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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

23rd (County of London) Battalion, the London Regiment


westkent78

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Hello Matthew,

Many thanks for that information. I'll scan the photo over the next few days and I'll try to work out how to attach it here. Or can I PM it to you as well?

Alan

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Here's the photograph of Edward Horace Shepherd of the 23rd (County of London) Battalion. In the original you can see he has a small drum badge on his left sleeve. The embossed text on the front says 'Riccardo Studio, London and St Albans'. An inscription on the back says 'Drmr E H Shepherd, St Albans, March 1915'. If anyone would like a higher resolution copy, let me know and I'll e-mail it to you.

post-53243-1266447557.jpg

I've done a bit of digging on Ancestry about this man, and he was 24 when he attested. My grandfather would have been 17 at that time, so there is a possibility that they knew each other or were friends.

Alan

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  • 2 weeks later...
Guest Janetv99

My uncle Harold John Palfery born 1893 (spelled incorrectly as Palfrey in the army records) was in the 23rd and 24th London Regiment, battalion number 5487. Later he was in the East Surrey Regiment # 46025. I would really appreciate knowing what exactly they did in the war in these battalions, or any other info on them would be appreciated.

Thank you,

Jan

Ontario, Canada

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Hello Jan,

Can't tell you too much about him I'm afraid, but I think that he probably served in 2/23rd London Regiment and went to France on 26th June 1916 and there's a good chance he stayed with them all through their tour in Salonika and into their time in Egypt in 1917 and 1918. From his number it appears that he joined 23rd London in June 1916, so he must have been transferred from another regiment in England and was in a draft to build up 2/23rd before they went overseas. There is a strong possibility that he originally joined the RAMC, as that is the origin of many of the men around him. I assume he was from Camberwell originally?

Sorry I can't be more help but I haven't got round to looking at the East Surrey medal rolls to see if they are as detailed as the London regiment's.

Best regards,

Matthew

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hello-

I'm looking for information on my grandfather. Henry Sydney Markwell #705278. He was with the 23rd and that's about all I know. I live in America and my access to information is very limited. Any help would be appreciated.

Rachel

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Hello-

I'm looking for information on my grandfather. Henry Sydney Markwell #705278. He was with the 23rd and that's about all I know. I live in America and my access to information is very limited. Any help would be appreciated.

Rachel

Hello Rachel,

I don't have too much on your grandfather, but can say that he was one of the 18-19 year olds drafted into the regiment in early 1918. Unfortunately I have yet to find any papers that have survived for any of these men in the 705*** range, so I don't have much of an idea when they enlisted. I'm still hoping that they may be in the records that the MOD still holds because so many of these men were serving post warinto mid 1919 at least, but if not then the Germans unfortunately got the lot in the Second World War.

Your grandfather would have been a conscript by this stage of the war I think. It appears that your grandfather entered France on 31st March 1918 and served his entire time with 1/23rd London until he returned to England on 30th January 1919. He probably joined the battalion at the front in a draft of either 156 men or 32 men who were received from base on 8th April 1918 and 14th April respectively.

I don't know if you've found him in the 1911 census but it appears that he was listed as Henry Thomas Markwell, with a brother Sydney, instead of being listed as Henry Sydney Markwell- everything else matches though (residence in Broadstairs, birth in Bromley in 1899).

I hope this has helped shed a little light on his service. Do you have a picture of him in uniform that you could share?

Best regards,

Matthew

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Matthew-

Thank you so much for the information. It helps a lot. My uncle has a box filled with various papers, and I know there is information in there. I know my grandfather was gassed in the war, and at one point I saw paperwork on it. I also know he had a belt he took off of a German soldier, and he used it to sharpen his razor. If I ever get a picture of him in uniform I will pass it along.

Thank you again for the help.

Rachel

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Rachel,

It would be interesting to hear what is in that paperwork too and when he was gassed.

Best regards,

Matthew

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Some of you may be aware of this, but for those who aren't, I am compiling a database of all the men who joined the 23rd Londons in the Great War.

I currently have over 3,000 individuals identified and my nominal roll continues to grow each month, but there is definitely a long way to go.

Any information, however insignificant it may seem, is gratefully received.

If you are researching another regiment and come across someone who served for a period in the 23rd Londons I like to hear from you with any details you care to share.

I am also in a position to undertake look-ups in the war diary, regimental history and 47th Division History.

Matthew

Mathew,

I have BWM. and VM. for a Private 6932 Frederick Evans 23rd London. He also has the No 703188 also shown as 23rd Lond. went overseas 01.01.1916

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Mathew,

I have BWM. and VM. for a Private 6932 Frederick Evans 23rd London. He also has the No 703188 also shown as 23rd Lond. went overseas 01.01.1916

Thanks for the information Tony.

The medal roll actually shows that he went overseas 1st September 1916. He was part of a large draft of men transferred from 2/5th Queen's who were sent to join 1/23rd London on 1st September. They didn't make it to the front until 22nd September and were used as replacements for the men lost on 16th September at High Wood, it appears their first action was the attack on 2nd October. I have him returning to England on 26th January 1919.

Hope this helps,

Matthew

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  • 3 weeks later...

Here is another for your database:

2276 / 700414 Sidney Edward BLACKWELL.

Died 06 06 1917. Buried Lijssenthoek Military Cemetery.

Son of Joseph and Mary Blackwell of Camberwell, London; husband of Florence Mabel Blackwell of 50 Regency St, Westminster.

Hopefully you may have other details on him?

Phil

(Always buying medals, groups, broken groups, death plaques etc to the family name 'BLACKWELL')

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Here is another for your database:

2276 / 700414 Sidney Edward BLACKWELL.

Died 06 06 1917. Buried Lijssenthoek Military Cemetery.

Son of Joseph and Mary Blackwell of Camberwell, London; husband of Florence Mabel Blackwell of 50 Regency St, Westminster.

Hopefully you may have other details on him?

Phil

(Always buying medals, groups, broken groups, death plaques etc to the family name 'BLACKWELL')

Hello Phil,

Sidney Blackwell's service papers have survived and are available on Ancestry. He attested for the 23rd London on 26th August 1914 and was one of the originals who went overseas with 1/23rd on 15th March 1915. He served with them for the next two years until he received a gunshot wound to the abdomen on 6th June 1917, from which he succumbed later that day at 10th CCS.

Best regards,

Matthew

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Hi Matthew,

Many thanks for the information. Looks like a good excuse to join Ancestry!

Phil

Hello Phil,

Sidney Blackwell's service papers have survived and are available on Ancestry. He attested for the 23rd London on 26th August 1914 and was one of the originals who went overseas with 1/23rd on 15th March 1915. He served with them for the next two years until he received a gunshot wound to the abdomen on 6th June 1917, from which he succumbed later that day at 10th CCS.

Best regards,

Matthew

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  • 1 month later...

You may well have details of these chaps already but just in case...

Private LESLIE WALLACE AYLING was killed in action on 7 December 1917, aged 24 while serving as a Lewis gunner with ‘D’ company, 1/23rd battalion London Regiment . He is remembered on the Cambrai Memorial at Louverval and on the war memorials at Lindfield and the church of St Andrew, Catford. He was the son of William and Rose Ayling of 31, Minard Rd., Catford and husband of Elizabeth Ayling of Spring Cottages, Lyoth Lane, Lindfield, Sussex. His brother Cecil died on 7 June 1917 while serving with the 7th Londons.

Private 718323 FREDERICK WILLIAM BALLARD was killed in action on 22 August 1918. He was originally posted to the 15th Londons (Post Office Rifles) but on 24 April 1918 he was transferred to the Queens. He is remembered on the Vis-en-Artois memorial and on the Sydenham South Suburban Gas Works war memorial. He was born on 17 February 1899, the son of Frederick and Minnie Ballard of 9 Elderton Road, Sydenham. He was attested at Lewisham on 6 January 1917 at the age of 17 years and ten months and gave his occupation as clerk at the South Suburban Gas Company.

Private REUBEN JAMES COULTHARD of 23rd (County of London) battalion London Regiment was killed on 3 September 1918, aged 23. He is buried in Westoutre British Cemetery, near Ypres and remembered in the war memorial book at the Catford Cycling Club.

He was the son of Charles and Lilian Coulthard.

Private 2779 STANLEY HORACE GROCOCK died on 5 November 1915 in Lewisham Military Hospital. He had been repatriated from France on 8 October 1915 with a gunshot wound to his thigh. He is buried in Ladywell cemetery, where his name is recorded on the screen wall. His name also appears on the memorial at University Hospital Lewisham. He was the son of Horace and Adeline Grocock of 6, Grasmere Rd., South Norwood. He enlisted in Clapham in September 1914 at the age of 19.

Private FREDERICK ARTHUR WADMAN of 1/23rd (County of London) Battalion London Regiment died on 26 May 1915, aged 21. He is remembered on the Le Touret Memorial and on the memorials at Addey and Stanhope School, Deptford and the church of St Catherine, Hatcham. He was the son of William and Therese Wadman, of 71 Jerningham Rd., New Cross. He was employed in the Public Trustee's Office.

Andy

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Thanks Andy,

I had some of their details, but quite a bit was new to me.

What's your interest in all these men?

Best regards,

Matthew

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Hi

They all have a connection with the borough of Lewisham and are on memorials there.

I've just come across another :

Private DOUGLAS WATERLAND of 1/23rd died on 26 May 1915, aged 24. He is remembered on the Le Touret Memorial and on the war memorial at Goldsmith’s College, New Cross. He was the son of Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Waterland, of "Glenmuir", 4, Brussels Road, Wandsworth. He was educated at Battersea Polytechnic School and Goldsmith’s College and went on to be a teacher with the London County Council.

Andy

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  • 1 month later...
Guest aliswebmail@yahoo.co.uk
Hello Alison,

Welcome to the forum.

Thanks for the details on William.

It's very hard to determine when he might have been gassed considering the length of time he served, but one possibility might be December 1917 when the battalion was in Bourlon Wood and suffered quite severely from gas, which might tie in with him being in England in January 1918 to get married as he recuperated. Realistically I don't think we're going to know unless his papers turn up or you discover a letter or army form mentioning it.

Richard Henry was also in the 23rd London, though I'm not sure which battalion he was serving in at this point and he may have been attached from/to 21st London as he has a 21st London number, 654274. He entered France & Flanders 1st October 1918 and returned home 8th October 1919.

Hope this helps,

Matthew

Hello again, I now have William Mumford's DCM citation:

W_MUMFORD_DCM_CITATION.pdf

By chance, I saw a recent magazine article, the website Military-Genealogy.com now has DCM citations online, incase you didn't know. I was delighted and very proud to see the citation.

I can't seem to get into the war diaries, I get to the year / month page but the years are gobbledegook and nothing opens up - any idea?

Regards

Alison

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hi Matthew,

A man I'm researching was killed while serving with the 1/23rd Londons. His name was Charles Horatio FOOTE; I've just posted a thread on him HERE.

He seems to have served in the 3/7th Londons, then 100th Provisional Co, he was discharged and re-enlisted in the Rifle Bde, then 17th (Reserve) Londons, 1/17th Londons, East Surreys and 1/23rd Londons. He was killed in action on 16th June 1918.

I hope it's of some interest to you. I wonder if you have anything on him, or the action in which he was killed. I have CWGC details but not SDGW. Any thoughts on his regimental number (29404), or on his postings just prior to joining the battalion?

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Hi Matthew,

A man I'm researching was killed while serving with the 1/23rd Londons. His name was Charles Horatio FOOTE; I've just posted a thread on him HERE.

He seems to have served in the 3/7th Londons, then 100th Provisional Co, he was discharged and re-enlisted in the Rifle Bde, then 17th (Reserve) Londons, 1/17th Londons, East Surreys and 1/23rd Londons. He was killed in action on 16th June 1918.

I hope it's of some interest to you. I wonder if you have anything on him, or the action in which he was killed. I have CWGC details but not SDGW. Any thoughts on his regimental number (29404), or on his postings just prior to joining the battalion?

Can't tell you much as he's on the East Surrey's medal rolls and I haven't got them yet. But he appears to be in a batch of men who transferred from 1/17th Londons in May 1918. I'd guess that they were just numbered in the East Surreys but were sent direct to 1/23rd. Foote is the earliest fatality of the batch. This group transferred in three drafts on 18th May (26), 19th May (21), 25th May (5) with 16 more remaining with Division. The battalion were in the Left Sub Sector at Albert when he was killed, suffering 3 killed on 16th June.

Most of these men were 19 years old so he would have stuck out amongst them. Perhaps his stuttering had improved since 1916/17, or at least was no longer considered an impediment to service given the relaxed recruitment requirements in 1917/18.

Best regards,

Matthew

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Hi Matthew,

Thanks very much for that. Very much appreciated. Yes, I know that recruitment standards were much more relaxed as time went on, I'm assuming that training standards were too because it's hard to imagine him making it through a tough training course, based on the earlier assesments of his physique. It makes me wonder who got left at home.

Do the other E Surrey men all have similar numbers? I would have assumed that it would date from much earlier period than early to mid-1918.

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Hi Matthew,

Thanks very much for that. Very much appreciated. Yes, I know that recruitment standards were much more relaxed as time went on, I'm assuming that training standards were too because it's hard to imagine him making it through a tough training course, based on the earlier assesments of his physique. It makes me wonder who got left at home.

Do the other E Surrey men all have similar numbers? I would have assumed that it would date from much earlier period than early to mid-1918.

The 17 I've identified so far are roughly in a block starting at 29398 and ending with 29445. I don't know enough about ESR numbering but I can see where there are certain batches of numbers who seem to get allocated to 23rd London. What I wonder is if the rest of the early 294** men who are only listed on MICs as East Surrey were actually serving with 1/23rd but it wasn't recorded on the MIC. Perhaps the medal rolls will reveal some clues?

The chances of them being an earlier transfer and coming through March & April with not a single casualty given the rough shape 1/23rd was in at the beginning of May are fairly remote. The war diary specifically mentions the transfers coming from 1/17th London directly. I suppose they could have been renumbered at East Surreys earlier whilst serving with 1/17th.

Matthew

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Yes, I think your theory about the E Surrey numbers actually being London Regt numbers makes sense. I've certainly come across at least one other man who arrived in France, was posted to an IBD as an E Surrey without actually being posted to an ESR battalion, and from there was posted to a Lond R battalion (though I can't remember which, maybe it was the 23rd? I have his medals just can't remember his name, will have a look when I get home). I'm certain that his number was the same for both regiments. So the E Surrey aspect seems to have been a purely 'administrative' posting, he didn't appear to have ever been on the strength of the regt.

Will let you know if I uncover any further details.

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Hi Matthew

I am researching my Great Grandfather who joined the London Regiment and have found out quite a lot, however, I have hit a wall and would like some assitance please.

His Medal card shows Private number 57268, London Regiment ( reg number G/88158 ) and the transfferred to the Labour Corps of the ASC (REG number 374954 ) Unit 368 POW.

I know that he was originally in France but do not know where and when and then was a guard at a POW camp, again i don't know where.

At the end of the war he re enlisted and was part of the North Russian Relief force again with the ASC ( Reg number 19998) unit 10 mob coy MT RASC. He left for Russia on 16.08.19 and arrived 24.08.19 and left Russia for the uk on 30.09.19, from my research this seems to indicate that he would have been in Murmansk rather than Archangel?

He then re enlisted again with the ASC ( Reg number 47656 ) Unit 5 coy. And was sent to the Plebiboite area of France ? He then was moved to the Rhine Forces Y.R.P in 1920.

Many thanks

Neil.

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Neil,

I'm afraid that I don't know anything about 1st Londons, who your great grandfather served with [assuming he's Arthur W.H.Brimson]. But looking at his medal index card it would appear that he wasn't in France prior to January 1917 as he doesn't have a 4 digit territorial number, and if I had to guess his 1st Londons number might indicate a 1918 entry. Your best bet would be to start a couple of separate threads asking about 1st Londons (in particular when that number was issued) 368 POW Company Labour Corps and the ASC in Russia, and people more knowledgeable than me on these particular areas should be able to help.

Sorry I can't be more help. Good luck.

Matthew

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