Fromelles16: July 19th events

[MelPack]

[quote name='Fedelmar' date='Aug 28 2008, 11:33 AM' post='993253'

why wouldn't records exist in Germany?

Sandra

Bomber Harris springs to mind.

I am not being remotely critical of your endeavours. In fact, I admire the dedication and commitment of all concerned and wish you all the very best for a successful outcome.

Regards

Mel

[Fedelmar]

Mel ... as I said ... I am not up to speed on war history ... I was asking because I just plain don't know

I didn't take you comments as critical by any means and thank you for your wishes.

It has been a long hard road sometimes 12 - 14 hours a day ... I don't envy Victoria working on her own on almost double the number we have. I wish her every success in her search for the boys.

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[Auimfo]

Mel,

The records (or part thereof) do still exist in Germany. Although many WW1 German records were destroyed during the bombings of Berlin during WW2, the troops opposing the Allies at Fromelles were Bavarian and their records (or copies of them) were also retained at the archives in Bavaria. I have it on good authority that these were untouched during WW2 and are still intact.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[ianw]

Well done to all who are undertaking this research work - I won't call you "amateurs" because the word is inaccurate to describe very smart , well motivated people working on a task they relish. I just know that information is being turned up which will greatly assist the process of honouring and remembering the Fallen of Fromelles. If the Forum could issue an MID or an MSM, I would recommend you all for one!

[Greyhound]

I won't call you "amateurs" because the word is inaccurate

Not at all! In its purest sense, an amateur means someone working for love, not money. I think that describes Sandra, Tim, Victoria et al perfectly.

[Victoria Burbidge]

it may well be that his identification and possessions were removed in foraging sortes into no mans land for intelligence gathering purposes in the aftermath of the battle i.e. unit identification.

Mel, you’ve flagged up some interesting points. You are quite right. It was an assumption on my part that the recovery of an identity disc would equate to the man having been buried by the Germans and there is nothing to prove that happened in this case. I have seen no documentation which refers to them retrieving identity tags, pay books etc. from the dead whilst leaving the bodies themselves in situ, but that does not prove that it didn’t happen.

With regard to the retrieval of dead of No Man’s Land, I can confirm that this was undertaken by the Germans with the intention of clearing those (rapidly decomposing) bodies from that area of No Man’s Land nearest to their own line. There may also be indications that they worked across a wider area, but this is, as yet, unclear. So the jury is still out on whether or not Capt. Coulton’s body was retrieved by the Germans or merely his identity tag. Again, only an official burial list will provide the answers.

Thank you for supplying the information from the other thread. I hadn’t seen it. My main concern at the moment is to put together an accurate list of the missing men and then I’ll begin researching them individually. It’s a nice piece and I’m quite excited to see the mention of a daughter.

Our list currently stands at 319 missing, with another two waiting in the wings whilst their respective dates of death are being corroborated by the CWGC. I’ve also been looking at the four digit / six digit scenario. My next task will be to break down these figures and see if there is a pattern in there somewhere, i.e. how many of the men who retained their four digit numbers are also listed as missing.

I suspect that the majority of the British men at Pheasant Wood will be from the 2/7 Royal Warwicks. They captured both the German front line trench and the second line and the majority of them would have been killed somewhere between the two during the German counter-attack. Men from the 2/1 Ox and Bucks were seen on the German breastwork and did not return again to the British line. The men of the 2/6 Royal Warwicks were mown down in No-Man’s-Land, but this does not mean that they did not reach the German breastwork, just that we currently have no evidence to prove that they did.

V.

[Victoria Burbidge]

Not at all! In its purest sense, an amateur means someone working for love, not money. I think that describes Sandra, Tim, Victoria et al perfectly.

What??? You mean we're not being paid?

If the Forum could issue an MID or an MSM, I would recommend you all for one!

An MiD would be nice, but from a personal point of view, I’m just grateful that my husband has ceased to refer to me as “The Catering Corp".

V.

[Fedelmar]

Thank you for your compliments ... greatly appreciated. I consider this work to be my personal thank you to the boys. A way of honouring them individually.

Keep up the good work Victoria ... you never know ... sooner or later someone will knock on your door and ask if you need a hand!!!

Come to think of it ... Sherlock just told me to put everything else on hold

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[Auimfo]

Sandra,

What are you doing wasting time yabbering on chat sites......get back to work!

Cheers,

The Boss.

P.S. Thanks everyone for your encouraging and kind words. Seeing these men found and hopefully identified is reward enough but knowing others appreciate your efforts is a wonderful bonus.

[ianw]

I think that Fromelles is by far the most exciting focus of attention that we currently have on the Western Front. What comes from it will raise the profile of the Great War hugely as we lead up to 2014.

[Fedelmar]

It most certainly will Ian ... no doubt it will take a number of years to complete the process. What a fitting way to enter into the 100 year anniversary.

I still have my Albany boys book to complete for the 100 year anniversary!

Bright Blessings

Sandra

PS: I ignored Tim! I do all the work and he does all the 'schmoozing'!!!

[stanhort]

Hi everyone

I am new to the forum and will be visiting Gallipoli and Western Front for the first time in Oct/November this year.

The first tour commences Istanbul 13th Oct and spends about 12 days on the peninsular and associated areas. The second tour starts in London about the 29th Oct and finishes in Paris about 14th Nov.

Have spent the last year reading all the books I can find on both theatres and can't wait to get over there.

I had a grandfather who I think was a Captain in Mesopotamia at some time during the war and he passed away about 1996 aged 94 - a grand old English gentleman.

I look forward to participating in the forum before I leave on the 30th Sept and on my return

Regards

Nick in Brisbane OZ

[paul swann]

Welcome to the forum Nick

[stanhort]

Welcome to the forum Nick

Thanks Paul

I am a new comer to participating in this type of forum and would welcome a chat with anyone who can give me some pointers about participating fully.

Skype address is nick.powell2 if anyone has the time to assist.

Many thanks to all.

Nick

[Fedelmar]

A news report here this morning stated that the Fromelles boys will be given individual burials in a new cemetery. The cost will be 10 million dollars with the cost shared equally between Australia and Britain. No decision on DNA testing has been made as yet.

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[Fedelmar]

From the West Australian Newspapers website. I missed the announcement from the Minister and Dept of Defence due to their email server upgrade.

___________________________________________________________________________

New WWI diggers cemetery to be announced

30th September 2008, 7:44 WST

Details about a new cemetery for 400 Australian and British World War I soldiers found in a mass grave in France are set to be unveiled later this week.

Defence Science and Personnel Minister Warren Snowdon and British Veterans Minister Derek Twigg are expected to reveal where the cemetery will be built after they meet in London on Wednesday.

Both governments announced last month that the soldiers found in eight large pit graves on the outskirts of Fromelles during an exploratory excavation in May would be individually reburied with full military honours.

After visiting the site Monday, Snowdon said a new cemetery would be built nearby so the 170 Australians and 300 British troops who were originally buried by German soldiers after the Battle of Fromelles in July 1916 could be reinterred.

However, he declined to reveal the cemetery's location, saying an announcement would be made after his talks with Twigg.

The Commonwealth War Graves Commission has been involved in choosing a site for the cemetery, which will cover about 3,500 square metres.

"We are waiting for the minister (Snowdon) to meet the minister (Twigg) in London on Wednesday and after that I think we'll know exactly where it's going to be," Commonwealth War Graves Commission horticulture manager David Richardson, who has been consulted over possible locations, told AAP.

"It will be a site constructed in the tradition of the all the other war cemeteries in northern France.

"That's one of the tenets of the organisation, that everybody's commemorated in the same way."

The soldiers currently lay in a grassy field on the edge of Pheasant Wood, which is on the outskirts of the small village of Fromelles.

While the site is big enough to house a cemetery, it has been judged unsuitable due to its muddy terrain, the existence of a nearby fuel pipeline and overhead electric cables.

The owner of the land, Madame Marie-Paule de Massiet, has donated the site so it can be used to commemorate the soldiers.

A memorial is expected to be built there once the remains are removed and reinterred at the new cemetery.

The mammoth task, which is expected to cost up to $10 million, is expected to begin in May or June next year and take about six months to complete.

But while details about the cemetery's location are imminent, Australian and British officials have yet to decide whether to pay for the soldiers' remains to undergo DNA tests to help identify each one.

Most had their identification tags removed by the Germans when they were buried, but some pieces of their uniforms including distinctive buttons and buckles were found by archaeologists during the excavation project in May.

The archaeologist who led the dig, Dr Tony Pollard, said identifying the remains would be difficult, but not impossible.

"You're looking at skeletal remains, so the bones are loose," he said.

"That is one of the obviously important considerations and that is why the team (selected to exhume the bodies) would require extremely experienced forensic archaeologists and anthropologists.

"When we were doing the (initial excavation) work (in May), even though we weren't removing any remains, one of the things we were very aware of was how readily can we tease out individuals.

"It can be done, but it needs to be done with great care."

AAP

[ianw]

I must say that I am pleased to hear this news - although it will be sad if the lads are moved too far from their present location. Given the recent success of DNA testing in securing positive IDs, I would hope that such techniques are at least tried experimentally here to test viability on these particular remains.

I very much look forward to visiting this new cemetery which will tangibly demonstrate our commitment to Remembrance

90 years on. We will remember them.

(It's ironic that their place of rest for over 90 years is now deemed unsuitable as a cemetery and I wonder what the land cost of the selected site will be. Perhaps someone can be persuaded to donate the new site).

[Fedelmar]

Interesting point Ian ... perhaps it is something to do with the actual cemetery as opposed to the bodies.

"While the site is big enough to house a cemetery, it has been judged unsuitable due to its muddy terrain, the existence of a nearby fuel pipeline and overhead electric cables."

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[Auimfo]

Ian,

As Sandra said, I've also heard that the site becomes very boggy in the wet and is therefore not suitable. Originally, this land was donated by the owner but unfortunately it can't really be used for this purpose. I do believe that when the exhumations are completed the land will be restored and a permanent memorial placed to mark the spot.

I haven't yet been made aware of the new site but am lead to believe it's only a very short distance away (the announcement should be made in the next couple of days).

Cheers,

Tim L.

[ianw]

Sandra/Tim - Yes, I appreciate that the existing site may not be suitable for a large formal cemetery and as they will be being disinterred, it's not too relevant if they are then moved a modest distance.

Nice that the existing site will be the place of a memorial in any case - it will probably be as visited as the cemetery.

I suppose "To ID or not to ID?" is now the remaining big question.

[Fedelmar]

THE HON. WARREN SNOWDON MP

Minister for Defence Science and Personnel

Tuesday, 30 September 2008

137/2008

MINISTERS DISCUSS FROMELLES: RECOVERY OF SOLDIERS

Minister for Defence Science and Personnel, the Hon Warren Snowdon MP, today met with his French counterpart, Secretary of State attached to Minister of Defence and Veterans’ Affairs, Monsieur Jean- Marie Bockel, to discuss the recovery and re-interment of up to 400 Australian and British soldiers at Fromelles, France.

The work at Pheasant Wood requires joint agreement between Australia, Britain and France for the exhumation.

“Currently, all three countries are negotiating a suitable agreement on the timeframe and process for the recovery and re-interment of these Commonwealth soldiers,” Minister Snowdon said.

“Monsieur Bockel and I discussed a number of aspects today, including the exhumation of the remains and the work of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission in the selection of land for the new Commonwealth War Cemetery.”

French Government support was crucial for the limited excavation at the site earlier this year, which determined beyond doubt that the soldiers’ remains had laid in-situ for over 90 years.

“We are grateful for the support already provided by the French authorities and welcome their involvement in the next phase of this sensitive project,” Minister Snowdon said.

“This is a large project with a number of complicating factors, including the high water table in the Fromelles region.

“The Commonwealth War Graves Commission is considering the implication of this, along with other concerns, in their selection of a site to construct the first War Cemetery of its kind in more than 50 years.”

Images from the meeting will be available via the Defence website after 8am Wednesday 1 October 2008: www.defence.gov.au/media

Media contacts:

Kate Sieper (Warren Snowdon): 02 6277 7620 or 0488 484 689

Defence Media Liaison: 02 6265 3343 or 0408 498 664

www.defence.gov.au

[ianw]

Still no reference to the ID question in the above statement.

Has anyone with any inside info, heard what may be happening. Go on, be indiscreet!

[Seadog]

Not being rude but that press release sounds like a load of "Waffle", it will be good to see if anything constructive in relation to indentification of the fallen is agreed

Norman

[Fedelmar]

Not me Ian ... have heard nothing ... but then my area on this is just the family history to trace the descendants.

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[ianw]

I get the impression that Australia still has "ownership" of the Fromelles situation despite the relative numbers of casualties. The Australian Govt press releases seem to be much more detailed than those from Britain. This might suggest that the likelihood of a move towards ID attempts would be higher than if the notoriously parsimonious British MOD were running things.

Ooh you are a tease, Sandra!