Fromelles16: July 19th events

[elle72]

Tim, I agree with you completely. As I have mentioned previously, I don't think a 'mass grave' was what any of them really hoped would be their final resting place.

[Victoria Burbidge]

I still maintain that they are not all resting in peace.

Whilst this thread has seen one of the most stimulating and well argued debates on the GWF, it has also seen the emergence of some particularly erroneous and misleading statements and, dare one say it, flights of fancy. However, if there is one statement destined to arouse my wrath, then this is it.

I’ve had this conversation with Lambis and I will say here what I have already said to him. Stating that these men are “not resting in peace” is not military, archaeological or historical fact. It is not fact at all. Show me the evidence and I will be the first to agree with you.

I am a committed and practising Christian. For me these men were at peace from the moment that the last breath escaped their bodies and their souls went to another place. During their lifetime, these men, along with all other casualties, experienced horrors and agonies which we cannot even begin to imagine. Why ascribe yet more suffering to them in death?

It isn’t the dead who are not at rest – it’s the living. This is not a religious forum, so please, please, please, let’s leave the religious issues out of this thread and stick to the facts.

V.

[velo350]

Whilst this thread has seen one of the most stimulating and well argued debates on the GWF, it has also seen the emergence of some particularly erroneous and misleading statements and, dare one say it, flights of fancy. However, if there is one statement destined to arouse my wrath, then this is it.

I've had this conversation with Lambis and I will say here what I have already said to him. Stating that these men are "not resting in peace" is not military, archaeological or historical fact. It is not fact at all. Show me the evidence and I will be the first to agree with you.

I am a committed and practising Christian. For me these men were at peace from the moment that the last breath escaped their bodies and their souls went to another place. During their lifetime, these men, along with all other casualties, experienced horrors and agonies which we cannot even begin to imagine. Why ascribe yet more suffering to them in death?

It isn't the dead who are not at rest – it's the living. This is not a religious forum, so please, please, please, let's leave the religious issues out of this thread and stick to the facts.

V.

Well said Victoria.

[elle72]

Victoria, everyone on this forum should be entitled to their own opinion and 'emotional' response to what has happened at Fromelles.......otherwise I could ask you to show me the evidence that their souls went to another place, as you believe.....

when it comes death and what happens afterwards - there simply are no FACTS. No matter what religion you are.

Elle.

[PBI]

I spoke the Information Dept of the CWGC this Morning and they have confirmed that a Cemetery will be constructed at Fromelles,but as to the Type and Style of Commemoration,it is still early days (Their Words,not Mine).

[Steven Broomfield]

Tim, I agree with you completely. As I have mentioned previously, I don't think a 'mass grave' was what any of them really hoped would be their final resting place.

I don't suppose many of them hoped their last resting place would be a field in France, one way or another. Maybe a mass grave with their mates would have been just what they did want. I don't know, you don't know, so any decisions made now are made with the full benefit of 21st century hindsight.

The boast of heraldry, the pomp of power,

And all that beauty, all that wealth e'er gave,

Awaits alike th'inevitable hour,

The paths of glory lead but to the grave.

[Auimfo]

That's correct Steven - I agree totally. Your theory applies to whether they are left insitu or re-interred. But one way or the other any result will. by default, be representing what we think they would have wanted. It's up to us to make an honest effort of getting it right and doing it with respect.

Victoria,

I disagree with you on that. If people are entitled to say that these men are 'resting in peace' then others are just as entitled to say that they are not. Neither comment is quantifiable nor able to be validated and are simply based on personal belief. The fact that my belief differs to yours doesn't make either of us right or wrong.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[truthergw]

I share a theory with others, that some of the cemetry internments were into a trench. Every man got a stone, with his details as far as known but I am not convinced that every grave was separate. The obvious instances of this are where a group of stones stand against each other. Would this be classed as a mass grave? We are all aware of the grave where the men were laid to rest, each with his arm over his comrade. They died together and were laid to rest in a manner which emphasised that fact. Do we think that this mass grave is somehow less dignified than being buried in separate graves?

[PBI]

Zivvy Crater is a Good Example of a Mass Burial.

[elle72]

Steven, I get your point - obviously all of them went to war, hoping they would come back.....I often think of the men who left the port of Fremantle here in WA and took one last look at the coast line as they sailed away......what were they thinking? did they wonder if they would see this land again? did they wonder how or if they might die? did they think they were invincible because they were young and strong?

I don't believe that any of them on leaving here could have entertained the idea that their fate might be to lie out in No Mans Land, unrecoverable, their bones bleached white - or to lie lost in a pit with the remnants of their companies for 90 years.

For me, the most awful aspect of the great war is that so many men just disappeared into the ether.....blown up, buried, lost - the idea that a human being can die unnoticed and there be nothing left, that thousands and thousands can just melt into the mud and never be seen again is truly incomprehensible to me.

Being a mum to four boys, I find it hard to separate the emotion of what I would want for my own sons from the fate of what happened to these sons and brothers and fathers. Still whatever happens, they aren't 'lost' anymore and that is at least one consolation in the whole tragic story of what happened at Fromelles.

Elle

[PBI]

[Victoria Burbidge]

Thank you Russell. That image has haunted me ever since you first e-mailed it to me.

V.

[elle72]

Im almost afraid to ask but do we know who they are - and what happened to them?

[PBI]

Sorry Elle i dont know who they are,they are Underage German Lads.Not that much Younger than some of the Brits and Aussie Lads that gave their all at Fromelles.

[Arthur J]

Confirmation from CWGC that a new cemetery will be built.

http://www.cwgc.org/news.asp?newsid=91&view=yes

[PBI]

They Said the Same thing when i spoke to them this Morning,see my Posting..

[Victoria Burbidge]

Victoria, everyone on this forum should be entitled to their own opinion and 'emotional' response to what has happened at Fromelles.......otherwise I could ask you to show me the evidence that their souls went to another place, as you believe.....

when it comes death and what happens afterwards - there simply are no FACTS. No matter what religion you are.

Elle, thank you. You have perfectly illustrated the point which I was trying to make, that the Forum is no place for religious discussion - and here we are, discussing it once again. We all have our own beliefs and some feel these things more strongly than others.

At no point have I said that Forum members are not entitled to their opinion. My husband and I spent all day yesterday and most of today trying to collate a list of the British missing from Fromelles (1916). I should be doing that now rather than (in my view) wasting time defending my statement that the Great War Forum is not the place for religious discussion.

You are quite right; when it comes to subject of death, there are no facts. None. It is all a matter of personal belief, but I cannot bear being told that my grandfather’s brother was killed at Fromelles and is not resting in peace and I’m sure that there are plenty of other Forum members who feel exactly the same way about this subject. In fact, I know there are because they have told me so.

If an emotional response is required, then I will invite any Forum member to walk the battlefield with me, kneel in the mud with me and cradle the shattered bones of a man who was denied the honour of any sort of a burial. A mother’s child. Believe me, when you have experienced that, the men at Pheasant Wood begin to look as if they fared slightly better with regard to a burial.

V.

[elle72]

Victoria, we agree on this one thing then if you see my post #560

Cheers,

Elle

[Victoria Burbidge]

Victoria,

I disagree with you on that. If people are entitled to say that these men are 'resting in peace' then others are just as entitled to say that they are not. Neither comment is quantifiable nor able to be validated and are simply based on personal belief. The fact that my belief differs to yours doesn't make either of us right or wrong.

Tim, neither of us is right or wrong. The point I was making, as stated above, is that these are religious beliefs and that this is not a religious forum. I don’t wish to have to state again my religious beliefs. This is not the place for them. Religion is far, far too emotive and sensitive a subject to be used here, particularly when used as an argument for the exhumation of men.

A member of the Forum sent me through this link to General Mike O’Brien’s talk in Melbourne. If anyone else has anything related to Pheasant Wood which they think may be of interest to me, they should feel free to post it within this thread.

Audio Link Fromelles

V.

[Fedelmar]

I pause to consider the young German soldiers who may have had the task to bury those Australian and British soldiers.

For the Australian's believed buried in these pits I can tell you the youngest is 15 if not, 16 and the oldest is 48. Their religions are Anglican, Catholic, Methodist, Presbyterian and Jewish. They come from all walks of life, one lad is the son of a Methodist Minister who went to his grave still believing his son was alive and the mother the same. Others state that the son is not at peace because he is out there somewhere. I have read hundreds of gut wrenching letters from mothers and fathers wanting to know where their boy lay and took great comfort in receiving the personal effects of the son. There are others who have two if not three sons killed in action with no known graves. It is very hard to read these letters and not feel the families pain so deeply that it leaves one in emotional distress. It is very hard to remain objective.

Victoria, I do hope other UK members of the GWF step up to the plate and assist you in the research of your boys. Whilst I cannot assist you to the larger extent I am more that happy to bounce ideas around with you based on what I have learnt from the Australian records and my expertise in research and evaluation so please don't hesitate to contact me

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[Auimfo]

Tim, neither of us is right or wrong. The point I was making, as stated above, is that these are religious beliefs and that this is not a religious forum.

I agree Victoria, but why single out my belief as at this late juncture as being misleading and destined to arouse your wrath yet allow comments akin to your belief pass without comment from very early in the piece? If you don't want beliefs with 'religeous' connotations mentioned here then I would have expected you to say so from the beginning - even if those beliefs agreed with your own.

From the course of the posts in this thread, it would appear that while everyone was saying that these men are resting in peace, you were content because they agreed with your thoughts but as soon as I disagreed, I'm accused of bringing religeon into the debate???? Be fair!!

On a totally different note - I'd be most interested to see where the research to uncover the names of the British has taken you so far. I believe there was a total list of the British names of those KIA in Robin Corfield's book 'Don't Forget Me Cobber' if this is of assistance. I don't have a copy unfortunately and they are very difficult to find but I'm sure someone here will have one and might be able to confirm this.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[Fedelmar]

Tim ... Andrew posted the details of Corfield's book yesterday ... I am sure he would oblige Victoria and send her a copy of the names.

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[dekenai]

I got to France in the early-mid 90's a couple of times for some 'personal' research. I was able to take photo's and details back to elderly relations that told me ( before they eventually passed away), that is was good to finally know where and what happened to Jim and Dave.

So my point is simply if we can ascertain who these soldiers are in the mass grave,

regardless of nationality, when they are exhumed, it may well bring someone somewhere a bit of relief. Give those soldiers a brief life again afters years of anonymity in a mass grave.

IMO, religion gives no comfort to the dead.

cheerio

dekenai

[1st AIF]

Whilst this thread has seen one of the most stimulating and well argued debates on the GWF, it has also seen the emergence of some particularly erroneous and misleading statements and, dare one say it, flights of fancy.

V.

I think that this has been a great thread and it brought out a lot of different peoples opinions. I have seen no evidence of flights of fancy. I was criticised for posting a picture of WW1 dead men thrown in a pit, (which may have been in the vicinity of the Fromelles battle) as not being appropriate for a WW1 forum with a thread on Fromelles!!

We should all respect each others opinions and mutter in our beers rather than publicly carry on. Lambis himself was often criticised for his "flights of fancy", as you put it, but luckily he persevered and has made a great contribution to Australia.

Len

[1st AIF]

Hi all,

I have done a little research for our Brit counterparts, thanks to CEW Bean and Robin Corfield. According to Bean the only Brits that occupied the German Line were the 2/7 Warwickshires and maybe a handful of of the 2/1 Bucks. Corfield lists the British Dead and includes the cemeteries. A lot are commemorated at the Loos Memeorial which means they have no known grave. On a cursory count (needs checking) the Loos list is as follows:

2/6 Warwicks 77

2/7 Warwicks 72

2/4 Gloucesters 21

2/6 Gloucesters 43

2/1 Bucks 86

Total : 299

My flight of fancy theory is that there may be more Australians in the pits at Pheasant Wood than we realise. There are 175 named Australians in the pits and >140 others who everyone is assuming to be Brits. It seems incredulous that 47% of the British missing are in the pits whereas only 175/1306 or 13% of the Australian missing are in the pits. Given that only one British battalion , the 2/7 Warwicks entered the German line the numbers are a bit shaky. Can anyone offer a reason why the figures are so different? Did the Germans bring in the British dead from no mans land?

Anyway the next posts are of the British casualties.

Len