Fromelles16: July 19th events

[1st AIF]

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[1st AIF]

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page 6 of 6 . Mission complete, return to base. Len

[PBI]

Just Checked Details of Pte H.Tipple out on the CWGC Site,and He is Buried in Cabaret Rouge Mil Cem,Souchez,which is a fair Distance away from where He was Killed at Fromelles,this would Immediatley suggest to me that His Body was recovered some time after the War and interred in the nearest CWGC Cemetery that was open at the time for accepting Burials.When i get some spare time,i will trawl through Lens Casualty list and see if many more of the British Casualties have a known Grave,and its location.Possibly more British Casualties in Cabaret Rouge,and Surrounding Cemeteries.

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=327835

Quite a Few Fromelles Casualties in Laventie.

[macca172]

From "the Australian" newspaper.

Fromelles diary reveals nation's worst day-Stuart Rintoul-August 02, 2008

IN July 1916, Frederick Percy Williams was an Australian priest at war, a Church of England chaplain captain who recorded in his diary that "rural France in leafy June was a glory and delight after the sands of the desert".

A month later, Williams, attached to the 58th Battalion of the 15th Brigade of the 5th Australian Division, made up of men from the western district of Victoria, witnessed the worst 24 hours in Australian history, when 5533 soldiers were killed, wounded or taken prisoner at the battle of Fromelles.

From beyond the mass grave of an estimated 170 Diggers, Australians have gained a new understanding of the Fromelles campaign, one the Australian and British governments plan to commemorate by exhuming, identifying and reburying each soldier 92 years after he fell.

From the yellowed pages of his previously unpublished diary, provided to The Weekend Australian by a private collector, Williams writes of the battle, the horrific casualties and a "morning of desolation".

Wednesday, July 19: "I came up to the Rouge de Bour dressing station just at the back of the lines where I was engaged the whole night administering hot drinks of beef tea to the wounded.

"The casualties were very heavy ... In the morning the division returned to its original line having taken about 400 German prisoners. But what a casualty list was ours? The 60th battalion were withdrawn in the early morning and mustered one officer and 80 men strong (later, other records would say that of 887 men in this battalion, only one officer and 106 men of other ranks survived). The 59th battalion one officer and 64 strong.

"Our brigade was immediately relieved. They had been without food for 24 hours. I found the rations of the night previous and we cut up some bread and cheese in hunks and the rum we mixed in the tea. They did relish it. One lad said to me, as he tasted his drink, 'My word Padre, you won't be able to preach temperance when you go back to Warrnambool again'. There was a sally at this and I had to join in the laugh against myself. They had most admirable spirit despite our losses. We left a big number of dead in no man's land. The total casualties in killed and wounded and missing amount to 7800 in our one division alone. This bloody battle of Fromelles.

"It was seemingly a morning of desolation. Artillery duels were still going strongly as we commenced the task of bringing up the dead. In the afternoon, staff and I went down to the trenches. I found Chaplain Maxted (who would later be credited with helping 150 wounded away from the front line) at the end of Brompton Avenue all hunched up but quite dead. I attempted to straighten his body but was seen by the Bosch in the gap that had been blown in the trench and they turned their machine gun on me so I had to get out.

"The wastage on the battlefield is terrific - men, guns, shells, our stores are littered everywhere. The object of the attack was to force the enemy to concentrate on the ridge of Fromelles and thus relieve the pressure on the Somme and this result we believe was achieved. Night fell with a silence as rare as profound and we obtained some much needed rest. We relieved at 9pm, utterly worn out."

Williams was awarded a Military Cross in 1918 and returned to Australia the following year to be reunited with his wife, Belle, and son, Jack, "the boy I hardly knew". He ministered in the Victorian towns of Donald and Mortlake and was Canon of Christ Church Cathedral, Ballarat, from 1923-39.

[velo350]

Hi all,

I have done a little research for our Brit counterparts, thanks to CEW Bean and Robin Corfield. According to Bean the only Brits that occupied the German Line were the 2/7 Warwickshires and maybe a handful of of the 2/1 Bucks. Corfield lists the British Dead and includes the cemeteries. A lot are commemorated at the Loos Memeorial which means they have no known grave. On a cursory count (needs checking) the Loos list is as follows:

2/6 Warwicks 77

2/7 Warwicks 72

2/4 Gloucesters 21

2/6 Gloucesters 43

2/1 Bucks 86

Total : 299

My flight of fancy theory is that there may be more Australians in the pits at Pheasant Wood than we realise. There are 175 named Australians in the pits and >140 others who everyone is assuming to be Brits. It seems incredulous that 47% of the British missing are in the pits whereas only 175/1306 or 13% of the Australian missing are in the pits. Given that only one British battalion , the 2/7 Warwicks entered the German line the numbers are a bit shaky. Can anyone offer a reason why the figures are so different? Did the Germans bring in the British dead from no mans land?

Anyway the next posts are of the British casualties.

Len

Len,

The lists of British casualties in Corfield's are not acurate. How do I know?

My Grandfather is not included. He was a Gunner in 61 st Div RFA and died on 20th July 16.

He is buried in Merville communtity cemerty.

I would be very wary of using the Corfield list for any accurate research.

Regards

Mike B

[Victoria Burbidge]

Tim ... Andrew posted the details of Corfield's book yesterday ... I am sure he would oblige Victoria and send her a copy of the names.

Thank you Sandra. I appreciate that. Thank you also Mike and Len for your input. This is our first attempt at calculating the number of British men from the front line battalions who died on 19th July 1916 as analysed by battalion and cemetery/memorial. The information is extracted from the CWGC database via Geoff’s excellent search engine. The numbers don’t quite tally with Len’s count from Don’t Forget Me, Cobber, but in my years of research I have never managed to get two sources to tally on casualty numbers. Mr B. and I will be cross-checking the full list against the Roll of Honour you posted as well as the lists extracted from SDGW.

Battalion - Cemetery: Number of Men

2/4 Gloucesters - Bouzincourt: 1

2/4 Gloucesters - Fleurbaix: 5

2/4 Gloucesters - Laventie: 6

2/4 Gloucesters - Loos: 18

2/4 Gloucesters - Thiepval: 3

2/6 Gloucesters - Aubers Ridge: 3

2/6 Gloucesters - Cabaret-Rouge: 2

2/6 Gloucesters - Fleurbaix: 4

2/6 Gloucesters - Laventie: 12

2/6 Gloucesters - Loos: 41

2/1 Ox & Bucks - Aubers Ridge: 4

2/1 Ox & Bucks - Fleurbaix: 1

2/1 Ox & Bucks - La Gorgue: 1

2/1 Ox & Bucks - Laventie: 14

2/1 Ox & Bucks - Loos: 78

2/1 Ox & Bucks - Merville: 5

2/4 Ox & Bucks - Fleurbaix: 1

2/4 Ox & Bucks - Laventie: 6

2/4 Ox & Bucks - Loos: 2

2/4 Berkshires - Laventie: 26

2/6 Warwickshires - Aubers Ridge: 15

2/6 Warwickshires - Loos: 73

2/6 Warwickshires - Ploegsteert: 2

2/6 Warwickshires - RIR Graveyard, Laventie: 1

2/7 Warwickshires - Aubers Ridge: 6

2/7 Warwickshires - Cabaret-Rouge: 3

2/7 Warwickshires - Laventie: 1

2/7 Warwickshires - Loos: 71

2/8 Warwickshires - Laventie: 1

2/7 Worcestershire - Loos: 1

Total: 407

[Victoria Burbidge]

Here are the same numbers aggregated to show the total number of British casualties for Fromelles by cemetery/memorial for 19th July 1916. We have not included the figures for 20th July (or later) as there are no “missing” from Fromelles for this date.

Cemetery/Memorial numbers:

Loos - 284

Thiepval - 3

Ploegsteert - 2

Aubers Ridge - 28

Bouzincourt - 1

Cabaret-Rouge - 5

RIR Graveyard, Laventie - 1

Fleurbaix - 11

La Gorgue - 1

Merville - 5

Laventie - 66

Total: 407

[sjustice]

Bravo Victoria.

You go, girl.

Kind Regards,

SMJ

[Auimfo]

Well done Victoria. Len came up with 299 on the Loos Memorial (but admitted it was only a cursory count) and you came up with 284. Fairly close I'd think.

Of the other cemeteries, how many are unknown graves, known graves and memorials?

[MelPack]

If you look at the postings from 19 June onwards Annette and me had an exchange about the British casualties.

The 2/7th Warks temporarily occupied the fronline German trench and had 71 casualties without known graves commemorated on the Loos Memorial. Out of the 71, 32 of the commemorated have their original four figue number retained with the balance of 39 having been renumbered with six figures in March/April 1917.

We speculated that the 32 that were not renumbered could have had confirmation of their deaths corroborated by another source (return of possessions via the Red Cross?).

The service papers that I have been able to search via Ancestory disclosed no information that would provide a clue.

Reagrds

Mel

[RobertBr]

Yesterdays Oxford Mail published a short article about the planned Fromelles reburiels. They are appealing for relatives of men from the 2/4 Battalion Oxon & Bucks to contact them. (news@oxfordmail.co.uk)

Bob

[Victoria Burbidge]

Of the other cemeteries, how many are unknown graves, known graves and memorials?

Tim, the figures are as follows:

Memorials:

Loos Memorial- 284

Thiepval Memorial - 3

Ploegsteert Memorial - 2

Total: 289

Known Graves:

Aubers Ridge - 28

Bouzincourt - 1

Cabaret-Rouge - 5

RIR Graveyard, Laventie - 1

Fleurbaix - 11

La Gorgue - 1

Merville - 5

Laventie – 66

Total: 118

As far as I’m aware, no one has done a tally of the number of “unknown” British burials in the Fromelles area and I don’t know that the results would be conclusive enough to be of any use.

You mentioned in a previous post regarding the Australian burials that “Officially there are 618 in known graves and 1131 in graves marked as unknown in the surrounding cemeteries”. Has anyone checked the place of origin of these 1,131 burials? In other words, can you be sure that they all originated from the action at Fromelles? I only ask because I have one man, killed at Fromelles in May 1915, who is buried at New Irish Farm near Ypres and one man buried at Ration Farm Cemetery (Bois Grenier, France) who was killed at Westhoek Ridge, south of Ypres.

I am in no way questioning the excellent work which you and your colleagues have done so far, but for some time now I’ve been toying with the idea that if we are looking at a total figure of 399, it may possible that the ratio could be higher in favour of the Australian dead than the British? Is it possible that Len’s “flight of fancy” may not be a flight of fancy after all?

V.

[Auimfo]

Victoria,

Therefore you have a list of 289 possible British soldiers who may be buried at Pheasant Wood. No doubt some of this number are actually buried as 'unknown' in CWGC cemeteries but as you state it would be exceptionally difficult to establish which ones these may be unless a date of death was also listed on the headstone. Even then, if you could work out which 'unknown' burials referred to the action of 19-20 July, it might help establish the number you are looking for but won't remove any of the names from your original list of 289.

In the case of the Australians, they had never fought in the area before so the 'unknown graves in the area would almost certainly be from this engagement. We are also lucky enough to be able to check each individuals service file for the German death vouchers and the resulting maths has seemed to confirm the addition.

According to CEW Bean, the 2/1/Ox & Bucks and 2/7 Warwicks managed to reach and hold the German lines (I suppose it is possible that small elements of other regiments also made it to the front line German trenches) Bean's account also states that the Warwicks had no real problems crossing no-man's land and occupying the German trench. This would indicate that most of it's casualties were probably not in no-man's land but occured later in the German front line trench. This may be a reason why the percentage is so much greater as Len pointed out.

However, I must admit that Len's 'flight of fancy' echoes a sneaking suspicion I've held for a little while. I don't believe there are as many British soldiers at Pheasant Wood as expected. If you look at those from the 2/7 Warwicks and 2/1 Ox & Bucks missing listed on memorials, it adds up to 149. If we make the assumption that some of these are actually buried in CWGC cemeteries as unknowns, it reduces the number potentially at Pheasant Wood.

I think that Mel may very well be onto something. I'd be examining the 289 on memorials to see who didn't have their service numbers changed (starting with the 2/7 Warwicks and 2/1 Ox & Bucks). The results might be very, very revealing.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[1st AIF]

I feel quite chuffed my flight of fancy theory is getting some street cred. We know that there are 175 named Aussies but why was it assumed that these were the only Aussies? My theory would only be correct if the number of dead picked up in no mans land after the war and named as Australians is incorrect. What startles me about the body clean up after the war is that they reckon next to none of the dead could be recognised individually. This reeks of sloppy work, perhaps by non English speaking labourers. If the identification work regarding finding individual identification was sloppy then the work regarding nationality was equally sloppy. Say for example there were 100 dead British from previous attacks in front of the Aussie positions on 19th July. After the war it is feasible the "counting party" regarded all dead in front of these positions as Australians, especially if their clothes had rotted off and their badges had fallen away. In this example this would create another 100 missing Australians. It would also mean that there are British buried in VC Corner.

I am also concerned that the CT dug by the 8th Bde became full of dead and it is extremely likely that the Germans used this as a convenient grave when they filled it back in on their side of no mans land. I feel sure that the CT may very well contain more remains.

Can someone please email me Lambis' email address and I'll see if the maestro himself has already considered this.

Another thing that could quash my theory is the distance between the trenches may have been less in the British area and that more British were killed closer to the German parapet, but then would the Germans risk coming out into no mans' land just to collect rotting enemy dead?

Another laborious task is to read the red cross reports of ALL Australian missing from Fromelles and see how many witnesses there were to deaths in the German lines and then see if they were NOT included in the German Pheasant Wood list. If an Aussie died behind German lines and was not included in the Pheasant Wood list where was he buried?

Len

[Auimfo]

Len,

I feel fairly comfortable with the numbers of Australians being around 175. The service records of all the 'missing' have already been checked and those with German documentation located. Of course there are still one or two being added and discounted but the number is pretty concrete. The only way more Australians are in the mass grave is if even the Germans couldn't identify them and therefore couldn't put a name to them - but according to the numbers, this wouldn't be too many.

Therefore, if there are significantly less than that number of Australians then we can almost be certain that there's another grave somewhere.

Where I agree with your theory is that there may actually be less British in the graves than anticipated. As Mel pointed out, why did some of the British missing recieve new service numbers but others not? Could this indeed be because those re-numbered were still only considered as 'missing' and the others had been confirmed as KIA? If so, how was this confirmation made - German death lists perhaps???

Cheers,

Tim L.

[tripit]

Hi all have just formatted the last of the Frommels gathering`s the following are just afew comments.

1 the gentleman who made the comment about not seeing any rep. from the R.B.L. i cannot say if there were more than the 3 of us, and or the wreaths myself and 2friends laid a wreath each from our regements

2 No one knows how the heroic men feel as they were laid in the place they have rested in for the past 90 years so please think of them and not what you think they might want. what do there relatives want.

3 my friand was asked to be quiet whilest the service was on untill he say the the commetary was for me and not him then he moved away when a french lady ( turned out to be the lady who owens the field ) it was. u are very rude appogise to this man as he is blind.

he was an officer. .4. before iwent to frommels ,asked if it would be if i laied wreath on be half of the G.W.F . did not have reply ,so i went ahead any way

cossack

[tripit]

Sorry forgot to mention the lady`s of thr group sorry for omition

the spelling bad braille is a bit worn

c. :

[truthergw]

............ What startles me about the body clean up after the war is that they reckon next to none of the dead could be recognised individually. This reeks of sloppy work, perhaps by non English speaking labourers. ..............................

Len

I wonder if perhaps you are being slightly less than fair to the men who undertook this task. These bodies had lain in the open for at least 3 years. Trenches were dug, and redug. Mines were exploded. Shells exploded day in, day out. The elements in the shape of winter storm and summer sun had wreaked their worst. You find it hard to believe that a hundred or so of the men could not be identified. I find it very likely and am amazed at how many were.

[Ozzie]

Cossak, if I get the meaning of your post correctly, thankyou.

Hope you get a new keyboard soon.

Cheers

Kim

[PBI]

I wonder if perhaps you are being slightly less than fair to the men who undertook this task. These bodies had lain in the open for at least 3 years. Trenches were dug, and redug. Mines were exploded. Shells exploded day in, day out. The elements in the shape of winter storm and summer sun had wreaked their worst. You find it hard to believe that a hundred or so of the men could not be identified. I find it very likely and am amazed at how many were.

[Victoria Burbidge]

It would also mean that there are British buried in VC Corner.

Len, I queried this with Martial some time ago. I have the greatest regard for his knowledge of all things related to Fromelles. He also works for the CWGC and so has good background knowledge of the local cemeteries. He assures me that only Australians were buried at VC Corner. If the bodies brought in from the battlefield could not positively be identified as being Australian, they were not buried at VC Corner.

V.

[1st AIF]

Tom/Victoria

The way I understand it is that as a result of Fromelles, 1131 Australians were buried in graves identified only as a soldier of the great war.

I also understand that after the war, not a hundred, but none or next to none of the Australian bodies that were recovered from NML were identified. I find this extremely unlikely given that identity discs, pay books, bracelets, letters, bibles, engraved cutlery, cigarette cases etc would have existed on some of the soldiers. I vaguely remember reading about the rehabilitation of the "zone rouge" after the war and that foreign laboureres were used to fill in trenches etc. I am not claiming that they recovered bodies and hopefully this was done by the CWGC using Empire troops, but it seems highly unusual that almost no-one was identified.

Victoria I very much respect Martial's knowledge but is that information that has been passed down to him or did it come from official reports?

Ian has posted a good photo above. Imagine if that body was actually a Brit who was killed in 1915 but was surrounded by Australian dead from 1916. Would the labourers or CWGC after a hot day in the sun assume that he was just another Aussie - maybe. If this is the case there could, I say again could be Brits in VC corner. But if as Victoria says all the Australians had to be positively identified and this I guess was from colour patches, boots and badges then I am hopelessly wrong.

The main question is if there are 175 Aussies in Pheasant Wood and 140 unknown - who are the unknowns when apparently all the Australians have been accounted for and it is seeming unlikely that 140 Brits were killed behind German lines. We may well have to wait until next year to get the answer to this. I was just trying to help the Brits come up with a short list as to who could be in Pheasant Wood.

Len

[Fedelmar]

Please remember that we are speaking about incidents 92 years ago (give or take). The prime focus would have been on burying these men. They had neither the equipment or knowledge we do today when carrying out the tasks of identification.

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[dekenai]

Those identified were 'A Soldier Of the Great War', 'An (Australian/NZ/British etc) Soldier of the Great War', or 'An Unknown Soldier of the Great War', but now with many of the families of those killed gone, what religion do we place on their headstone?

Jews has a star of David, those 'christians' a cross, those without religion no cross (few and far between), so how do we bury those unknown?

anyone?

dekenai

[Fedelmar]

Speaking for the Australians their religion was recorded in their service records. Having said that, I have seen service records with more than one religion mentioned.

To answer your last question ... that will be a matter decided between the powers and rightly so

Bright Blessings

Sandra