARTMENT MOVED IN 1931, ONE WOULD PRESUME THAT THE MEMORIAL PLAQUE WAS ALSO TRANSFERED TO VERE STREET,AND MOUNTED IN THE NEW OFFICE BUILDING,

THE DEMISE OF THE C.W.S. AT VERE STREET IN 1986,WOULD ALSO SEEM TO COINCIDE WITH THE ARRIVAL OF THE PLAQUE IN THE SCRAP AT THE LOCAL SCRAP YARD.TO DATE I HAVE NOT LEARNED OF THE YARD LOCATION,WAS IT NEAR TO THE OLD VERE STREET SITE?

ON THE RESEARCH SITE, SPECULATION WAS MADE TO SOLDIERS,ADDRESSES INCLUDING ONES FROM CLITHEROE.

I AM SURE THAT THE ORIGINAL C.W.S. JOINERY AND SHOPFITTING DEPT.WOULD NOT HAVE HAD SATELITE BRANCHES OUT IN THE STICKS. IT WAS A SELF CONTAINED FACTORY,AND WOULD HAVE SENT MEN OUT TO DO WORK IN OTHER TOWNS,IN LODGINGS.

I HAVE ALSO STATED I WOULD HAVE EXPECTED THAT THE SOLDIERS WHO DIED,IF C.W.S. EMPLOYEES,AT BROUGHTON LANE, THAT I WOULD HAVE EXPECTED TO LEARN THAT THEIR ADDRESSES WHEN TRACED, WOULD HAVE BEEN LOCAL SALFORD AND MANCHESTER ADDRESSES.

FOR INSTANCE, SALFORD,WEASTE,ORDSALL,IRLAMS OF THE HEIGHTS,BROUGHTON.PRESTWICH,AGECROFT,ANCOATS,EVEN PENDLETON WHICH WAS MENTIONED AS NEAR CLITHEROE. PENDLETON IS VERY NEAR TO BROUGHTON.

FINALLY I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT BROUGHTON LANE FINALLY CLOSED IN 1931, BECAUSE AS FAR AS I CAN RECALL IN 1954I KNOW THAT BROUGHTON LANE WAS STILL OPERATIONAL AS THE C.W.S. CABINET MAKING FACTORY. I ALSO HAVE RECOLLECTIONS OF IT MAKING COFFINS FOR THE C.W.S.FUNERAL SERVICE. THE G.W.F.WEB SITE SHOWS THAT THE BROUGHTON LANE SITE WAS OPEN AS THE C.W.S. CABINET WORKS IN 1941, AND IT STATES IT CLOSED IN 1968, WHICH WOULD TIE IN WITH MY KNOWLEDGE.

I THINK THAT THE SPECULATION OF THE MEN FROM CLITHEROE TRAVELLING AND BEING EMPLOYED AT BROUGHTON LANE, I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THAT THEY MIGHT HAVE TRANSFERED OFF THE LAND IN A RURAL COMMUNITY, TO WORK IN THE TOWN,TO ASSIST THE WAR EFFORT, AND REPLACE THE ABSENCE OF LABOUR IN THE INDUSTRIAL TOWNS.

IF VERE STREET MADE GLIDER WINGS FOR THE SECOND WORLD WAR INVASION BACK INTO EUROPE, WHO KNOWS WHAT THE JOINERY AND SHOPFITTING DEPT, AT BROUGHTON LANE MIGHT HAVE BEEN MAKING TO ASSIST THE FIRST WORLD WAR EFFORT.

EMPLOYEES AT BROUGHTON LANE WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO TRAVEL EFFICIENTLY TO WORK DAILY ON THE ORIGINAL MANCHESTER AND SALFORD LOCAL ELECTRIC TRAM SYSTEM,AND WHILST THE STEAM RAILWAYS THEN WERE BRILLIANT,I DO NOT THINK THAT THE WORKING MAN WOULD HAVE COMMUTED FROM CLITHEROE TO MANCHESTER FOR A MANUAL OR SKILLED JOB, SUCH WORK EXISTED LOCALLY AND DID NOT WARRENT EXTENSIVE TRAVELLING.

EVEN IN 1954-60 THE MAJORITY OF JOINERS AND SHOPFITTERS WHO WORKED AT VERE STREET,COMMUTED RELATIVELY LOCALLY TO WORK,MOSTLY ON THE BUS,MANY ON BYCYCLES, MANY MORE ON FOOT. AT THIS TIME ONLY A VERY LIMITED NUMBER OF EMPLOYEES HAD THEIR OWN CAR,

I CAN ONLY REMEMBER AN ODD FEW WORKERS WHO CAME FROM OUTSIDE MANCHESTER AND SALFORD,COMING BY ELECTRIC TRAIN AND BUS FROM GLOSSOP.

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

Local Press reports of their deaths if anyone has access to Contemporary Papers from the area often give the Soldiers frormer employer.....

[Salfordian]

Not raising to the bait.

Did I miss a post about this?

Regards,

Garry

Mostonian is a bitter manc, who is gutted that the Great City of Salford ruled it's small brother Manchester when Salfordshire was a county enveloping the hamlet of Manchester !

[KevinBattle]

I've been impressed at how the progress from initial enquiry and speculation developed into finding the origins of this plaque.

One point strikes me and that is the scrap yard must have kept this plaque safe all those years and enabled this detective puzzle to be solved. It doesn't appear to be mentioned, but I'd like to tip my hat to those there that didn't allow it to be melted down. It seems that when no one else pays much regard to pieces of history being thrown away, there are still people who recognise the sacrifice or importance of some objects and ensure they are preserved until someone realises what they actually are.

So, scrapyard, take a bow, thanks for not destroying this memorial. If anyone does know which scrapyard, can they please pass my thanks on?

[ianw]

From memory the scrapyard was featured in the first BBC TV piece - I think they will have been thanked and know they are good guys - but I shudder to think what has been melted down over the years.

[Salfordian]

News from the Co-Op

Dear Steve

I have found some more information regarding the memorial. The Wheatsheaf journal during the First World War began listing the CWS employees that had died in action. They also listed the department that they worked in. I have found most of those on the memorial and can confirm they are also listed in the Wheatsheaf as having worked at Broughton Building Department. So this seems conclusive. Interestingly some are listed as Manchester Building Department. This may suggest that there was still a Building Department at Balloon Street as well as at Broughton. The building Department was at Ballon Street prior to 1913.

Therefore it must be that the men from Clitheroe moved down to Manchester to work at the Building and Shopfitting Department and must have gone back to Clitheroe to enlist.

Yours sincerely,

Adam Shaw

AND

Dear Steve

Thanks for the link you forwarded me. The names on the shopfitters memorial match the names on the large memorial at the Old Bank and are all listed as working at Broughton Building Department. There are a few differences in spellings of the names on the old bank memorial and the roll of honour put together by the member of your forum. But this may just be down to the quality of the photograph of the memorial. Just for your information- J Dunham is J Durham, T Fagan is T Fagen, T Hitchin is T Hitchen, and P Hulland is P Hullard. We have also had a suggestion from a researcher that A Gibbons was Austen Gibbons rather than Albert Gibbons.

Regarding the Clitheroe question, this is more tricky. In Clitheroe there was Withgill farm and Chaigeley Estate. Withgill Farm was used by the CWS as a dairy farm, cattle grazing, and pig feeding and rearing. Chaigeley Estate comprised of eight farms, three cottages and a manor house. These farms were also used as piggeries. In Sept 1914 it was decided that the manor house be occupied by Belgian refugees.

In 1913 the CWS building department moved from Balloon Street to larger premises at Broughton.

An idea that we are trying to explore further is that those men who enlisted at Clitheroe may have worked at Chaigeley Farm and then for whatever reason moved to Manchester in 1913 to begin work at the new building department premises at Broughton. It may have been a more preferable job. I am checking through the Co-operative News to try and find obituaries for those on the memorial. These may be able to confirm that the men were working at Broughton when they enlisted and possibly their connection with Clitheroe. This is a bit of a needle in hay stack search- but I will let you know as soon as I find anything.

Thanks to yourself and all the hard work that your group has carried out. This has certainly been something that has attracted a lot of interest and hopefully we can get to the bottom of.

Best wishes,

Adam Shaw

[jwp2007]

have done a bit of searching and came across these newspaper cuttings regarding belgian refugees at chaigley manor,

http://www.oldclitheroe.co.uk/page306.htm

cheers,

John.

[Mostonian]

QUOTE

As for resiting it on Vere Street or in Broughton

Did I miss a post about this?

Regards,

Garry

Post #107

Mostonian is a bitter manc, who is gutted that the Great City of Salford ruled it's small brother Manchester when Salfordshire was a county enveloping the hamlet of Manchester !

Salfordshire was never a county you ignoramus. It was a nickname give to the Hundred of Salford.

A Salford lad looking back into the mists of time eh? It explains the preponderance of mullets and bad denim I suppose. Anyway, seems I know more about your docks/quays than you eh? And don't forget when you tried to tell me that Salford had been a city longer than Manchester...

A Salford lad on holiday:

"Where are you from mate?"

"Salford."

"Where?"

"Near Manchester and Bolton."

"Ah right."

Bless.

[Ian Murphy]

I've been impressed at how the progress from initial enquiry and speculation developed into finding the origins of this plaque.

One point strikes me and that is the scrap yard must have kept this plaque safe all those years and enabled this detective puzzle to be solved. It doesn't appear to be mentioned, but I'd like to tip my hat to those there that didn't allow it to be melted down. It seems that when no one else pays much regard to pieces of history being thrown away, there are still people who recognise the sacrifice or importance of some objects and ensure they are preserved until someone realises what they actually are.

So, scrapyard, take a bow, thanks for not destroying this memorial. If anyone does know which scrapyard, can they please pass my thanks on?

Kevin,

I fully agree, a point that should always be remembered.

Best regards,

Ian.

[jwp2007]

may be straying away from the topic, so mods can delete this, came across this pic of my maternal grandad and cws van,

"Regarding the Clitheroe question, this is more tricky. In Clitheroe there was Withgill farm and Chaigeley Estate. Withgill Farm was used by the CWS as a dairy farm, cattle grazing, and pig feeding and rearing. Chaigeley Estate comprised of eight farms, three cottages and a manor house. These farms were also used as piggeries. In Sept 1914 it was decided that the manor house be occupied by Belgian refugees."

cheers,

John.

[ppc1919]

Have been doing some more delving as the area is directly over the main road from where my grandfather and his brothers had their workshop.

The Story of the CWS 1863 to 1913 throws some light on the building works and also the Slaters Directories (checked for the years during the war, until 1930).

As far back as 1888, the CWS were looking for land in Manchester for the manufacture of furniture. Crumpsall was ruled out as too distant. The land that they originally wanted for the works was at Knowsley Street in Cheetham (on the land of the Earl of Derby), but in 1889 and again in 1890, it was ruled out as costs for building would have meant that the CWS would not have been able to compete with the sweat(ed) shops of the time.

In 1891, the CWS purchased 8,717 square yards of freehold land at Trafalgar Street (off Broughton Lane) for £4,414. A further and adjoining plot of 3,070 square yards at Broughton (Broughton Lane) was bought in 1900 for £2,302. The land was 10 minutes walk away from the Balloon Street HQ.

"Outside the hub of Lancashire few people realise the city of Manchester and the Royal borough of Salford form one community, although separately classed in regard to population and for all official purposes, and certainly most co-operators visiting the Broughton factories are unaware of these being beyond the limits of statistical Manchester".

The next section is quoted in entirety.

"From before the year 1898 much friction existed between cabinet makers and the rather better-paid body of joiners, the dispute being as to whether shop-fitting belonged to one trade or the other. During five or six years the C.W.S. did its best to keep outside the quarrel, asking the two organisations themselves to agree, when the Wholesale Society would fall into line. In March, 1903, the Manchester branch of the Amalgamated Society of Carpenter and Joiners more insistently urged that the C.W.S. should draw the line between cabinet makers' and joiners' work at Broughton. The reply again was to the effect that such differences should be settled by the unions themselves. Later, the meeting being further pressed by the carpenters and joiners, the C.W.S. Committee agreed to "engage joiners to do future contracts for shop-fitting work." But in May the National Amalgamated Furnishing Trades Association declined to accept the C.W.S. decision, while in July the joiners complained that the C.W.S. was not carrying out its intention with sufficient speed. On July 20th an additional joiner was set at work in the shop-fitting department, whereupon some twenty-seven cabinet makers and machine operators went on strike. The diffferences between the two unions finally were resolved by the Parliamentary Committee of the Trades Union Congress, while Mr. J. C Gray negotiated between the cabinet makers and the C.W.S. After ten weeks of loss to the Wholesale Society, through a dispute in which it had no direct interest, the return of the cabinet makers was accepted without predujice to those workers. But in the following year, 1904, the shop-fitting was turned over to the C.W.S. building department. The Broughton cabinet works thus lost about one-half of its trade; therefore under the new management of Mr. F. E. Howarth, other branches were introduced and vigorously pushed forward to fill the gap. These included chair making, upholstering, and bedding manufacture. Recently the work of down and wadded quilt making has also been added, and with equal success".

The CWS also had a factory at Broughton for tailoring where shirts and corsets were made.

The manager of the CWS Building Department at Broughton Lane in 1914 was Herbert Townley. He was still the manager in 1930.

The building department was on the south side of Broughton Lane, along with the stables (the manager of the stables was Herbert R. Moore during the Great War) and the timber yard was on the north side (near to which were the Evening News stables).

(Click to enlarge)

[ianw]

Don't suppose that German bullets and shells distinguished between joiners and cabinet makers.

I am pleased that we may get an answer to the "Clitheroe Question. Nice that the CWS appreciates the work done by the Pals.

[ppc1919]

"Don't suppose that German bullets and shells distinguished between joiners and cabinet makers."

Very true, Ian! Nor, would they distinguish between Salfordians, Mancunians or Clitheronians (if the latter is the correct collective for the people of Clitheroe!)

[KevinBattle]

Has anyone followed up on the earlier observation that 49 killed out of the CWS workforce seemed extremely high?

Has anyone further details on how large a workforce was involved? 49 out of 250 would seem disproportionate, but out of a 1,000 not quite so bad...

[ProspectRoad2021]

Hi, I thought I'd share these photos. These are of the main CWS memorial at Balloon Street, Manchester. I took the photos because of the link with Irlam but on the original of the first photo you can clearly see the Broughton works and the names correspond to the recently found memorial. Unfortunately, because I've had to compress the size of the photos it's not legible (if anyone wants the full size photos pls pm me).

Cheers

Pete

[ralphjd]

Pete. thanks for posting the Ballon Street photos, can I ask you a big favour ? one of my men served and died with the 1/7th Manchesters Arthur James Milligan and was employed in the jewellery dept of the CWS, does his name appear on the memorial depicted ? if it does I would love a copy. Regards Ralph.

[ianw]

Has anyone followed up on the earlier observation that 49 killed out of the CWS workforce seemed extremely high?

I get the impression from the local history notes posted that there were upwards of 500 employed at what obviously was a big factory doing work for the CWS nationwide.

[ProspectRoad2021]

Pete. thanks for posting the Ballon Street photos, can I ask you a big favour ? one of my men served and died with the 1/7th Manchesters Arthur James Milligan and was employed in the jewellery dept of the CWS, does his name appear on the memorial depicted ? if it does I would love a copy. Regards Ralph.

Ralph, unfortunately I only took close-up photos of the top of the memorial. I can't see his name on the top half of the memorial. If you pm me your email address I'll send you what I have.

Regards

Pete

[ralphjd]

Pete. PM sent. Thanks. Ralph.

[jwp2007]

A link here to a site showing two war memorials in Clitheroe, where some of the men on the cws memorial are also remembered.

http://www.eastlancsmemorials.co.uk/ribble/ribblevalley.htm

John.

[Salfordian]

Post #107

Salfordshire was never a county you ignoramus. It was a nickname give to the Hundred of Salford.

A Salford lad looking back into the mists of time eh? It explains the preponderance of mullets and bad denim I suppose. Anyway, seems I know more about your docks/quays than you eh? And don't forget when you tried to tell me that Salford had been a city longer than Manchester...

A Salford lad on holiday:

"Where are you from mate?"

"Salford."

"Where?"

"Near Manchester and Bolton."

"Ah right."

Bless.

You really should spend your time on your website as promised. Young Mostonian

[shred]

Post #107

Cheers, as long as the memorial is safe in the future I have no personal preference as to where sited.

P.S. To those interested; Salfordiam & Mostonian are a pair of WUMs. ;-)

Regards,

Garry

[ianw]

The Clitheroe Castle memorial looks really nice and worthy of a visit when I am next up north.

[manchester regiment]

News from the Co-Op

Dear Steve

I have found some more information regarding the memorial. The Wheatsheaf journal during the First World War began listing the CWS employees that had died in action. They also listed the department that they worked in. I have found most of those on the memorial and can confirm they are also listed in the Wheatsheaf as having worked at Broughton Building Department. So this seems conclusive. Interestingly some are listed as Manchester Building Department. This may suggest that there was still a Building Department at Balloon Street as well as at Broughton. The building Department was at Ballon Street prior to 1913.

Therefore it must be that the men from Clitheroe moved down to Manchester to work at the Building and Shopfitting Department and must have gone back to Clitheroe to enlist.

Yours sincerely,

Adam Shaw

AND

Dear Steve

Thanks for the link you forwarded me. The names on the shopfitters memorial match the names on the large memorial at the Old Bank and are all listed as working at Broughton Building Department. There are a few differences in spellings of the names on the old bank memorial and the roll of honour put together by the member of your forum. But this may just be down to the quality of the photograph of the memorial. Just for your information- J Dunham is J Durham, T Fagan is T Fagen, T Hitchin is T Hitchen, and P Hulland is P Hullard. We have also had a suggestion from a researcher that A Gibbons was Austen Gibbons rather than Albert Gibbons.

Regarding the Clitheroe question, this is more tricky. In Clitheroe there was Withgill farm and Chaigeley Estate. Withgill Farm was used by the CWS as a dairy farm, cattle grazing, and pig feeding and rearing. Chaigeley Estate comprised of eight farms, three cottages and a manor house. These farms were also used as piggeries. In Sept 1914 it was decided that the manor house be occupied by Belgian refugees.

In 1913 the CWS building department moved from Balloon Street to larger premises at Broughton.

An idea that we are trying to explore further is that those men who enlisted at Clitheroe may have worked at Chaigeley Farm and then for whatever reason moved to Manchester in 1913 to begin work at the new building department premises at Broughton. It may have been a more preferable job. I am checking through the Co-operative News to try and find obituaries for those on the memorial. These may be able to confirm that the men were working at Broughton when they enlisted and possibly their connection with Clitheroe. This is a bit of a needle in hay stack search- but I will let you know as soon as I find anything.

Thanks to yourself and all the hard work that your group has carried out. This has certainly been something that has attracted a lot of interest and hopefully we can get to the bottom of.

Best wishes,

Adam Shaw

hiya steve.

adam says that the a.gibbons could be austin gibbons,only two men served in WW1 by this name,both were killed in action,one of them was a lad from birkenhead,he had no connection to the CWS,the other lad was a original member of the 18th manchesters,he was killed with the 17th manchesters,his occupation was dyer,is there a chance that you could contact adam,and ask him if he has anything on j.laventry,this surname doesnt exist in any civil or military records but there was a j.lafferty who worked for the CWS.

many thanks

mack