Guest braind7 Posted 12 November , 2014 Share Posted 12 November , 2014 Hi Matthew, Big thank you...Very grateful indeed for such a prompt and brilliantly helpful reply.. from the diary link you provided I have been able to now pinpoint that he was in the front line at Thelus when he was wounded. Though not mentioned by name there were 3 killed and 6 wounded that evening from enemy bombardment of T.M's and aeriel torpedoes. Sadly I don't have any other info on him in the Lancashires. My brother will be thrilled with the info you have provided. You are a rare star Matthew!...great job! many thanks again Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Atkins Posted 13 November , 2014 Share Posted 13 November , 2014 You're very welcome Pat - there is another portrait of SAH that belongs to my brother in law which I will try and copy. What's your connection to the 23rd? This is a great thread - very friendly! It IS a friendly thread, and a very worthy one! My connection is my dad's uncle 1311 L/Sgt William Frederick Atkins, 1/23rd Londons, who was killed at Givenchy on 26th May 1915. I believe he was D Company, but know almost nothing else about him really (alas, no photo either). He was an off-licence porter who lived in Clapham, had been with the battalion since February 1912, and was only 20 when he was killed in action. With all the casualties the battalion took from 1915 until the end of the war, I was very glad to hear Stan H survived and led a long and happy life thereafter. Cheers, Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garylewis Posted 27 December , 2014 Share Posted 27 December , 2014 Tim,Here is a photo of Lt. Keith Eric Wood.Best regards,Matthew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garylewis Posted 27 December , 2014 Share Posted 27 December , 2014 I am researching service of wilfred Henry Lewis 1/23rd London regiment from battersea Kia battle of festubert 26/5/1915 Also serving in the same 142nd brig were his brothers frederick and after the conflict the youngest my grandfather Francis Stephen Lewis any help with research appreciated Gary@a1plc.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westkent78 Posted 29 December , 2014 Author Share Posted 29 December , 2014 Gary, Thanks for posting. Please see your other thread on Wilfred. Matthew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Hedges Posted 6 January , 2015 Share Posted 6 January , 2015 Hi there, I have just joined this forum and live in New Zealand. Recently I visited Belgium and paid respects at Passendale and Messine. This re-ignited an interest in where my Great Grandfather had fought. The first thing to do was find out some details. He never talked much about the great war, and to be honest I was probably too young to remember if he had. I researched memorial records in NZ and found his grave along with my Great Grandmothers. His details are Patrick Francis McAuliffe 212895 L/CPL 23 London regiment. I am interested in finding out where he fought, and I suspect he was injured at some time as he married a nurse he met. So that then brings me to my Great Grandmother. Lucy Rosina McAuliffe nee Johnson 42722 PTE W.A.A.C. And Info or directions would be greatly appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 6 January , 2015 Share Posted 6 January , 2015 Hi Steve, Welcome to the forum The British War and Victory Medal Roll for the Rifle Brigade shows: "212896 A/L/Cpl McAuliffe Patrick Francis" as: 23/Lond.R. Pte.1937 1a 15.3.15 to 28.5.15 21/Lond.R. 700279 2a 30.3.17 to 18.6.17 21/Lond.R. " 4b 22.6.17 to 3.6.18 13/Lond.R. 494569 4b 4.6.18 to 21.8.18 21/Rif.Brig. 212986 4b 22.8.18 to 18.9.18 " " " " India From his Medal Index Card it shows that Patrick first disembarked in France on 15th March 1915. As such he was also entitled to the 1914/15 Star Medal. I was unable to find any service/pension record for Patrick on Ancestry. I didn't find any evidence of him being wounded, but the date gap between the 23rd and 21st battalions might be indicative of that. The war diaries for the battalions should be available for download from the National Archive: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/war-diaries-ww1.htm These would allow you to follow the movements of the battalions on a day by day basis, with a short narrative of events. However, they are unlikely to mention your great grandfather by name. The National Archive does appear to hold some records (available for download) on your great grandmother: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?discoveryCustomSearch=true&_fn=lucy&_ln=johnson&_pl=&_cr1=WO+398&_col=200&_sf=DRETITLE&_sf=DESCRIPTION&_hb=tna&image1.x=29&image1.y=12 Good luck with your research. Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westkent78 Posted 6 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 6 January , 2015 Hello Steve, Thanks for posting in this thread. Well Chris appears to have got the basics for you, so here is what I can fill in. He joined up probably in the first week of July 1914, certainly no later than 6th July. He was in C Company when 1/23rd went to France in March 1915. His date of leaving France on 28th May 1915 would indicate very strongly that he was wounded on 25th/26th May at Givenchy, most of the 'lucky' casualties who made it back to UK appear to have left around that date. Hopefully your Great Grandmother's file will show where she was serving in 1915-17 so you can work out which hospital he was sent to. He may also have been held back in UK for longer than it took him to recover from his wound, as I suspect he may only have been 17 in 1915. Was he born 1898 in Wandsworth? Any info on his parents would be gratefully received so I can track him down. After his recovery and presumably meeting your great grandmother, he is sent in a draft to 2/21st London in Salonika, even though he has a six digit 23rd London number. He wouldn't have had to change his number when transferred as 21st London were of the same corps (East Surreys) as 23rd London, but would have been issued it in Jan/Feb 1917. He remains with 2/21st when they move to Egypt and on the reduction of 2/21st on 3rd June 1918 he's part of the draft that goes to 2/13th London (other drafts went to 2/19th and 2/22nd) and gets his number changed. He probably has some form of medical downgrade when with 2/13th which leads to his transfer to 21st Rifle Brigade, another number change, and ultimately his garrisoning of India until some time in mid 1919 when those battalions of the Rifle Brigade seem to have returned home. By the way, you don't have to download the 23rd or 21st London war diaries at the National Archives, just go here http://qrrarchive.websds.net/menu1.aspx?li=1 and click East Surrey and the diaries for 1/23rd and 2/21st should be there. I'd suggest starting another thread on your great grandmother if you haven't already done so, as the gurus on the W.A.A.C may not see it buried in this thread. Best regards, Matthew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 6 January , 2015 Share Posted 6 January , 2015 Steve, Just a little to let you know of his time with the 21st Rifle Brigade. On the 22/8/18 they were still in Cairo having relieved the 1st Garrison Battalion Royal Irish Regiment. In September 1918 they sailed from Port Tewfik in H.M.T. Palamcotta, touching Aden on 24th September. Their fate was not, however, an exciting one, for on 15th October they arrived at Fyzabad for Internal Security Duties. During March 1919 they lost a large number or men returning to the coalfields, and in April of that year moved to Madras with a detachment at Calicut. On 12th October they moved to Deolali, and by 30th November were reduced to eighty-three all ranks. The cadre embarked in S.S. Macedonia arriving in Southampton 26th December 1919 and was finally demobilized two months later on 26th February 1920. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westkent78 Posted 7 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 7 January , 2015 Thanks Andy. Glad you showed up here. Do you know if my supposition about the reason men transferred to 21st Rifle Brigade from 2/13th , or other London battalions in Egypt- that they were medically downgraded, actually holds water? I'm basing it on some of the other men in those 'India garrison' RB battalions which I've run across with the RWK. Best regards, Matthew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Hedges Posted 7 January , 2015 Share Posted 7 January , 2015 Thanks guys, your assistance is fantastic and well appreciated. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 7 January , 2015 Share Posted 7 January , 2015 Hi Matthew, Certainly these battalions were regularly visited to weed out any medically fit men so medically downgraded seems a reasonably safe bet. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westkent78 Posted 8 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 8 January , 2015 Hello Andy, Great. Thanks. And Happy New Year to you. Matthew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richardgreen1908 Posted 29 January , 2015 Share Posted 29 January , 2015 Matthew I am currently researching my Grandfather, Joseph Green, and my Great Uncle William George Green who served in the 1/23rd London Regiment and the 13th (Wandsworth) Bttn East Surrey Regiment respectively. I had no idea until I emigrated to Canada in 2012 that I even had Great Uncles, but on visiting my Aunt before leaving England she happened to mention that I had 3 of them, all separated at a young age following the death of their father. One, Ernest, went to Canada as a Home child with Dr Barnados, William George was killed in 1918, and one died in infancy. Although they were separated in different homes they managed to reestablish contact in later years and it was known that Joe joined up first and did not want his elder brother to join up because of what he saw, but eventually William did apparently in 1916. Joseph survived the war but was gravely wounded and spent some time in hospital. My Aunt has his war medals, and his numbers are 2338 and 700434. I have a number of pictures of him in uniform, with other soldiers and of 2 companies of his regiment. He died in 1975 so I was lucky enough to know him, but he never talked about his experiences, and he carried the effects of the war - he walked with a stick, had lost an eye. My father told me he had been gassed too. Before the war he was a footman in Mayfair in the 1911 census. William George grew up in a waifs and strays home, and then became a clerk of some kind. He is in the 1911 census in the Portobello Road. I have been able to find more about him - Pte 28673 KIA 9/4/18. Reading around the subject it is clear that this was a day that the 13th Battalion was effectively wiped out. He has no known grave and is commemorated on the Ploegstert memorial. There is a medal card online, but I am not sure his were ever collected. Both boys were born in Oxfordshire where the family was living from 1886 to 1892, but there is some family connection to Battersea and Wandsworth that I cant pin down. Their parents were married at Battersea St Mary, their estranged mother lived in Mitcham for a while, and these two joined local regiments. What I am not sure about was the dates and nature of the actions in which Joseph was wounded. And until I read your posts I did not know of the association between the 1/23rd and the ESR, so it had never occured to me that the brothers might have had more direct contact when in the army - it has never been clear to the family when and how the brothers managed to make contact again having been parted as infants. I am struggling with the technology as far as attaching sufficiently compressed images so if you can suggest another way to copy you the pictures I have I will happily send them regards Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westkent78 Posted 29 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 29 January , 2015 Hello Richard, Glad you posted. Thanks for sharing all that information. I'll pm you regarding the photos. Joseph's service papers have survived and are online. Looks like he joined up 31st August 1914. He was wounded twice, first at Givenchy on 26th May 1915 with a GSW to the hand which was serious enough to get him back to England, and then after he returned just in time for Loos it appears he served through the battalion's involvement in the Somme. He was wounded again at Messines on 8th June 1917, this time a GSW to the left leg (no mention of his eye) and it was this occasion which meant he was invalided out. He was serving in B Company in 1915. I'm probably reading too much into the data, but his worry about William joining up may have been due to the fact that the men he enlisted with (possibly his friends) who had consecutive numbers to his all died on 26th or 27th May and he was the only survivor of that group of 5 or so. They were all serving in B Company too. You should be able to look at the war diaries of both 1/23rd and 13th ESR from this link: http://qrrarchive.websds.net/menu1.aspx?li=1 As for William, it looks like his medals were issued and received as there is no note that they were returned because next-of-kin were unable to be found. His widow Salome is his next of kin so she would have received his medals and plaque. Best regards, Matthew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richardgreen1908 Posted 29 January , 2015 Share Posted 29 January , 2015 Matthew, thankyou for the information - I want to read up a bit about the actions he was wounded in. My father told me he was at the Somme too. I have a picture of him on a hospital ward in crutches and clearly missing an eye, so although not recorded it must have happened at the same time. My Aunt says he was dogged by gangrene for some time from the gunshot wound. I have a couple of questions - is the service record available through Ancestry? and - Is there any other recommended reading about the actions he was involved in apart from the war diaries? The other information that is new to me is that William George was married. I could find very little about him in military records and I did not think to look for a marriage - what was your source? regards Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westkent78 Posted 29 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 29 January , 2015 Richard, His file is on both Ancestry and FindMyPast. You'll need http://www.naval-military-press.com/23rd-london-regiment-1798-1919..html which should fill you in for the time being. With regard to William, I haven't found a service file yet but I did find his MIC which you mentioned. Looks like he joined 9th Middlesex Regiment, and was trained with 2/9th. He can't have gone overseas until 1917 because he only has a six digit number on his MIC and I suspect he was diverted directly from the Infantry Depot in France to the 13th East Surreys rather than go to any other battalion of the Middlesex Regt which is what he may have initially expected. His number in the ESR is in the midst of a batch of men who all come from 2/9th or 3/10th Middlesex and moved to 13th ESR. The source for the marriage is the recently released Army Registers of Soldiers Effects on Ancestry. Best regards, Matthew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richardgreen1908 Posted 17 February , 2015 Share Posted 17 February , 2015 Matthew thankyou very much for all of the material you sent me and for the link to the War diaries and Regimental History, which I have now read. I have a follow up question - you said that in 1915 Joseph George Green served in B Company. I couldn't find that info on his service records and wondered a) where it is recorded, and would he have served in B Company all through his service, or indeed is it not possible to tell from contemporary records? regards Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MandyMoo Posted 17 February , 2015 Share Posted 17 February , 2015 Hello I am researching my Great Grand Uncle Herbert Francis Winn. Name: Herbert Francis Winn Discharge Unit: 23rd London Regiment: London Regiment Regimental Number: 701983 Rank: Pte Badge Number: B301578 Piece: 3174 List Number: TP 4401-4800 Record Group: WO Record Class: 329 I Copied and pasted the above information from Silver War Badge Records on Ancestry. Any help with more information or any pointers will be much appreciated . Thank You Amanda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 17 February , 2015 Share Posted 17 February , 2015 Hi Amanda, Unfortunately your great grand uncles service record no longer appears to exist, so details are missing. However, looking at the actual image for the reference to his SWB that you found, and his medal roll entry, broadly: He was renumbered in 1917 from 5147 to 701983. He did not transfer between units whilst on active service, and always remained with the 23rd battalion London Regiment. He enlisted on 5th August 1914 He first entered an active theatre (1a) on 26th June 1916 and remained there until 3rd December 1916. Subsequently he served in theatre 2a between 14th December 1916 and 15th June 1917; 4b between 19th June 1917 and 23rd June 1918; 1b between 30th June 1918 and 3rd July 1918; and 1a between 4th July 1918 and 15th February 1919. He was discharged due to "sickness" on 15th April 1919 The battalion war diaries should give you a "broad brush" idea about his specific movements, and the events that his unit was involved in. Sorry I can't be of any more help. Good luck with your research. Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MandyMoo Posted 18 February , 2015 Share Posted 18 February , 2015 Chris Many thanks for your help, I can now add these details to his timeline. This tells me he was in Egypt when his brother ( my Grt Grandfather) died 1 August 1917 Herbert F Winn lived until his was 87 (he died in 1982). I will look into researching the war diaries. Regards Amanda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 18 February , 2015 Share Posted 18 February , 2015 Matthew, Recently being doing a bit of work on the B/2***** series of numbers in the Rifle Brigade where a few 1/23rd Londons appear and would appreciate a little of your knowledge on the battalion. Quite a few were 1/23rd and on arrival overseas were transferred to 1/21st Londons on 11/10/16, followed by a transfer on the 5/11/6 to The Rifle Brigade having been allocated numbers to the 21st, these are all mainly in October 1916. One man I have been asked to look into is Arthur Branson 4096, embodied 21/5/15, transferred into the 1/23rd on 27/10/15. He served at home 21/5/15 to 26/10/15, France 27/10/15 to 8/2/16 and went back to England on 9/2/16. No wounding was found in his record however he attended a course at the Central Armoury in Portsmouth. His record gives him as Acting Corporal attached on 8/2/16 so I am presuming he was sent home for this course???? a pure assumption. He was transferred to the 3/23rd 1/4/16 and then transferred to base on 11/10/16 his first day back in France. On the 11/10/16 he was transferred to the 21st Londons and given the number 7158, then he was transferred to the 9th Rifle Brigade and given the number B/200705 followed by 12th Rifle Brigade in 1918 being transferred to Class Z on 21/3/19. He was awarded the 1914-15 Star, British War Medal and Victory Medal. I have been coming across a reasonable amount of the Rifle Brigade B/2***** series that were not training reserve but had previously served overseas in various Regiments, in fact the first true training reserve man that I can find is B/200765, previous to that number all had come from many Regiments, a good proportion from the London Regiment, some had seen service overseas before whereas a majority had been transferred after arrival in France. Wondered if you had anything on Arthur and would a list of the men from the 23rd Londons transferred into the 21st Londons on arrival in France be of use to you?? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westkent78 Posted 18 February , 2015 Author Share Posted 18 February , 2015 Matthew thankyou very much for all of the material you sent me and for the link to the War diaries and Regimental History, which I have now read. I have a follow up question - you said that in 1915 Joseph George Green served in B Company. I couldn't find that info on his service records and wondered a) where it is recorded, and would he have served in B Company all through his service, or indeed is it not possible to tell from contemporary records? regards Richard Richard, I have a list which indicates which company the "Originals" served in on embarkation. So I'd imagine that he'd be in B Coy all the way until his first wounding. You'd like to think that he'd slot right into B Company on his return, but at present I have no way of telling for sure. Best regards, Matthew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westkent78 Posted 18 February , 2015 Author Share Posted 18 February , 2015 Hello I am researching my Great Grand Uncle Herbert Francis Winn. Name: Herbert Francis Winn Discharge Unit: 23rd London Regiment: London Regiment Regimental Number: 701983 Rank: Pte Badge Number: B301578 Piece: 3174 List Number: TP 4401-4800 Record Group: WO Record Class: 329I Copied and pasted the above information from Silver War Badge Records on Ancestry. Any help with more information or any pointers will be much appreciated . Thank You Amanda Amanda, Thank you so much for posting on my thread. Glad to hear Herbert lived to a good age. Hopefully you come back and check it again, as Chris has unfortunately missed some very important information. Herbert Winn originally joined the 3rd City of London ( Royal Fusiliers) on 30th April 1914 as number 1939, ie he was a pre-war Territorial. Not sure why the SWB roll has 5/8/14 as his enlistment date because his papers are quite clear on the April date, possibly the 5th August date is the day he was mobilized as Britain declared war and the clerk dealing with the SWB roll entered the wrong date. He was awarded his Silver War Badge because he was suffering from malaria. The good news is that Herbert's papers do survive at least in part, and if you would like to pm me your email address I can help there. What his surviving papers won't tell you is that he would have been transferred from 4/3rd City of London to 100th Provisional Battalion in October 1915 and from there attached to 101st Provisional Battalion on 15th January 1916. He was transferred to 2/23rd London on 14th April 1916 and then followed the course that Chris mentioned when 2/23rd went overseas. As to why he didn't get sent overseas earlier with 3rd City of London I think it was because he chose not to sign his Imperial Service Obligation, which allowed a Territorial to serve overseas, until February 1916 when he was with 101st Provisional Bn. Possibly at that late date he had to sign it or face consequences, but I'm not sure about that. Do you have any pictures of Herbert you could share? Best regards, Matthew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westkent78 Posted 18 February , 2015 Author Share Posted 18 February , 2015 Matthew, Recently being doing a bit of work on the B/2***** series of numbers in the Rifle Brigade were a few 1/23rd Londons appear and would appreciate a little of your knowledge on the battalion. Quite a few were 1/23rd and on arrival overseas were transferred to 1/21st Londons on 11/10/16, followed by a transfer on the 5/11/6 to The Rifle Brigade having been allocated numbers to the 21st, these are all mainly in October 1916. Wondered if you had anything on Arthur and would a list of the men from the 23rd Londons transferred into the 21st Londons on arrival in France be of use to you?? Andy Hello Andy, Always interested in any lists I can get my hands on, so yes please. And any B/2***** series RB men from 23rd Londons too. Thanks. Looks like a Base grab of a draft. I think by this stage 3/23rd and 3/21st were operating together as draft finding units for both 21st and 23rd overseas, but I'd have to check. I'm actually a bit surprised that Branson didn't make it back to 1/23rd given the losses in September and October 1916, but I suppose 1/21st had suffered equally- not that he even made it off Base before the RB came calling! I assume you have his papers, so I wonder what that entry is on 5/11/16 just above his transfer to 9th RB. It's a London Regt entry on 5/11/16, almost looks like 17 R, but perhaps it's just an authority to leave the Londons? A bit of a puzzle as to why he went to UK in Feb 1916. Your guess seems plausible as it was a relatively quiet time, although if 1/23rd had sent him off on a course to the UK you'd expect they'd want him back with his newfound experience. I wonder if his pre-war occupation had anything to do with it, or it was more likely to be sickness and then he got sent to the Armoury on his recovery? Good to hear from you again, Matthew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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