Fromelles16: July 19th events

[dekenai]

Speaking for the Australians their religion was recorded in their service records. Having said that, I have seen service records with more than one religion mentioned.

To answer your last question ... that will be a matter decided between the powers and rightly so

Bright Blessings

Sandra

hhmmmm? decided by the powers rightly so--not sure about that.

I have a healthy suspicion of the 'Powers that be'

I too have a religion stamped on my birth certificate, but wouldn't like to identified with a religion nowadays and wouldn't want it on my headstone---(am l off to hell for that!)

[Victoria Burbidge]

hhmmmm? decided by the powers rightly so--not sure about that.

I have a healthy suspicion of the 'Powers that be'

I too have a religion stamped on my birth certificate, but wouldn't like to identified with a religion nowadays and wouldn't want it on my headstone---(am l off to hell for that!)

Who knows????

The decision to mark the headstones of “Unknown Soldiers” with a cross was taken quite early in the life of the Imperial War Graves Commission. I have no idea of the figures involved, but I would suspect that the majority of the combatants would have been Christian in one form or another. I imagine that this would have influenced the decision somewhat.

It’s worth remembering that the “powers that be” have cared for the graves of our loved ones for many years, often when we have been unable to do so ourselves. This is particularly so when, as in the case of the Australian dead, the final resting place is a long way from home.

V.

[Fedelmar]

Ooopsss ... I was speaking about today's headstones ... sorry

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[Victoria Burbidge]

Well, the numbers are growing. We now have a total figure of 312 British missing for Fromelles. Having started to work our way through the War Diaries, it would seem that, as Mel has already pointed out, the majority of these would probably be the 2/7 Warwicks who encountered very little opposition when crossing No Man’s Land and managed to get beyond the German front line trench and into the German support trenches. It was between these two points that they suffered the majority of their losses (76 missing).

The 2/6 Warwicks were mown down in No Man’s Land, but it is possible that some of them could have made it as far as the German breastwork. We know that the Germans retrieved the dead from along their breastwork and from the “safer” parts of No Man’s Land, so possibly some of these men could increase the numbers at Pheasant Wood. Their missing also totals 76.

The number of British missing so far are:

Loos – 305

Ploegsteert – 4

Thiepval – 3

Many thanks to Andy Pay for supplying copies of the relevant War Diaries, Marc Thompson for all the relevant details from SDGW and, mostly, to Mr. B. for creating a truly wonderful spreadsheet in which to calculate all sorts of figures. Me thinks he may have caught the bug!

We have some more cross-checking to do (we’ve come across some strange anomalies – there are e-mails to CWGC pending!) and then we should be able to give you the final figures. We won’t be able to do much more over the next few days, but we’re hoping to get up to Kew in the not-too-distant future to check the details on the service records of some of these men and also to check on the contents of the papers for some of the officers. The latter are most likely to give a good indication of whether or not the help of the Red Cross was sought when attempting to establish the whereabouts of the officer concerned and (hopefully) some documentation to prove that he was buried by the Germans. A few of those would be very useful.

Fingers crossed!

V.

[Victoria Burbidge]

Ooopsss ... I was speaking about today's headstones ... sorry

No need to apologise. We understood.

[Fedelmar]

Well done Victoria ... have to say that I am pleased to see that people are gathering together to get the information compiled.

Did records surive of family members that were paid pensions and if so what information is contained in them?

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[Fedelmar]

Victoria ... here are some samples of what is in the Australia records.

[Fedelmar]

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[Fedelmar]

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[dekenai]

Who knows????

The decision to mark the headstones of “Unknown Soldiers” with a cross was taken quite early in the life of the Imperial War Graves Commission. I have no idea of the figures involved, but I would suspect that the majority of the combatants would have been Christian in one form or another. I imagine that this would have influenced the decision somewhat.

It’s worth remembering that the “powers that be” have cared for the graves of our loved ones for many years, often when we have been unable to do so ourselves. This is particularly so when, as in the case of the Australian dead, the final resting place is a long way from home.

V.

Fair enough V,

but l doubt the 'Powers to be' are the ones tending the gardens and lawns. I will say though, yes, someone has to do the desk work and push paper--as long as he doesn't see his position as power.

cheerio

[Ozzie]

The soldiers fell where they fell, never to be returned home, and the powers of the time buried them, and arranged for the care of their burial sites for ever more.

The ones that get their hands dirty, in tending to the graves of the fallen, are often family members of the original caretakers, and have done their job with diligence and care through war and peace.

We should remember their dedication also.

Regards

Kim

[MelPack]

Fedelmar

They are fascinating documents.

I note that the actual confirmations are dated October 1919. Is this when the personal possessions were returned?

If so, then the distinction between the four figure and six figure British TF casualties may well be a complete red herring.

Regards

Mel

[Auimfo]

Mel,

The Australian authorities were notified generally late-ish in 1916 and the families mostly received the ID discs and property around the same time. I think the above documentation is just confirmation made after the war.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[MelPack]

Tim

Thanks for the clarification.

regards

Mel

[tripit]

Elle, thank you. You have perfectly illustrated the point which I was trying to make, that the Forum is no place for religious discussion - and here we are, discussing it once again. We all have our own beliefs and some feel these things more strongly than others.

At no point have I said that Forum members are not entitled to their opinion. My husband and I spent all day yesterday and most of today trying to collate a list of the British missing from Fromelles (1916). I should be doing that now rather than (in my view) wasting time defending my statement that the Great War Forum is not the place for religious discussion.

You are quite right; when it comes to subject of death, there are no facts. None. It is all a matter of personal belief, but I cannot bear being told that my grandfather's brother was killed at Fromelles and is not resting in peace and I'm sure that there are plenty of other Forum members who feel exactly the same way about this subject. In fact, I know there are because they have told me so.

If an emotional response is required, then I will invite any Forum member to walk the battlefield with me, kneel in the mud with me and cradle the shattered bones of a man who was denied the honour of any sort of a burial. A mother's child. Believe me, when you have experienced that, the men at Pheasant Wood begin to look as if they fared slightly better with regard to a burial.

V.

Victoria. i have done that walk ,have cradelled men of my own regiment and not a preist in sight ,they both lost there fight for life and i was left to fight on not able to see just laid there hoping to be found , I still walk that battlefield every dayand every night .Frommells

was a good insight if you were there ,mine was a more recent war never the less ,a battlefield walked on and returned to ( i was lucky to come home ) .Those men have erned there rest .

cossack

[Ozzie]

Cossack, not many of the members will have had your depth of understanding.

I appreciate your posting, and respect your opinion, as I respect others.

Lest We Forget.

Kim

[elle72]

This thread has actually been very interesting in highlighting how differently people view death, commemoration and even the afterlife....... for my part, my own great uncle is one of those who was denied the honour of any sort of a burial. He was a mother's child, an eldest child, and almost still a child when he was killed at Mouquet Farm at the age of 19. When I look at his photo here on the desk infront of me - such a gentle, serious face - I wish more than anything that he could have been found and given a decent burial. And I suppose its for that reason that I would hope for the best for those who have been found at Fromelles. So Victoria is right about that, when you don't even know what happened to your family or how they died or where they are, even finding the Pheasant Wood site is a relief of some sort for those families.

Elle

[ianw]

Elle - thanks for stating your point in such a straightforward manner. The view of the relatives has definitely helped shift my standpoint on this - though I appreciate that there are also relatives who want sleeping Diggers to be undisturbed. The fact would seem to be that if Australia decides to go full out to achieve identifications then the British must do the same. The thought of having second-class casualties is simply unacceptable.

[tripit]

Cossack, not many of the members will have had your depth of understanding.

I appreciate your posting, and respect your opinion, as I respect others.

Lest We Forget.

Kim

Hello again

I was trying to make apoint ,now adays there are no battlefield,s that have not been walked on by living persons ,dug up ,prodded poked.

I also respect the other members points of view .Victoria should not go with any preconceived thought,s of what she might see ,hear or feel , go with an open mind .

I would offer to go with her but would have to hold my hand or use baby strap on my wrist

Best time to go is in the evening just before sun set and stand still and walk slowly

along .

So best of luck when you go V.

PS dont try Iraq or Afganistan .

cossack

[PBI]

A Question for the Forensic Experts amongst us.If and when any Exhumations take place at Fromelles,how exactly will sets of remains be Positivley identified if they do not have any ID Discs on them or any Personal Effects ?,how could DNA testing be carried out if you dont know whose remains you are Testing ?,have any of the English Families of Men KIA at Fromelles and listed as missing expessed any interest in possible Identification of their Forbears.....Regards from a slightly Baffled PBI.

[truthergw]

I assume that interested parties have provided a DNA sample which has been mapped. Samples from the remains can be checked against these maps for a match. Like continuously looking up a dictionary for every word you read. I expect a lot of it will be computerised.

[PBI]

Hi Tom,so really it is going to take a Long time and a lot of effort ?..plus if some of the Family Lineage has died out there is no hope for IDing some of the Remains by DNA.I personally believe that any chances of IDing many of the Remains and actually providing 100% conclusive proof as to Identiity still remains very Minimal to say the least.ExactlyWhat criteria does the CWGC need before it decides to commemorate a Person with a named Headstone ?.

[stiletto_33853]

Russ,

Have I missed something in the reports that I have read??? all I seem to recall is that they are going to be reburied with a headstone.

Andy

[Seadog]

This is the paragraph from the original statement by the Australian authorities:

“Work is underway to confirm the names of those believed buried at the Pheasant Wood site, and the Australian and British Governments have agreed to equally share the costs of research, exhumation and reburial.”

In my view this can be read as an extension of the independent research carried out that has identified a list of names (Aust) from various sources including the original documents supplied by the Germans. This to be followed by exhumation and reburial in individual graves, the headstones of which would bear the inscription “Known unto God”. The list of names if accepted by the CWGC would then be inscribed on a memorial with the words “Believed to be buried in this cemetery”.

At present no mention at all of any proposed DNA matching has been made by the authorities and I believe that a further statement of intent should be made as soon as possible in order that the DNA situation is clarified.

The major problem as I see it is that there will be no names on the memorial in respect of the Brits, which in my view would constitute a major injustice to their memory. However, this situation has been caused by the authorities insistence that the remains are exhumed and given individual burials. I can foresee major problems being caused by this decision when the work commences.

Norman

[ianw]

If attempts at identification are to be made this surely infers the use of DNA based techniques to confirm anything found by conventional methods. According to a pal of mine who works in forensic science, DNA could be obtained from the long bones but more likely the teeth. He was optimistic about the chances of DNA recovery from the teeth - although he confirmed just how important local ground conditions would be.

Of course, any DNA recovered has to be compared to a known database of DNA from living relatives and it does concern me if we do not seek to identify British relatives to match the Australian DNA database which would seem to be potentially quite well developed - including DNA from some contributors to this Forum, I presume. Once, the list of likely British names is established, it would be relatively easy to track down living relatives.

I suspect the powers that be are playing their cards close to their chest at the moment due to potential controversy, criticism of the likely cost, the intrusion needed to recoover DNA etc. Perhaps the British authorities will plead that they are just supporting the Australians for whom Fromelles is obviously a special place. Also bear in mind that the eventual creation of shiny new cemetery on French soil will be politically controversial for some people.