23rd (County of London) Battalion, the London Regiment

[dsms]

Is the Silver War Badge numbered B262232? If so, it's his father's- also a J.H.Dawkins, who enlisted in the RWK 26/10/14 as NR/3697 but was discharged 9/11/14 due to sickness.

Matthew

Sorry its taken so long to get back to you have only been able to get to see the Silver War Badge again today. Yes indeed the number on the reverse is B262232. The person on whos behalf I was seeking the info is over the moon to have got this additional information.

Thank you again for your assistance in this

Dave

[rfndave]

Hi westkent78,

would you have any info on 'Henry harry Morgan, 4190/701390 23rd LR'

I am interested when he joined and the different numbers and when they changed. He is my cousins relative from his mothers side.

I cannot locate any service records on ancestry only his MIC.

Any help would be great

Dave

[westkent78]

Hello Dave,

Sorry for the delayed reply, but you caught me on holiday.

I see from the other thread that you have his death tracked down. I can't add too much more as I haven't been able to find his service records either. It looks like he joined in May 1915, probably around the 25th. He went to France on 2nd January 1916 but probably didn't make it to 1/23rd until 7th February 1916. I have yet to pin down the exact day he was renumbered to the six digit number but the battalion seems to have been renumbered in Jan-Mar 1917.

Hope this helps,

Best regards,

Matthew

[rfndave]

Hi Mathew,

Thank you very much for your help, all info gratefully received.

Regards Dave

[paul802d]

Hi all,

I've been reading up on the 23rd London Regiment, with a specific interest in the Battle of Festubert.

I've read:

• 1915 Campaign in France, The Battles of Aubers Ridge, Festubert and Loos by A Kearsey
• 47th (LONDON) DIVISION 1914-1919 by Alan H Maude
• The new post office rifles book 'Men of letters'
• 1/23 and 1/24 War diaries

I'm a hit at dinner parties now, me.

Thought I'd get the collective wisdom of the Great War Forum who have done me proud in the past. Any recommendations for further reading that covers the 1/23 and/or Festubert?

While I've got you... anything you would consider a classic read that gives a real feel for the job of a L/Cpl on the Western Front?

Best

Paul

[Simon_Fielding]

My wife's grandfather was wounded at Festubert and we have a few pages of memoir PM me if you'd like a copy.

Cheers

Simon NB the OH is worth a look...

[Simon_Fielding]

Thought I might as well post them for general consumption!

Intro - 1 - think this was dictated c. 1969

Next page - another 'intro'

next page

[Simon_Fielding]

and again

[Simon_Fielding]

The speaker / writer is Stanley Adams Houghton 1895 - 1985 b. Rayleigh, Essex.

The photograph is labelled on reverse “Reading from left to right - / Myself / Dick Lee / Bellfield / Bill Richley” The studio is ‘Birdsey St Albans’ which should be right for the 47th Div

Richard Lee 24th Londons 2319 enlisted 31st August 1914; discharged sick 11th July 1916

.

I presume ‘Bellfield’ is Harold Bellfield 23rd Londons number 2406, discharged wounded 28th April 1916.

Given the description in the written account Bill Richley must be William Patrick Richley 2861: the CWGC has him as ‘A’ Coy.

RICHLEY, WILLIAM PATRICK Initials: W P Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Private Regiment/Service: London Regiment Unit Text: "A" Coy. 1st/23rd Bn. Age: 23 Date of Death: 26/05/1915 Service No: 2861 Additional information: Brother of J. B. Richley, of 54, Cromford Rd., Wandsworth, London. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: Panels 45 & 46.

Stan returned to the Front with a commission in the Labour Corps, survived the war, and had a very long and happy life.

[westkent78]

Simon,

Thanks for posting all these on the thread. I know you'd already sent them to me but it's great to see them again.

I think we still need to look for a "Dick Lee" candidate as the Richard Lee you have suggested is 24th London, was never in 23rd London in 1914, and never made it overseas. Also "Dick Lee's" picture shows a 23rd London badge. In 1911 Richard Lee of the 24th, is a Tinman and wireworker, but Stanley mentions his "Dick" was in the wholesale grocery trade- possibly he changed trades in the intervening years but it seems a bit of a jump.

I wonder if the D could be a V in the writing on the back of the photo or he's misremembering/ the transcriber misheard, as I can place a 2930 Victor (Vick?) Lee in Stanley's platoon in A Company, along with all the other men mentioned. He joined up in the same couple of days as the rest of the friends, and was wounded at Festubert along with the rest of them. I have yet to find a Richard/Dick Lee who served in 23rd London, so either he never made it overseas or transferred out, but the implication from the memoir is that he was there at Festubert.

I guess we'll never know conclusively, but it's something to think about.

Best regards,

Matthew

[westkent78]

Hi all,

I've been reading up on the 23rd London Regiment, with a specific interest in the Battle of Festubert.

I've read:

• 1915 Campaign in France, The Battles of Aubers Ridge, Festubert and Loos by A Kearsey
• 47th (LONDON) DIVISION 1914-1919 by Alan H Maude
• The new post office rifles book 'Men of letters'
• 1/23 and 1/24 War diaries

I'm a hit at dinner parties now, me.

Best

Paul

Paul,

Glad to hear you're having fun.

The Official History of the 23rd is something you should read as it gives a good account of the training in the UK before they went overseas. I'd also recommend looking at 142nd Brigade War diary, which you can now download, as well as the 1/22nd London diary. 21st London's War Record would also be interesting for you to look at as then you'll have the entire brigade's perspective.

Regarding the life of a lance corporal on the Western Front, I'd suggest starting your own topic on that as you'll hopefully get more response that way- not my area I'm afraid.

Best regards,

Matthew

[MandyMoo]

Hi, I have two relatives Herbert Francis Winn, regiment number 1939. who served with 23rd Battalion London Regiment, ( Royal Fusiliers ).

Also John William Whiteing 6768,703054. when searching for military records for John William Whiteing, it gets a bit confusing as some times the name is reversed ( William John Whiteing) I am just wondering would this be right as I do not want to connect the wrong military to him.

Any info you can share or if you can point me in the right direction for research would be very much appreciated

many thanks

[westkent78]

Hello Mandy,

Thanks for getting in touch. I'll have a look over the weekend.

I have Herbert Francis Winn with service numbers 5147 & 701983 in the 23rd London. Looks like he originally enlisted with the 3rd City of London (Royal Fusiliers) as number 1939 and was transferred into the 23rd Londons.

Also, please can you confirm that it's Whiteing and not Whiting. I've got some information probably incorrect, that it may be the latter, but it seems like his name gets confused all over the place. He was POW in April 1918 (as William John!).

Best regards,

Matthew

[MandyMoo]

Hello Matthew,

Thank you for your reply.

I can comfirm the name is Whiteing. John William Whiteing married my Grt Grandmother after my Grt Grandfather Frederick John Winn died in The Great War.

I also have Edgar Augustus Langford who was with London Regiment, London Regiment, Queen's Own (Royal West Kent) Regiment

Regimental Number:

554958, 648092, G/41902

Regards

Mandy

[paul802d]

Paul,

Glad to hear you're having fun.

The Official History of the 23rd is something you should read as it gives a good account of the training in the UK before they went overseas. I'd also recommend looking at 142nd Brigade War diary, which you can now download, as well as the 1/22nd London diary. 21st London's War Record would also be interesting for you to look at as then you'll have the entire brigade's perspective.

Regarding the life of a lance corporal on the Western Front, I'd suggest starting your own topic on that as you'll hopefully get more response that way- not my area I'm afraid.

Best regards,

Matthew

My wife's grandfather was wounded at Festubert and we have a few pages of memoir PM me if you'd like a copy.

Cheers

Simon NB the OH is worth a look...

Thanks gents, much appreciated. Plenty to keep me occupied there.

[Genes Project]

Hi Matthew - Great thread. Haven't had the time yet to read all the 300+ posts, so apologies if some of my info is repeated. But first, here's my guy...

Albert Henderson Sheward, 3826 and 701193, enlisted 6 May 1915 3/23rd transferred to 1/23rd 13 Aug 1916, appointed Sergeant 1 Dec 1915, a rank he held for the rest of the war. Wounded in right upper arm 2 Oct 1916 at the Battle of le Transloy on the Somme and later more seriously in the abdomen 28 Mar 1918 at the First Battle of Amman (a wound he carried for the rest of his life and which contributed to his death in November 1943, according to his family.

His service record survives (on Ancestry) and I can pass this on if needed (PM me). I have also remembered him on LOTFWW at https://livesofthefirstworldwar.org/lifestory/4011731.

Now, you may already know that the 3 Nov 1915 issue of the Illustrated War News carried three large group photos (taken after mid July 1915) of the 3/23rd (one each for officers, sergeants and nco's) where each man is identified. I have the photo of the NCOs as it identifies Cpl Sheward, The other photos can often be found on eBay etc. The IWM also has a souvenir album of the 3/23rd (12 pieces) by the same photographer so I am talking with them to see if we can crossmatch them. If you don't know/have this info I can give you a list of all the NCOs involved.

ww1photos.com has a copy of this photo (small charge) and a list of other members of the 23rd where photos exist (free index - http://www.ww1photos.com/London23rd.html) so it might be worth checking that.

Hope that helps!

Colin

[Genes Project]

Ahhh... just realised i've missed out the rather important bit of how and where he moved about!

As above, enlisted in the 3/23rd and transferred to the 1/23rd 13 Aug 1916.

He is attached to the T.F. Dep (?) of 1/23rd 4 Oct 1916.

Attached to Com.Depot Seaford (?) 16 Nov 1916.

Posted to 21st London 6 Dec 1916.

Posted to 2/21st London 24 Jan 1917.

Attached back to the T.F. Depot (?) of the 23rd 15 May 1918.

Posted to the 21st London Reserve Battalion 8 July 1918

21st London Reserve Battalion "Absorbed in the Establishment" 11 July 1918

Attached to the Lond. Dist. Comd. Depot 17 Nov 1918

As you can see, I haven't got a total handle on what exactly he did yet, but getting there slowly!

[Genes Project]

T.F. Depot is, of course, 'Territorial Force Depot' and Com. Depot is 'Command Depot' but what exactly he was doing there and what the difference was is a bit hazy.

[Genes Project]

Nothing to do with me but from a 2001 Rootsweb post:

>trying to find information on a Private 29443 Ambrose Ewart HILTON of
>the East Surrey Regiment posted to 1st/23rd Bt., London Regiment who died
>22nd August 1918. Commemorated at Vis-en-Artois Memorial.

[Genes Project]

And another one from Rootsweb (various bits of the family have trench poems etc handed down): Edward Jenner Morris killed on 15th June 1918, 2691 and 700590 http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=405008.0

[Genes Project]

And I don't know if you've read a fantastic account of a medical orderly in 2/23rd - L/Cpl George William Parker MM.

http://www.wartimememoriesproject.com/greatwar/allied/view.php?uid=211109

[Guest braind7]

Hi Matthew

I'm new to the forum...and firstly may I compliment you on a great job!

I'm looking for more info about my grandfather John Frederick SHACKLEY from Liverpool

Private 702306 who transferred from the Lancashires to the 23rd on 30/5/1916

His service records show he disembarked at Le Havre on 26/6/16

and was wounded... 'Fracture Lt Humerus Compound' in the 'Field' on 10/8/16,

was removed to Etaples on 16/8/16 then back to England on 20/9/16 until medically discharged on 11/8/17.

We understand he was a medic/stretcher bearer but have nothing to confirm this.

As kids we remember he had a finger missing on his left hand, but he never spoke of the war and we were

not aware of his bigger injury until we got his records recently.

Would like to know more please on whereabouts he served, and what happened around the time of his injury,

and anything from the battalion war diary that relates.

Is there a link to the war diary?

thank you.. very much appreciated

Brian Davies

[Pat Atkins]

Don't know how I missed this until now, but belated thanks to Simon for posting Stan Houghton's memoirs; poignant stuff, and helps flesh out the bare bones of my own interest re 25th/26th May 1915 and the 23rd Londons. Also a nod of appreciation to Westkent78 again for a great thread.

Cheers, Pat

[Simon_Fielding]

Don't know how I missed this until now, but belated thanks to Simon for posting Stan Houghton's memoirs; poignant stuff, and helps flesh out the bare bones of my own interest re 25th/26th May 1915 and the 23rd Londons. Also a nod of appreciation to Westkent78 again for a great thread.

Cheers, Pat

You're very welcome Pat - there is another portrait of SAH that belongs to my brother in law which I will try and copy. What's your connection to the 23rd? This is a great thread - very friendly!

[westkent78]

Thanks all for contributing.

Colin, apologies for not responding in September. Somehow I missed that you'd been posting. I was aware of most of the information on photos that you posted, my grandfather is in one of them, but Parker MM's account was new to me, so thank you very much. Did you get anywhere with the IWM photo album?

Simon, please post that other picture of SAH if you do get a copy.

Brian,

Welcome to the forum, and thanks for posting the picture of your grandfather.

I've seen his paperwork online, but it looks like he joined the RAMC and then transferred to 2/23rd London just before they went overseas. Do you have other paperwork that shows him in the Lancashires? Make sure you read Pte Parker's account as he might have been one of your grandfather's contemporaries as a stretcher bearer. It's hard to say though as 2/23rd were topped up by a large influx of RAMC men re-rolled as infantry to make up the numbers just before they went overseas in June 1916, so your grandfather may have been an infantryman with 2/23rd. He is part of an interesting development in the history of the regiment as this was the first occasion when a large number of men from outside London had joined en masse. It must have been quite a change with a sudden large influx of men from the Northwest into a predominantly London battalion, and they didn't have much time to get assimilated or used to being infantrymen!

Another interesting thing I've noticed from his paperwork is that although he was transferred to 2/23rd on 30th May, he didn't have to sign approval of the 'voluntary' transfer until 11th June.

As to the war diary, http://qrrarchive.websds.net/menu1.aspx?li=1 and go via the East Surrey link to the scans of 2/23rd's diary which gives you more detail on his wounding than looking at the official history would.

Best regards,

Matthew