dragonz Posted 26 January , 2009 Share Posted 26 January , 2009 Paul, the black lines are troughs(shadows) between ridges in the pattern under the red enamaled cross. So looks like a lot of careful work has been involved there. Makes me suspect the use of origional or very well made new dies here? The Union Cross detail is less obvious on the back striking of mine.Also has a scratched in number on it. Though hard to see in pics, the central 'God Guard Thee' mottoe letters should be red enamaled also. Cheers ! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 26 January , 2009 Share Posted 26 January , 2009 (edited) Are we sure that this is an ORs badge. The first ones were UK made and die struck, the 2 pattern ones are all brass and theatre made (Southern Africa) cast brass ones exist then is this not just a little ornate for an ORs badge. Following on from a previous thread this is almost 100% certainly a private purchase badge and I would suggest an Officers? Alan Edited 28 January , 2019 by max7474 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonz Posted 26 January , 2009 Share Posted 26 January , 2009 Alan, You are correct, I'm sure. My apologies for not noting this B4. I think only Cox mentions it as such? Gaylor refered to it as the most commonly found example.?? Cheers! Steve PS: Chapter 6 of Westlake's "Kitchener's Army" has a good group photo showing Officer & W/O wearing bronzed caps & collars ,while O/R's wear the standard brass types, only. The corporal looks to be wearing a R/Grenade/F type shoulder title? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 26 January , 2009 Share Posted 26 January , 2009 Are we sure that this is an ORs badge. If the first pattern were home made from GG badges, 2 pattern ones are all brass and theatre made (Southern Africa) cast brass ones exist then is this not just a little ornate for an ORs badge. Following on from a previous thread this is almost 100% certainly a private purchase badge and I would suggest an Officers? I think the 25th RF Frontiersmen badges are an area that requires some serious research as I'm of the opinion that some of the information 'out there' isn't right. However trying to prove any of it is a different matter. I've had some lengthy discussions in the past with one of the Frontiersmen historians, the end result being that we think the 'type 3' badge is a post-war Battalion 'Association' badge and not one worn in the field. I've not seen any photos at all that show this style of badge being worn however, this is not a good argument against it's use/non use as the 'type 2' is the only one that I've seen photos of being worn. Perhaps Steve (dragonz) can help us out with some photos to help clarify? Here's hoping.... Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonz Posted 26 January , 2009 Share Posted 26 January , 2009 SteveE( & others), Have no photos myself,but study closely( & save some) all I see in books & on Web sites, Ebay,etc. Indeed,your doubts about type 3 may be close to the actual truth,here.??? For 'association' substitute 'Legion of Frontiersmen' & we may be onto it? Have seen pics of it worn by them only, so far. But as the 'respected' references do not make this distinction,have continued to assume a possibility of Wartime use, so far. This is a study 'in progress' by myself & others, at the present..... join the crew ! No definite results ,as yet ! Cheers,indeed ! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 26 January , 2009 Share Posted 26 January , 2009 Chaps, I agree that the post-war association badge is a really strong possibility. It just seems all wrong for a single regt that spent the latter part of the war in East Africa where London jewlellers were in short supply. Their abundance is not a point in their favour. Of course if anyone has a photo then this will claify it but as yet I have never seen one. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonz Posted 26 January , 2009 Share Posted 26 January , 2009 refer to page 3 lower RH pic of this site...... http://www.frontiersmenhistorian.info/ Cheers ! Steve PS: alluded to this in my post #125 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 26 January , 2009 Share Posted 26 January , 2009 The 'God Guard Thee' is not red, and the lugs may be as you describe. I've had another go with the camera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 26 January , 2009 Share Posted 26 January , 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 26 January , 2009 Share Posted 26 January , 2009 I've got a couple of pictures saved of a badge which looks to have the motto in red, also a void under the grenade. If the person who took these pictures would like them removed, just contact me. Cheers, Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Doyle Posted 26 January , 2009 Share Posted 26 January , 2009 I need to get me one of those.... Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Doyle Posted 26 January , 2009 Share Posted 26 January , 2009 Ok, so what do we think of this one....11th (Lonsdale) Bn Border Regt... Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7t2ndswinger Posted 26 January , 2009 Share Posted 26 January , 2009 Ok, so what do we think of this one....11th (Lonsdale) Bn Border Regt... Peter Peter, IMHO if I saw it listed on ebay I'd give it a miss. The rear stamping looks very shallow and undefined and the lugs appear to have feet. Although it's not a foolproof sign of a genuine badge these days (as I've been told that there's a 'person' who can superglue one on any badge you want -obviously a badge which usually has them would be the best bet I suppose) I'd rather see one with Gaunt makers plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 26 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 26 January , 2009 Sorry Peter, would not touch it. No Gaunt plate and it just dont look right. To crisp and sharp at the front and like the above too shallow at the rear. My opinion only of course. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Doyle Posted 26 January , 2009 Share Posted 26 January , 2009 That's fine chaps, exactly as I saw it too. Simple place-holder; cost me next to nothing. I was hoping that someone would post a real badge. With regards to Gaunt tablets, maker stamps, etc, I must admit that I never take those things to be genuine without other supporting evidence. Look at Paul's RF Jewish Battalion's badge - stamped Starr. Is that one genuine? Judgement call, as usual. looking forward to a genuine badge - anyone? Cheers Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7t2ndswinger Posted 26 January , 2009 Share Posted 26 January , 2009 That's fine chaps, exactly as I saw it too. Simple place-holder; cost me next to nothing. I was hoping that someone would post a real badge. With regards to Gaunt tablets, maker stamps, etc, I must admit that I never take those things to be genuine without other supporting evidence. Look at Paul's RF Jewish Battalion's badge - stamped Starr. Is that one genuine? Judgement call, as usual. looking forward to a genuine badge - anyone? Cheers Peter I have this one in my reference pictures but only the front. It did mention a Gaunt plate though, I noted that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulianB Posted 27 January , 2009 Share Posted 27 January , 2009 I have what is definately a fake KLR 1896 pattern which has an identical Starr stamp on the slider, down to the missing initial, position on the slider etc etc. Therefore I would be very suspicious of Paul's J RF Bn badge (as I told him !). J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Doyle Posted 27 January , 2009 Share Posted 27 January , 2009 'Figures, Julian... Mind you, that's a nice Lonsdale Bn badge (I think I know where that came from). Another aspiration... Cheers Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 27 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 27 January , 2009 My Lonsdale badge! Another Messers Bosley purchase I'm afraid but having said that I am sure it is original. Looking at the finish I think it to be unissued. Has the Gaunt tablet centre scroll though I have seen them in the wing as well. Thogh the photo of the rear is rather dark the detail is clear. Matching loops, never seen a slidered Lonsdale. Regards TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Doyle Posted 27 January , 2009 Share Posted 27 January , 2009 Nice, especially useful with the rear view. As my badge seems to lave lugs with feet, just checking - does yours? Cheers Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 27 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 27 January , 2009 Hard to say as the solder obscures...more pod like than feet like though. If you get my drift. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Doyle Posted 27 January , 2009 Share Posted 27 January , 2009 Thanks! Will have to get looking; so far two badges on my shopping list... Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 27 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 27 January , 2009 Only two? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 27 January , 2009 Share Posted 27 January , 2009 Chaps, can I say what a superb thread this is. Apart from the fact I've realised why I gave up badge collecting 20 years ago, it is really good to see discussion and disagreement rather than argument and point-scoring. No name-calling, no-one taking their ball home. This thread is a real credit to its contributors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Doyle Posted 27 January , 2009 Share Posted 27 January , 2009 Only two? So far....still got a few more pics to post, but a bit afraid it will add to my list! Peter Chaps, can I say what a superb thread this is. Apart from the fact I've realised why I gave up badge collecting 20 years ago, it is really good to see discussion and disagreement rather than argument and point-scoring. No name-calling, no-one taking their ball home. This thread is a real credit to its contributors. Thanks Stephen, I'm happy with it, and i guess my pals are too. Thanks for setting the thing off TT, just what I'd hoped! (cue warm inner glow) Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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