dragonz Posted 20 January , 2009 Share Posted 20 January , 2009 How about the others? Doubtful? Cheers Peter Peter, IMO,I think that the previous info & badges seems pretty much correct ,as posted. The old story of 'rather the badge in the hand' always applies though? Interesting point about the more horizontal tails on the PW Pioneers badges.Had not noticed that B4. Looks to be at least 3 different makers of these ,then? A single manufacturer's badges should all be very similar,as the 'striking dies' would all be made from the same 'master hub'. Cheers ! Steve PS: a point about the 'crimp lines'.....they should not be too far from the actual bend and be more a 'V' shape, than a 'U'shape(as often artificially applied later by the 'bad guys') Cheers,again ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Doyle Posted 21 January , 2009 Share Posted 21 January , 2009 Thanks! How about the Jewish Bns badge? Cheers Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonz Posted 21 January , 2009 Share Posted 21 January , 2009 SteveE, you are right to ask what validation I can supply for the badges posted. No problem,other than it may take a couple of postings to give an acceptable answer. Then, maybe not ! Especially from someone who lives on the other side of the world to the origional production centres of these items ?? An old friend & experienced Antique Dealer(he started dealing in the London Markets in the 50's)once told me that 'most people can know a little about a lot of things & a lot about a few things'. With today's resources this can be extended somewhat more, but in general I think this still applies. I do'nt hold myself as an 'Expert' by any means, but as with most badge collectors,I have a few 'special' areas that I take a very keen interest in. One of these being the 25th Frontiersmen.This results from not wanting to spend my hard-earned & fairly limited resourses( considering the items involved) on useless junk. Do'nt we all ?? Anything in particular,just ask ! With todays proliferation of reproduction badges, it has become much more important than ever to be careful? In leu of undisputeable provenance ,reliable information & collective experience is the key ? Hence the importance of Forums,like this one. Most often it is what is NOT right with a certain badge, that is the real answer. With the PW Pioneers badges,for example ,I was unaware of the scroll ends angle, until now. Most helpful !! I initially consulted K&K(70's),Gaylor(60's),Westlake's 'Kitchener's Army'(recent), & Cox's(80's ?) books to see their examples. All showed this more 'horizontal' tail-ends except for Westlake. Unusual for him?? Add to this my own( & others) years of studying badges,for the generally accepted correct details, & a reasonable conclusion(IMO) can be reached ??.My own example of this particular badge is not a 'real' one ,but a 'in-fill', for now. Though I agee with the conclusions of others on these here(based in part ,on this 'angle' detail), I would add a further observation on a couple of them,if I may? TT's badge with the long slider has a 'crimp-line' that is a little far from the bend & is angled differently to the actual bend, but could accept that, I guess & Peter's one has a slider that looks a little too wide for it's length? Not the general 'norm' for WW1 badges,but these may just be manufacturer's differences? Note that 'crimp lines' are not found on all genuine WW1 badges ,but up till recently ,these were held to usually be a good sign. Cheers, I think ! Steve PS: Peter is there a missing LH wm tail on your PW badge ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Doyle Posted 21 January , 2009 Share Posted 21 January , 2009 PS: Peter is there a missing LH wm tail on your PW badge ? Yes, there is. I took that to be a good sign, personally. I go on 'how it feels', a bit odd, as these are lumps of metal, but some just look right, don't they? I'm happy with the kind of variation of sliders etc we have talked about, as there may well have been more than one producer. This would explain any amount of variations of this type seen in non-pals (but correct) badges. This thread has been good in laying out in simple terms what is good, bad and indifferent. I guess with the Frontiersmen badge (i've never seen one!), it would be useful to know how an original of the second variety in particular differs from a restrike in a couple of lines. I guess that's what Steve was asking. Cheers Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 21 January , 2009 Share Posted 21 January , 2009 Some copies of the 2nd Frontiersmen badge lack the void under the grenade. Not sure if originals were made like that. Very pleased my thoughts on the angle of the Public Works 'Middlesex' scroll tail ends have proved usefull, though I'm sure it must have been spoted by others before now. The copies follow the standard badge. Cheers, Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Doyle Posted 21 January , 2009 Share Posted 21 January , 2009 Interesting point about the void, not considered that before; any other pointers for this badge? Best Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 21 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 21 January , 2009 Soaking all this up. Time for a new badge to discuss soon. One point re 18th Middlesex badge. I am sure that there was more than one maker only because a well reknowned badge dealer has sold two patterns that he has been 100 % sure of. He has a huge reputattion and would always offer cash refund. The big differences are the length of slider and the method the lower scroll is attached. Regards TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonz Posted 21 January , 2009 Share Posted 21 January , 2009 For those interested in the 25th frontiersmen's badges,this may,or may not,help ? For the moment, anyway. Can dicuss further,if you wish, though? You may have to join to get the pics,here? http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/sh...ht=frontiersmen Cheers ! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonz Posted 21 January , 2009 Share Posted 21 January , 2009 There are varieties,especially of the 2nd pattern. Most duds, of those, have a shorter slider & no gap under the grenade. The example shown there is O/R's. Officers were cast bronze . Thought I'd mentioned that ? Cheers ! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 21 January , 2009 Share Posted 21 January , 2009 For those interested in the 25th frontiersmen's badges,this may,or may not,help ? Steve Thanks for the link, very interesting! Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 22 January , 2009 Share Posted 22 January , 2009 Sorry DragonZ. I must pay attention in class. Cheers, Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonz Posted 22 January , 2009 Share Posted 22 January , 2009 Paul, I was always getting that on my school reports ! Have included here a pic of the ball of pattern 2 grenade. Features ........ better crown, & sits directly on ball curved up bottom edge at top of '5' fine horizontal bars inside numerals gap between ball & scroll Not shown here..... much more curved edges on flames, as is obvious on period o/r's portraits ? The copies seem to lack these details & also seem to be an almost direct copy of Officer's bronzed cast badges, that is shown in most books, which differ from this (except for the gap). Some have a die fault also on the scroll edge under 'FRONT.....' Hope this helps?? Cheers & thanks for your patience Guys ! Steve (NZ) PS: Only have an real interest in some of the Kitcheners Army badges, not all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Doyle Posted 22 January , 2009 Share Posted 22 January , 2009 Just the job - thanks! Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7t2ndswinger Posted 22 January , 2009 Share Posted 22 January , 2009 Paul, I was always getting that on my school reports ! Have included here a pic of the ball of pattern 2 grenade. Features ........ better crown, & sits directly on ball curved up bottom edge at top of '5' fine horizontal bars inside numerals gap between ball & scroll Not shown here..... much more curved edges on flames, as is obvious on period o/r's portraits ? The copies seem to lack these details & also seem to be an almost direct copy of Officer's bronzed cast badges, that is shown in most books, which differ from this (except for the gap). Some have a die fault also on the scroll edge under 'FRONT.....' Hope this helps?? Cheers & thanks for your patience Guys ! Steve (NZ) PS: Only have an real interest in some of the Kitcheners Army badges, not all. Some really useful information there Steve, Thanks Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonz Posted 22 January , 2009 Share Posted 22 January , 2009 HOWEVER........ who can say,with complete certainty, nowadays ,what other varieties may have been worn at that time also. There is however,a reasonably high degree of certaincy as to what was not worn, though. ie; one of the very many,usually seen repros ! If it looks & feels right to you ,comes from a good source & you are happy with it , then that's fine also. Cheers ! Steve PS: My pleasure, Keith ! It is basically a London Regt. is'nt it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7t2ndswinger Posted 22 January , 2009 Share Posted 22 January , 2009 HOWEVER........ who can say,with complete certainty, nowadays ,what other varieties may have been worn at that time also. There is however,a reasonably high degree of certaincy as to what was not worn, though. ie; one of the very many,usually seen repros ! If it looks & feels right to you ,comes from a good source & you are happy with it , then that's fine also. Cheers ! Steve PS: My pleasure, Keith ! It is basically a London Regt. is'nt it ? Certainly is! My sphere of collecting means I need a Wandsworth, Middlesex, Frontiersmen and Jewish Btns RF. To date I only have the OSD Wandsworth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 22 January , 2009 Share Posted 22 January , 2009 Anyone any thoughts on the Jewish Bns RF badge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 22 January , 2009 Share Posted 22 January , 2009 I have a few 'special' areas that I take a very keen interest in. One of these being the 25th Frontiersmen. Steve I can't find the reference on this thread so I must have read it last night on the link you provided to the British Badge Forum (which now seems to have disappeared?, hope it wasn't me registering that did it ) but you mentioned you had photos/images of 25th RF men etc. As I've also got a keen interest in the battalion I was wondering if they're something else you could possibly share? Yours hopefully Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Doyle Posted 22 January , 2009 Share Posted 22 January , 2009 Anyone any thoughts on the Jewish Bns RF badge? Yeah - I'm waiting with bated breath! Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7t2ndswinger Posted 22 January , 2009 Share Posted 22 January , 2009 Yeah - I'm waiting with bated breath! Peter I liked the look of it mainly down to the slider shape. Is this the hardest one to make an opinion on, I certainly think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Doyle Posted 23 January , 2009 Share Posted 23 January , 2009 OK - time for another badge. Here's a genuine and repro 16th Welsh (Cardiff) Bn badge, front and back...I hope. Any views? (I've also got a pukka looking bronze version) Peter (Ps Repro one- the top two images, genuine one, the bottom two...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 23 January , 2009 Share Posted 23 January , 2009 Yep. as you say. Top bad, bottom good. Lots of differences once you start looking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 23 January , 2009 Share Posted 23 January , 2009 http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/sh...ghlight=cardiff This is a very good thread on the badges. They are of course neither cap nor 'Cardiff Pals' Bn badges but the Cardiff City Bn collars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Doyle Posted 23 January , 2009 Share Posted 23 January , 2009 Yep, assumed we knew it was a collar badge. Sorry for not spelling it out. Useful link that. Particularly as the fake/repro version (my top pics) is now being peddled as a genuine item with polishing damage (more like the application of a power buffer). Comparing the two, I'd say: 1. the Fake one is flatter; 2. the pressing is such that the features stand out in a very angular manner (hence the need for the buffer!), particularly on the flag; and 3. The heads on the beasties are a bit larger. Might b more on that. Thanks for your replies chaps! Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 23 January , 2009 Share Posted 23 January , 2009 Mentioned on the British Military Badge Forum, the horns of the left beast go father down the back on an original. On a fake, the 'seahorse' looks to have a smile. Other things include the shape of the center Dragon creature and its wings. Also the font of CARDIFF is smaller on an original, and has more 'style', note the R and D. Also on the original the two Fs have a shorter middle bar than the top bar. Sorry for any terms used that are incorrect! Cheers, Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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