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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Pals Cap and Shoulder Badges


trenchtrotter

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Best I can do on size.

Thanks, looks like the Leeds Pals one fits the ideal, but what about the Wandsworth Battalion, assuming this is a real one, what makes a fake one?

Peter

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Peter,

Just logged back on and will assess your badges and give my opinion but a quick look and I would say that your Bham and Leeds are rights as you suggest and the Wandsworth is wrong. Should have a makers mark on the rear F Starr of Putney. This is supposedly found on the rear of the first batch made and on the sliders of the second / later batches. I have also never heard of a lugged varient.

At first glance the !8th Public Works looks ok but I will study in greater depth. I have seen a shorter slidered version and a friend has an example. I will ask to have a look at his and compare.

Regards

TT

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In relation to the Bham badge one should look for fur and muscle definition on the antelope, small jewels in the coronet / collar around the neck and a little goatee beard on the animals chin..

The standard badges lack this detail and any so called Bham Pals without the above features is wrong.

Regards

TT

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Thanks TT. The B'ham pals one has the goatee too. The Wandsworth ones are a bit questionable, I agree. I wonder if anyone else has a lugged version? What about the bronze version?

Cheers

Peter

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I have heard of the Wandsworth with maker mark on the back of the badge. I had thought it logical that it would be a lugged badge. If not I wonder where it was stamped, under the slider? I hope to see one.

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Wardog,

Yes the first batch were stamped on the rear under the slider presumably before the sliders were added / soldered on. The second batch ( which is the example I have ) has the stamp on the slider. The story I was told by Stephen Bosley as I recall is that the first pattern went out with the original battalion and after their heavy losses particularly in the Spring offensives of 1918 new recruits / transferees recieved the second type with the mark on the slider.

I have seen examples of both in collections and the one with the stamp below the slider was shown to Mr Bosley who thought it was right.

As stated they are so rare that it is difficult to have and hold. With the exception of silver varients I think this is the rarest of Pals badges.

Re the bronzed version, if an ORs cap badge I have only ever heard of bi metal types and knowing nothing of Officers badges I wont post a comment.

Finally I have as stated only heard of and seen slidered badges of this type.

TT

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Food for thought...here is my example. Looks to have been either stored in a damp environment or excavated ( a suggestion put to me ) though I think not. This was obtained from a dealer and I have shown it to others who like it. Your thoughts and observations welcome1

Note I was going to delay this badge pending full discussion on the 18th but the topic has led here so here we go!!

TT

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NB York 16 your shoulder title looks ok to me. I have in the past bought a hooky Sheffield one, but thats for later.

TT

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Just been on the Badge Forum and there is an example of the Wandsworth with details stamped on reverse, but no sign of any fittings. Don't know how I missed it, as I posted on the same thread! I have one similar to yours TT. Was an eBay buy and I've been expecting a flood of them since, but in the 4 year period I searched, I only saw one other. I hope others will join in this thread as we need more examples and opinions. Nothing wrong in showing badges that may be duff, we all have them.

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Mine is the only example I have had the chance to aquire also.

Regards

TT

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I have a bronze example with the Starr stamp to the rear. I'd like to post it (and the Bermondsey collars) but haven't got the means to reduce the picture down to the forums limitations whilst keeping it large enough to see. I can email the pics to either of you if you'd like to pm with email addresses.

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Here, I hope is a bradford Pals shoulder title. The lugs are a bit out of shape. I bought it privately with no provenance so would appreciate any views.

Keith

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Here, I hope is a bradford Pals shoulder title. The lugs are a bit out of shape. I bought it privately with no provenance so would appreciate any views.

Keith

Looks good to me! I have one, but I think its dodgy; it is conveniently smooth, as if it's been ground a bit to take off casting marks. Yours looks like it has a good patina.

Cheers

Peter

Wardog - your badge looks pretty bright, is the casting sharp? Certainly has similar features to TT's.

Peter

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Probably brightened it up too much. Not got your camera skills. Very solid inc. slider. Colour is a cross between the IWM one and TT's. Its more chunky than the lugged badge type you (and I ) have, but in some things that badge has more detail, ie it looks to be small fleu de whatsits around the shield. I would have used a toothbrush and soap on it. Only badge I've not done that to is my 2nd Birmingham Pals. I notice the little bird on the Leeds badge should have a 'proud chest', and the owl heads not inclined inwards. Regards, Paul.

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Thanks for posting the pictures Peter.

I'd like to point out the OSD is a two part badge, bronzed brass on brass with the central shield and crown an overlay and no sign of fixings. Starr (who were an umbrella maker in Putney High Street I've been told) appear to have been able to braize parts together without the need for sweatholes.

Keith

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No problem mate, a pleasure. I am glad to have seen both TT's and your Wandsworth badges, as they help in our understanding quite a lot. (My iffy bronze one is also two part).

So, I guess our current understanding of Wandsworth Bn badges is that they are:

1. Fitted with a slider unless OSD Bronze; and

2. Marked with F. Starr, Putney (which makes locational sense), either behind the fixings, or on the slider itself

the jury is still out on braze holes.

Cheers

Peter

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I have a Wandsworth badge with lugs and no maker stamp! It’s been in my collection for getting on for forty years and I have always been happy with it, not so sure about my Cardiff badge though! I’ll try and post a picture when I work out how.

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I have owned one of these lugged Wandsworth and IMO it was an early copy. The reverse of the slidered one is properly 'crisscrossed' or 'hatched' where as the lugged one was patchty. In addition the brass was very yellow and typical of early copies.

The originals are not the best made badges but then Starr were not a badge company as has been mentioned and I believe the badges were a private order by the regtl sponsors to a local firm in 1915. I remain sceptical about a 1918 issue as the WD had taken over supply of the Pals Bns by then and this was not an authorised badge and therefore would not have been supplied by the WD. For some reason the Liverpool Pals was authorised but most of the other Pals Bns were not.

Alan

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