Fromelles16: July 19th events

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

IanW,

I think you might do to heed a bit of caution regarding the DNA issue. Ian A raises the cost issue. As mentioned, in the scheme of government expenditure a trifle but for that trifle, whose pathology on the health service will be cut out. It is not a case of allocating new money but reshuffling the pool of cash that exists. There is one ethical question here of servicing the dead or the living. When we say a trifle expense, we still have to go to the waiting lists for pathology services and cross off the names of those people who should have their pathology examinations deferred in order to free up laboratory resources for this exercise. Before calling a figure trifling, visit the out patient centre of your local hospital and tell the next 500 public people who walk through the door that their pathology examinations for this year have been cancelled so that the bones at Fromelles can be DNA tested. That is the real nuts and bolts of a trifle.

But that is only a small problem in a fraught situation. Give another ethical consideration. A DNA sample is given by a relative and it is held on the data base. In doing so, a rare genetic disorder is detected that can have an influence upon the family's morbidity rate. The majority of people suffering from the disorder tend to die in their 50's or 60's - everyone put it down to the booze, fags and fights at the pub. But the fellow giving the DNA is in his late 80's so while carrying the gene, it has not impacted upon him. However, his 21 year old grand child is applying for a superannuation policy with a death benefit attached to it. The grand child is required to declare any hereditary medical complications. Since the DNA is on a relatives database, the grand child doesn't know about the problem and so makes a declaration accordingly. Ten years later, three children and a crushing mortgage late, the grand child is involved in a motor vehicle accident and is killed. The insurance company finds the data on the Fromelles database, indicates that the person did not make a true and full disclosure on the insurance application and medical and thus voids the policy leaving the spouse and children bereft. Can't happen? It has and it does. Regularly.

The ethics of DNA testing have not been tested in any national debate. It looks easy but there are many unintended ramifications that are only now emerging and they do not look promising or healthy for community direction. Basically, the case I have illustrated occurred in similar lines in the US and the result has been that the particular family members cannot get health care as the HMO's will not take them on as clients. It disenfranchised several families, through no fault of their own nor even undertaking any DNA testing from health care cover.

DNA testing is of itself a good thing but until the parameters of misuse and potential of DNA within the society has been understood, it is not something that I can sit back and watch with any ease. Indeed the whole topic fills me with unease in every sense of the word.

The potential for misuse is usually unimaginable unless you have lived through the unimaginable. For example, in 1916, Dutch identify cards carried the religion of the holder so that in case of illness or accident, a religious figure of the correct religious persuasion could attend the individual. A wonderful sentiment and a good intention. No one foresaw that this wonderful innovation would sign the death warrants of 100,000 Jews and make them easy to round up and deport in 1940. Until we have this conversation dealing with the black heart of humanity, the best intentions are not good enough nor are they compelling reasons for undertaking mass testing with another lot of data about individuals upon another unregulated database.

Cheers

Bill

[Guest geoff501]

Before calling a figure trifling, visit the out patient centre of your local hospital and tell the next 500 public people who walk through the door that their pathology examinations for this year have been cancelled so that the bones at Fromelles can be DNA tested. That is the real nuts and bolts of a trifle.

Forensic DNA testing in the UK is done by Government forensic agencies and private labs. Don't think the health budget would be involved. Surley the cost would be met by the MOD - which in itself may be a problem in the UK, but perhaps not for Australia?

A DNA sample is given by a relative and it is held on the data base. In doing so, a rare genetic disorder is detected that can have an influence upon the family's morbidity rate.

I doubt that the information would be 'held on a database'. I doubt that this kind of genetic information would be revealed by the tests that might be done to identify relatives.

[ianw]

Bill - I fully share your unease about the possible mis-use of DNA information. No doubt the Fromelles relatives will want to satisfy themselves about how any samples are used , whether they are subsequently destroyed etc.

Certainly in the UK , our Govt has a massive DNA capability and I do feel that the additional costs of testing the Fromelles casualties will be trifling and the money well spent - but that is just my opinion.

[Victoria Burbidge]

Well, they say that it’s quality not quantity that counts and I think that they could be right.

Having worked our way through thirteen sets of officers papers, we have the names of two – yes, two – British officers who were killed at Fromelles on 19th July 1916 and who were buried by the Germans.

From their respective papers:

Capt. G.B. Donaldson – 2/7 Royal Warwickshire Regt.

1. “Died in German Hands, 19th July 1916” [C.970 – 30.9.16]

2. “The Secretary of the War Office presents his compliments to Mrs. Donaldson and begs to inform her that the Identity Disc of the late Captain G.B. Donaldson, 7th Battalion, Royal Warwickshire Regiment, has been returned to this Department by the German Government.

   The Disc is being forwarded to Mrs. Donaldson under separate registered cover.”

3. “The Secretary of the War Office presents his compliments to Mrs. Donaldson and begs to inform her that one purse containing 1.50 francs belonging to the late Captain G.B. Donaldson, 7th Battalion, Royal Warwickshire Regiment, has now been returned to this country by the German Government through a neutral Embassy.

   The purse and contents are accordingly being forwarded to Mrs. Donldson under separate registered cover.” [dated 22nd June 1917]

Capt. A.E. Coulton – 6th Bn. Norfolk Regt., attached 2/6 Royal Warwickshire Regt.

1. “Identity Disc returned from Germany” [dated 21st February 1917]

2. “... to the fact that Captain Coulton’s name appears in an official list of British dead (whose Pay Books or Identity Discs were handed to the German authorities) which was forwarded by the Comite International de la Croix Rouge at Geneva to His Majesty’s Minister at Berne.” [dated 21st October 1919]

So we now have undeniable proof that a list of the British dead was forwarded to the British Government, that personal effects were returned to the next-of-kin and that men from both the 2/6 and 2/7 Royal Warwicks were buried by the Germans, probably at Pheasant Wood.

Our list of British missing now stands at 315. We are now working our way through the war diaries of all the units involved and the Divisional accounts. It’s taking a while, but it’s a case of double and triple-checking everything. So far I have been able to find the service record for only one of the ORs and that contained no reference to a burial by the Germans or any reference to the Red Cross. It simply stated that he was missing, believed KIA 19th July 1916.

And now I’m going to drift back to the Olympics coverage for another look at that wonderful medal table.

V.

[Fedelmar]

WELL DONE VICTORIA!!!!

Congratulations

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[Auimfo]

Excellent work Victoria.

You've confirmed what we suspected. There were lists of the British buried by the Germans after Fromelles and they were similarly forwarded through the Red Cross in Geneva.

Now, it's just a matter of searching those archives (and the Bavarian records) to locate those lists.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[Guest geoff501]

...purse containing 1.50 francs belonging to the late Captain G.B. Donaldson, 7th Battalion, Royal Warwickshire Regiment, has now been returned to this country by the German Government through a neutral Embassy....

Any possibility that the neutral Embassy (presumably Swiss) have any records of these transfers?

This seems to be a different route than the lists passed from The Red Cross to HM's Minister at Berne.

[irishmen1916]

Great work Victoria.

peter

[Fedelmar]

The Melbourne Shrine of Rememberance have kindly agreed to my request to put back on their website Major General Mike O'Brien's lecture concerning the recent excavation at Pheasant Wood. The link to it is below and extremely interesting and well worth the effort of listening to it

http://www.shrine.org.au/content.asp?Document_ID=1929

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[Victoria Burbidge]

Peter,

Thank you for you kind words.

V.

[Victoria Burbidge]

Any possibility that the neutral Embassy (presumably Swiss) have any records of these transfers?

This seems to be a different route than the lists passed from The Red Cross to HM's Minister at Berne.

Geoff,

The phrase “neutral embassy” might imply the embassy of a neutral country in London. However, I very much suspect that it referred to our own embassy in Switzerland, but that the wording in the original document was misleading. I certainly didn’t get the impression from the paperwork that things had been taken along a different route, but I'd be interested to know if our Australian colleagues have found any differences in the way that the personal effects etc. were returned to the next-of-kin.

V.

[Fedelmar]

Only one that I have seen Victoria and that came Via an American Embassy from memory ... I know it struck me as odd (meaning it was different from the others).

Keep up the good work Victoria.

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[Victoria Burbidge]

How very odd. I would have expected the paper trail to have followed the same route each time. I wonder why they chose to send the information via the American Embassy.

Unfortunately, there was nothing else on this officer’s file to give any clue as to which embassy they were referring. Whichever way, the answers must lay in Geneva …….

V.

[Fedelmar]

Keep up the good work Victoria ... sooner or later others will take up the cause with you

Forgot to tell you ... even the boys that were from the UK who had no family here we have had some success with to trace their families. This particular aspect worried me a little but all is not lost

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[tripit]

Morning all.

The men who gave there live,s in the fromelles war 90 years ago are they just numbers to us now i know there names, are not all known to the investigator,s as yet

i know they have army numbers and they most certainly have names un known to all

so can we pay those men the respect they derserve please .

The D.N.A testing not to be argued over to be done as i s deserved for these men

dont just quote them as numbers .

i feel very strongly about this i know how other s ie. friends relatives comrade,s .

I have written a dirty stinking letter to my local MP informing about thers men and

fromelles .

SO please do not just quote these men just as a number

If you dont hear from me faily soon you will know the i am in the Tower .

cossack

[Fedelmar]

Cossack ... not all are just numbers

The Australian soldiers have names, faces and family histories

www.fromelles.net

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[Victoria Burbidge]

SO please do not just quote these men just as a number

Cossack,

I understand completely what you are saying and your feelings on the subject. At the moment these men must remain as a number. I have all of their names, but some of the men on my original list did not fall at Fromelles and there are possibly others who are not on the list and should be. Please bear with me until such time as I can say for certain that the list is one hundred per cent accurate and then I will be able to post the names of all these wonderful men – possibly with a photo or two!

I know it may seem that we have “dehumanised” them by not naming then. These men have been anonymous for more than ninety-two years. I want to get this right first time around and I’m sure that they wouldn’t mind waiting just a little longer. Good on you for contacting your MP, by the way. Hope that you’re reading this at home and not from a prison cell somewhere!

V.

[Ozzie]

Can't send you to the tower Cossack, need someone to stir the Brits into naming the men!

The start of research may need to be clinical, but I am sure that the results from the research will be personal.

Give your MP heaps, mate, get him fired up. He may be able to help with the Geneva end.

Cheers

Kim

[tripit]

hi all not in tower yet but gettinclose.

I get very frustraed that i cannot do more to help in this matter .

I know what it is like to be called a number !!!!!!! when you cannot do any thing to help your self, this moment when written this the house of comms. will be getting an open letter ( not mention any one here) hope it will do some good i will make sure i will be heard may get reply ( or another term in tower) , but here go`s

Not getting at anyone here you are doing a great job ( roll on bomb fire night)

have found two more MP,s to pester the more the merrier

cossack ( they will no be forgotten)

[Guest geoff501]

have found two more MP,s to pester the more the merrier

cossak,

It is no use writing to other than your own MP. He or she is there to represent you, the others will ignore your letters.

But by all means write to other ministers, who have responsibility in this area.

[tripit]

cossak,

It is no use writing to other than your own MP. He or she is there to represent you, the others will ignore your letters.

But by all means write to other ministers, who have responsibility in this area.

hello

The two ministers have found are Euro ministers am writting direct also sending some info on the area and the men the we should be looking after and not to neglect our duty to them they have done they duty so let us respect them in ever way we can

cossack They will not be forgotten ever

[MelPack]

Victoria

Further to your post on the officers' service papers, I was wondering if you had picked up on a post on another thread made by linge a month ago:

Hope this is of use an obituary for Coulton from a Kings Lynn Newspaper

Coulton, Aubrey Ewan

Captain, 6th Batt Norfolk Regt., attached Royal Warwickshire Regt; born in 1889; fell at Drury Lane Trenches, Laventie, close to Estaires July 19, 1916. At first he was posted as “missing, believed killed,” but on Nov. 12, 1916, the following telegram was received from the War Office: “Regret to inform you that the name of Capt. A. E. Coulton, Norfolk Regt., appears in a German list of dead. No. 183A disc recovered. No further particulars.” In a letter dated July 21, 1916, Lieut-Col J. J. Shannessy, 2/6 Royal Warwick Regt., wrote: “Capt. Coulton was last seen leading his company in an attack on the German trenches and was seen to fall seriously wounded ……..I feel his loss deeply; he was a splendid fellow and a highly efficient officer. It will be some consolation to you to know that he fell doing his duty in a noble and heroic way. He was a great favourite with us all………” From the narrative of Sergt. W. Bigland: “Our orders from Capt. Coulton were to advance in four waves, myself being in charge of the second and the Captain the third, with instructions to lie down and wait the signal to advance from him. Captain Coulton was ten yards or so to my left and during the rush got in front of me. He turned round and shouted ‘Come on, Bigland’ (I had picked up a bag of bombs, having my rifle broken), and while turning round to shout to me he was hit …….Where the Captain fell would be about 60 yards from the enemy’s trenches……In my mind there is no possible doubt that he died instantly, as from the similarity of my wound (in the shoulder) he was shot through the head with a machine-gun.” Sergt. Bigland adds that Capt Colton had only a stick in his hand with a spike iron at the end and his revolver pouch. Of the 180 men in his company who went out there were 79 casualties. Bigland thought Saxons were manning trenches that day, but they may have been reinforced by Bavarians or Prussians. Pte Childs a machine gunner, who was hit in the chest and shoulder by machine-gun fire during the attack says: “Everyone liked Capt. Coulton; you never saw him without a smile on his face. I don’t believe anyone ever did, no matter what was going on. Those 16 days we were in the trenches without any rest he was walking up and down the trenches with the shells bursting close to him, right in the trench and he was smiling and saying funny things to make the men cheerful. Once the trench was blown in and some of the men were buried and the Captain stood and dug them out right in the thick of the fire. I was helping him. Captain Coulton never used to get flurried. He was always cool and smiling and you felt safe with him. We would have followed him anywhere.” - The last evening he was in England, Capt Coulton was standing in a Norfolk garden watching the sun setting across the meadow to the river Nar. “How beautiful it is!” he exclaimed. “I wonder if I shall ever see it again.” The last thing he wrote was a pencilled note written when he must have known that he was going to almost certain death the next day. “……Things are very cheery, I think. Pray God it is the beginning of the end ……” Thus was one of Lynn’s most promising lives cut short. Aubrey Coulton was the elder son of Mr. Richard Calthrop Coulton and a grandson of Mr. John James Coulton, and he was a partner in the legal firm of Coulton and Sons, King-st., Lynn. He had been very successful in law examinations, for in Feb., 1913 it was announced that at the examination for honours to candidates for admission on the Roll of Solicitors of the Supreme Court, Aubrey Ewan Coulton was recommended as being entitled to honourable distinction (Class 1). His name was the only one which appears in Class 1 of the distinctions and he was also awarded the Daniel Reardon Prize of books and the Clement’s Inn Prize of books. He was educated at King Edward VII Grammar School, Lynn under the Rev F Stephenson. He served his articles with his father and read with Messrs Gibson and Welldon the law coaches. He was gazetted second-lieutenant in the 6th Norfolks on Sept. 17, 1908; a lieutenant on Jan 26, 1910; and was promoted Captain shortly before the outbreak of war. The Gazette of July 27, 1916 announced that he had been seconded for duty with the Warwickshire Regt. At a meeting of the Grimston magistrates on April 30, 1915 he was appointed clerk to the justices in succession to the late Mr. J. S. B. Glasier, but except for one occasion when home on leave he never attended at the Court in his official capacity, having been on military service since Aug., 1914. On Aug. 5, 1915, the Bench of Magistrates (Mr. W. A. Meredith presiding) passed a vote of condolence with the bereaved relatives, and paid a tribute to Capt. Coulton’s memory. In Oct., 1915, Capt. Coulton was married to Miss Kathleen Anne Clarendon, elder daughter of Dr. D. J. C. Godfrey, of Bridlington. A posthumous daughter, Celia was born in Sept., 1916.

The verbatim quote from the telegram dated 12 November 1916 (presumably sent to his widow) is further confirmation of the German list.

The most intriguing aspect is the description of the location of Coulton's death being 60 yards from the German frontline trench. The 2/6ths Warks neither breached nor apparently reached the frontline trench.

It is understandable that the Germans cleared the enemy dead from their own trenches and the parapets. It is possibly stretching it a little far to suggest that they also cleared the enemy dead from no mans land.

If the account of Coulton's death is accurate and he was killed some sixty yards from the frontline then it may well be that his identification and possessions were removed in foraging sortes into no mans land for intelligence gathering purposes in the aftermath of the battle i.e. unit identification.

If this is the case then even if the list can be located, inclusion of a name may not be definitive proof of interment in the pits.

Just some speculative thoughts.

Regards

Mel

ps Keep up the good work

[Fedelmar]

I have seen in the files of the Australian boys reports in their Red Cross and service files stating that some were last seen to fall in no man's land. I made a mental note of it but not being up to speed on battle history I didn't mention it to any of the others. It certainly raises a point and it would be interesting to read the German documents regarding the battle and the detailed 'clean up' duties.

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[MelPack]

Sandra

We know that of the British Battalions only the 2/7ths Warks and possibly the Bucks breached the line.

The intelligence foraging could possibly explain why some of the men in other units than these two battalions retained their four figure numbers rather than being renumbered before finally being officially confirmed as dead ie they were also included in the German list.

As you say, German documentation in relation to the clearance would cast a light but, alas, it is doubtful whether it exists.

There can be no doubt that a great many Aussies died in the trench system and are interred in the pits but there must be some doubt as to whether inclusion in the list, which we now know was certainly in the hands of the War Office by November 1916, automatically equates to burial.

Regards

Mel

[Fedelmar]

Mel ... why wouldn't records exist in Germany?

We have been very fortunate in Australia that the required information is in the records. If you haven't checked our website it is at www.fromelles.net

The family histories of the men are almost complete and ready to pass on the the Army History Unit ... we just have to hope that there is enough information there for them to complete the search for the rest of the surviving families.

Bright Blessings

Sandra