Fromelles16: July 19th events

[Seadog]

I say again why is this forum even discussing possible DNA identification when there is no indication that this will be used. If someone has such an indication from the Australian or British authorities then please post the document here. Post number 533 states that, "Of the 179 missing, we have identified the names of 176 buried by the Germans", relating only to Australian soldiers, therefore one can assume that the balance of 221 (400 in total) are in fact British. All of this is of course pure speculation and until the site(s) are excavated no accurate figure for the remains can be known.

I have also read, correctly I hope that some 40% of current DNA samples could be provided in respect of the Australian dead. So that is a total of 70 only, leaving 60% or 106 of the Australians with no chance of DNA identification and 100% of the Brits. The more you think about this the less likely it would seem that the authorities will use DNA matching in an attempt to identify what will be a minority of the remains

Norman

[truthergw]

Hi Tom,so really it is going to take a Long time and a lot of effort ?..plus if some of the Family Lineage has died out there is no hope for IDing some of the Remains by DNA..................

From criminal cases reported in the papers, it seems to take about 3 weeks to analyse DNA. What that would translate into for hundreds of bodies which have been buried for 90 years, I do not know. I suspect that no one knows although I assume good estimates could be made by experts. If there is no known DNA available then no match will be made. Certain facts will be available. For instance, racial characteristics can be detected but exactly what these are, again I do not know.

I have to say, once more, that Fromelles is a special place for the men who fought and died there. In particular it was recognised long ago that it was particularly special for the Australian troops among them. This is why the Fromelles memorial was created with its marvellous " Cobbers" statue and VC Corner with its memorial and mass grave. Some people seem to be unaware that Fromelles has been remembered as an especially Australian tragedy since the time of the war. The location of the graves at Pheasant Wood and the decision to exhume the remains there, was not a discovery so much as an epilogue to a sad old tale.

[Ozzie]

Well said, Tom.

Kim

[Seadog]

I think that Fromelles is a pretty important place for the Brits as well, especially when you consider that the of the frequently quoted total figure of 400 remains, 176 are assumed to be Australian then the vast majority will be British. However as I have said before all of this will remain as speculation until such time that all of the remains are exhumed.

Norman

[stiletto_33853]

Not forgetting the men of the 1915 battle, the Australian memorial stands on exactly the ground that the 2nd RB made an advance in May 1915.

Andy

[Auimfo]

The major problem as I see it is that there will be no names on the memorial in respect of the Brits, which in my view would constitute a major injustice to their memory. However, this situation has been caused by the authorities insistence that the remains are exhumed and given individual burials. I can foresee major problems being caused by this decision when the work commences.

I'm not quite sure what you're driving at here Norman. Are you recommending that we leave these men where they lie and mark the site with a memorial but don't list the names of those believed to be buried there?

I too believe it would be a great shame if the British soldiers were unable to be named (although I still believe the records exist somewhere in the dusty archives of Geneva or Bavaria and are just waiting to be discovered by a team of dedicated researchers). However, would it not be an even greater injustice to deny recognition to those we know are buried there?

There are some comments here that seem to be calling it 'unfair' to the memory of those who might not be identified. I tend to think that is a negative attitude and believe that if we make every effort to identify all of them then we have done our best to honour their memory. Is it fair to those we can identify if we knowingly choose not to simply because we can't guarantee identification for all of them?

I am also unaware whether DNA sampling will be conducted but there is no reason why all the remains couldn't be mapped before re-interment and the results stored pending further research and investigation. Then, as we are able to locate the appropriate records and match descendants, we can alter the headstones from 'Known Unto God' to the correct identity of the soldier it contains. I'm not under any illusions that this will ever be achieved for all of them, but with the passage of time and dedicated research, I believe we will be able to identify quite a few (including British).

Cheers,

Tim L.

[ianw]

I say again why is this forum even discussing possible DNA identification when there is no indication that this will be used.

Norman - I think it is perfectly acceptable for this Forum to discuss DNA identification in this case as the technique has been previously used by the Australian authorities to aid the identification of casualties of the same age. We now have Jack Hunter's grave as a result. Of course, that is not to say that it will be used in this case. Obviously, this speculation irritates you but I think the exchange of ideas may well give food for thought to those that eventually have to make this important decision. If it becomes clear early in proceedings that no DNA is proving to be extractable from say the teeth of those buried at Fromelles, then the DNA ID efforts can be curtailed. But the DNA ID genie is out of the bottle whether you like it or not. Its use must be being considered.

Your analysis of the statistical information about the sampling seems rather questionable to me. The potential for giving a known burial to "only" 40% of the Australian casualties would see an end very much worthy of serious consideration. You suggest that the fact that 60% of the Australian casualties have no chance of identification may put an end to a DNA investigation. I don't share this position. In my view, statistically all the casualties have an equal chance of identification (albeit possibly rather thin) until the exercise is completed. Many existing CWGC cemeteries have a minority of identified graves and the challenge of creating a similar new cemetery at Pheasant Wood should be taken up.

Quite agree with Tim L's various points on this one. The British have a bit of work to do to get up to speed on this one but given that the casualty numbers are roughly equal, the MOD should be working on this now. The more information we gather, the better.

[PBI]

As i have previously said Andy,the Chances of Id will be pretty well ZERO in most Cases.If the Powers that be cannot ID Bodies from The American Civil War, WW2,Korea,Viet Nam,etc i really cannot see how there can be any chance of 100% of Identification of Remains from WW1 that have had Dog Tags and Personal Effects previousy removed no matter how well intentioned.Andy at Irish House Cemetery,Belgium is the Mass Grave of 33 PBI from the Gordon Highlanders who were KIA 14.12 1914 during an Abortive Attack on Whitesheet in Belgium.The Bodies were finally Buried in 1917 when the Area was secured by Irish Troops.The " 2 Officer Casualties " were Identified along with the Sgt Major and given seperate Burials..however the rest of the PBI were massed in One Grave,with One Headstone which commemorates their Regt,Date of Death..They are also commemorated by Name on the Menin Gate.The Missing Australians are Already commemorated at VC Corner,and the Brits on Loos,Thiepval,and Plugstreet Memorials.I personally feel that exhuming each Body and simply giving it a Headstone as a "Known unto God" or An "Australian?/British ? Soldier of the Great War" is not Neccessary,as relatives etc,will still be left with no Focal point for their Grief or personal pilgrimage.Best leave the Lads where they are and commemorate the Site in the Correct Manner.AS for the DNA side of thing,this was bandied about by the Media in the First Place and no doubt will continue to be Quoted by the Media.

[Guest geoff501]

As i have previously said Andy,the Chances of Id will be pretty well ZERO in most Cases.

Where do you get this information?

[Seadog]

See post no.497

Our research has located descendants for approximately 40% of the Australian soldiers but at no time have we even discussed DNA identification with those found - our position is that decisions of that nature are to be left to those in charge of the investigation.

We can of course talk and speculate forever on DNA matching etc, I however prefer hard evidence and facts that the authorities are intending to use such investigative techniques. So far this is completely lacking.

Norman

[ianw]

Surely Jack Hunter's grave is tangible proof that the chances of positive DNA ID are a lot better than zero?

[Auimfo]

PBI,

I'm still not sure on what scientific basis you apply your theory that chances of ID will be pretty much zero? The identification of three Australians in Belgium last year should make the possibilty quite clear.

I understand the point you make regarding the burials at Irish House cemetery, but again it appears to be approaching the issue from a negative standpoint. You seem to be lamenting the fact that those men (except two officers and a Sgt Major) were buried together without proper recognition. Why then would you wish the same for the men buried at Pheasant Wood when we have the opportunity to do it better. In my books, two wrongs don't make a right.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[PBI]

Its Called Common Sense and not wearing Rose Tinted Spectacles.Memorials such as Tyne Cot and Thiepval,etc,etc,etc, support the Fact that Iding Battlefield Remains is no easy task,hence MEMORIALS TO THE MISSING !!!!,i fail to see how Fromelles is any Different.Signing off from this Thread now as it has run its course and is going around in Circles.I await ALL Developments with Baited breath....

[ianw]

I however prefer hard evidence and facts that the authorities are intending to use such investigative techniques.

Norman

Norman - some authorities may well be trying to avoid the use of DNA techniques for various reasons. Its partially successful use for the Zonebeke Five would suggest that it should be used for the Fromelles Four Hundred but it's certainly not a given.

Isn't intelligent talk and speculation exactly what a Forum is for and what all our contributions (including yours Norman) enliven. It's part the debate and may inform the decision in a very small way.

[ianw]

MEMORIALS TO THE MISSING !!!!

- would be considerably smaller and less populated with names if DNA ID techniques had been available in the 20's and 30's!

[Auimfo]

We can of course talk and speculate forever on DNA matching etc, I however prefer hard evidence and facts that the authorities are intending to use such investigative techniques. So far this is completely lacking.

Norman,

I prefer to be proactive rather than reactive.

Its Called Common Sense and not wearing Rose Tinted Spectacles.Memorials such as Tyne Cot and Thiepval,etc,etc,etc, support the Fact that Iding Battlefield Remains is no easy task,hence MEMORIALS TO THE MISSING !!!!,i fail to see how Fromelles is any Different.Signing off from this Thread now as it has run its course and is going around in Circles.I await ALL Developments with Baited breath....

PBI,

It's only going around in circles as a result of you repeating the same questions because you didn't like the answers the first time around. Common sense should tell you that at the time Thiepval, Menin Gate, Tyne Cot and all the other memorials were constructed, DNA sampling wasn't even heard of. The topic may have run it's course for you if you think identification through colour patches and personal effects is the only way but the rest of us might be a little more up to date and wish to discuss current scientific possibilities.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[Seadog]

I am sure that we are all as it were "batting for the same side" here. But as PBI states this whole thread is going around and around in circles and getting nowhere. Surely it should be possible for one of our Australian friends to ascertain whether or not the authorities are going to use DNA matching or not, in particular those who are intimately connected with the Fromelles research and tracing of existing relatives should be able to obtain this information. As I have said in my opinion anything less than official clarification is and will remain pure speculation.

Norman

[Auimfo]

Norman,

Unfortunately, any information I might be privy to or could ascertain from those in a position of knowledge is obtained in total confidence and I intend to respect that privacy until any official public announcement is made.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[Seadog]

Secrets - I really love those. I am now eagerly anticipating an announcement from "those in the know". I am sure that we can all hardly wait for the result; I have however a suspicion of what it will be!

Norman

[ianw]

"Pure speculation" maybe but fascinating nonetheless. Can't agree that we are going round in circles. We are simply waiting for an important announcement relating to the potential active renewal of our commitment to Remembrance 90 years on.

[truthergw]

Speculation is the only thing we on the Forum can indulge in. What gives me cause for concern with respect to DNA ID is something which has been mentioned in cases of forensic use. IE ID for criminal cases. It appears that elaborate precautions have to be taken to prevent contamination by someone else's DNA. Just to handle an object can cast doubt on the ID. I am envisaging a mass grave where men's remains have been buried together for 90 years. I foresee difficulty in definite ID in this case.

[Chris_Baker]

Just as an aside, The New South Wales branch of the Royal United Service Institute is publishing an article of mine in the December edition of their journal. Subject: Battle of Fromelles.

[ianw]

Chris - that could be very timely! I am sure many of us would be interested in the general thrust of your article.

[Fedelmar]

There seem to be a lot of opinions being thrown around here but I have yet to see any member from the UK step up to the plate and state that they are going to assist Victoria in working out just who the UK soldiers might be!!!

Please ... instead of giving all the reasons why something can't be done try finding the reasons why it CAN be done ... the soldiers buried at Fromelles deserve our thanks not our personal opinions.

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[Mat McLachlan]

Hi all,

Just to throw my two cents in, I was asked to do a few radio interviews after the announcement was made that all the bodies would be exhumed. As part of my research, I spoke to the Minister's office about the press release, and their official position (at least so far as they were prepared to announce to the public) was that no decision had been made about DNA testing - this was simply the first stage in the long process of removing and reburying each soldier.

However, the fact that they are also asking people who think they might be related to the men to register, indicates that the possibility of DNA testing is very much on the table.

For the time being, the (official) line is that no decision has been made about using DNA.

Cheers,

Mat