23rd (County of London) Battalion, the London Regiment

[Simon_Fielding]

Amazing leads - thank you Steve!

[Simon_Fielding]

I'm belatedly following up individuals mentioned in my wife's grandfather's 5 page memoir written in 1969.I posted it in post #307 and I'm trying to put together an illustrated document describing his service.. . He was Stanley Adams Houghton and her served in the 23rd Londons and most of it describes the attack at Givenchy on the night of the 25/6 May 1915.

He says:

“I was very thankful to find our Platoon Sergeant Cameron got across safely. He was a real old Territorial and he always had a fatherly feeling for us all. I remember quickly filling a sandbag and placing it on the parapet in front of him for protection, but before I had time to place another bag in position a German sniper spotted the new bag and the bullet went through the Sergeant’s head.”

Is it possible Stan was recalling a head wound ? Sgt Cameron here - Stephen Henry Cameron 1870-1934 seems to fit the bill, and his service with the 23rd ends on the 26/5/15....

A great picture via a relative shows Cameron with his wife Ellen Harvey and son Stephen William 1895 - 1974 who served 21st Londons and RAF.

[Simon_Fielding]

Close up and Cameron post war:

[clk]

Hi Simon_F,

I suspect that you may already have seen them, but there are a few maps tucked away as appendices to the Divisional HQ diary for May 1915 http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/60779/43112_2706_0-00000/?backlabel=ReturnBrowsing#?imageId=43112_2697_0-00943

Regards

Chris

[westkent78]

Simon F,

Great photo.

You have the right Serjeant Cameron for Houghton's Sjt, at least in the medal rolls.

2110 Sjt Stephen Cameron was the only Cameron in the 'originals' and was in A Company like Howie. Makes sense that he gets wounded in 1915 and then has to transfer for garrison duty with 25th RB, although I'm surprised 3/23rd didn't try and keep him for training purposes. I'm also mildly surprised that his medal roll entry ends on 26/05/15 as usually only the KIAs or POWs do that, the WIAs dates usually reflect their trip back to base hospitals before crossing to UK so I'd expect a date around 28th or later, especially as it's a head wound. Perhaps the RB did things differently on their rolls and the moment you became ineffective was the date of exit from a theatre.

Now we come to the 'problem'.

Cameron in the photo is definitely 23rd London, and appears to be a long service man via his ribbon. Any chance that you can blow up his ribbons a bit more, as I think there might be a Queen's South Africa ribbon there too? I've found the papers for 3916 & 191 Colour Serjeant Stephen Henry Cameron of 4th East Surrey Vols and 23rd London who was awarded both those medals and was married to Ellen. I'm confident it's the man in the photo. He's present in all the musters through 1913 and fits the bill for Houghton's Cameron, but his papers make no mention of what he's doing in 1914 or later, or a re-numbering to 2110.

2110 would have attested on 12th August 1914, so I could see where Cameron may have got out between Summer 1913 and July 1914 and then rejoined on the outbreak of war, and been quickly promoted back to Serjeant. It would seem that the Authorities didn't marry up his pre-war service file with his war service one and as the war service file was likely filed in the Rifle Brigade section it may have gone up in smoke in WW2.

All a bit of a long winded way of saying, I think you have your man! And what a man- 3rd Bn Royal Highlanders, 69th Company Imperial Yeomanry (18th Bn), 4th V.B. East Surreys, 1/23rd London and 25th Rifle Brigade. Definitely one of the more experience pre-war Territorials in the Regiment. I'm very glad you posted his photo.

Best regards,

Matthew

[Simon_Fielding]

Great post Matthew - thanks. I wish I could tell Stan that his fatherly sergeant made it after all!

[Simon_Fielding]

Really helpful thanks Chris!

Hi Simon_F,

I suspect that you may already have seen them, but there are a few maps tucked away as appendices to the Divisional HQ diary for May 1915 http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/60779/43112_2706_0-00000/?backlabel=ReturnBrowsing#?imageId=43112_2697_0-00943

Regards

Chris

[westkent78]

Simon F,

Re Rowley. I have a few mentions of him in the war diary (only transcribed upto mid 1917 so far).

He returned from hospital on 12th Oct 1916, so if it refers to a wound, I'd assume he was wounded on the Somme (but probably not on 16th-18th September as I've worked hard on finding those officers). He then gets a mention as returning from hospital 30th March 1917, and finally is mentioned as taking over A Company on 2nd April 1917.

That's it so far.

Matthew

[Simon_Fielding]

Thanks Matthew.

Nice obituary of his brother Walter here

http://www.keble.ox.ac.uk/about/past/keble-and-the-great-war/roll-of-honour-1914-1918/second-lieutenant-walter-austin-rowley-1911

[westkent78]

Chris and Simon,

Re William Oliver. Great write up on him Chris. One additional point is that he may have been assigned to 1/23rd from 1st September, and that's the day he crossed to France, but he only made it to the front and the battalion on 22nd September 1916, as part of a draft of 306 men mainly from 2/5th Queen's. The higher authorities were obviously already planning for high casualties before 1/23rd made it to the Somme and had them in the pipeline to rebuild it after the losses of 16th-18th September.

Best regards,

Matthew

[clk]

Matthew,

Thank you for the additional information. Very much appreciated.

Regards

Chris

[Guest englishbob]

Hello, I have specifically joined this site to share the following details, forgive me for slow or late replies as I will probably be an infrequent visitor.

I hope I have placed them in the correct thread and manner. Yesterday I did take the time to trawl through every page but could not find this fellow listed here, unless I had been mistaken.

He was a Cousin to my Grandfather. One of quite a few relatives that I have found to have either served and died or survived WW1, while I have been researching.

Arthur John James BOTT 23^rd London Regiment. Pte.2407 Medal card states KIA 26/5/15

Born Portsmouth 1894, residing in Tooting, London 1911

If I can supply or receive any further relevant information I will be pleased.

Best regards,

Bob

[pagius]

QUOTE (debby @ Sep 27 2007, 07:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hello Matthew, I'm new to this but would appreciate a look up. I started off just wanting to find out where my grandad was injured and now I'm trying to find out every detail of his experience. My grandad was with the 3rd city of london battalion which was transferred to the 47th division on 16 november 1915 until the 9th february 1916 if you are able to give me any details of their actions during this time I'de appreciate it. Regards Debbie

Hello Debbie,

I don't know much about the 3rd Londons and they aren't mentioned in 47th Division's history, but luckily there are a few mentions in 1/23rd London's war diary as 3rd London was attached to them from 16th December 1915. The 3rd had suffered such severe casualties that they were attached as an additional company while they recuperated. The 23rd were alternating between the trenches and reserve areas around Loos.

If you pm me your email address I'll send you what I have.

Best regards,

Matthew

Thanks Mick. That's a great help.

I've pm'd you.

Best regards,

Matthew

Just doing a bit of research on the 23rds and came across this post. It was actually 19th December and just two companies of the 1/3rds assigned to the 23rds. My great-uncle Capt Arthur Agius was in charge of them. Mentioned in the 1/3rds War Diary by name and also in his letters home to his fiancee which I have.

[westkent78]

Hello Pagius,

Thanks for the insight into 1/3rd London.

1/23rd's diary does indicate 16th and as they all went into the Front Line on 19th (including 3rd London attachment) it would seem to me more likely that they organized prior to going into the line. 139th Bde diary mentions the transfer on 16th too with 1/3rd 'leaving for IV Corps" on that date. Haven't checked the other Brigade/Division diaries. I think the difference may be when they got word of the attachment and when they actually arrived.

Do you have a reference for 1/3rd London war diary for their time with 1/23rd?

Do you know if the 2 companies were all that was left of 1/3rd or where the other companies were?

Best regards,

Matthew

[westkent78]

Hello, I have specifically joined this site to share the following details, forgive me for slow or late replies as I will probably be an infrequent visitor.

I hope I have placed them in the correct thread and manner. Yesterday I did take the time to trawl through every page but could not find this fellow listed here, unless I had been mistaken.

He was a Cousin to my Grandfather. One of quite a few relatives that I have found to have either served and died or survived WW1, while I have been researching.

Arthur John James BOTT 23^rd London Regiment. Pte.2407 Medal card states KIA 26/5/15

Born Portsmouth 1894, residing in Tooting, London 1911

If I can supply or receive any further relevant information I will be pleased.

Best regards,

Bob

Bob,

Apologies for not responding sooner. Not much really. He enlisted 2nd Sept 1914 and was in A Company.

Best regards,

Matthew

[pagius]

Hello Pagius,

Thanks for the insight into 1/3rd London.

1/23rd's diary does indicate 16th and as they all went into the Front Line on 19th (including 3rd London attachment) it would seem to me more likely that they organized prior to going into the line. 139th Bde diary mentions the transfer on 16th too with 1/3rd 'leaving for IV Corps" on that date. Haven't checked the other Brigade/Division diaries. I think the difference may be when they got word of the attachment and when they actually arrived.

Do you have a reference for 1/3rd London war diary for their time with 1/23rd?

Do you know if the 2 companies were all that was left of 1/3rd or where the other companies were?

Best regards,

Matthew

Hi Mathew

Yes I see that the 1/23rd diary has 16th Dec Service Coy 3rd Lon Regt attached for duty but the 1/3rd diary has 19th Dec Nos 1 and 2 Coy under Capt Agius attached to 23rd London Regiment and in future will be termed "the service company". At this point the 1/3rds have their own diary which you can find under 47th Division 142nd Infantry Brigade . Starting page 99 in National Archives reference WO-95-2949-0-425 but now available on Ancestry. This was just a temporary arrangement until they 1/3rds were re-assigned to the 56th Division early 1916. The 1/3rd were mainly still intact and Uncle Arthur was more than a little put out by this assignment to the 23rds. We are posting his almost daily letters home on http://www.agiusww1.com/ (Arthur to Dollie letters) . I don't really want to jump the gun (since we are posting his letters 100 years to the day) but on the 19th he writes,,...

I was summoned back to HQ yesterday morning from Vermelles. The CO told me the news. I was to have the company, with Wilcox, Lloyd, Brady, Lewis & Ochs. We were to be attached to the 23^rd Londons, who were coming up to-morrow (that is, to-day).

The CO is mad with anger & in a dangerous mood. He has taken steps at home to make things unhappy for the people responsible. It’s a damned shame & all feel it from the CO downwards. Feeling is very bitter, too bitter for words.

Meanwhile dear I am in command of what’s left of the 3^rd pro tem. Poor old 3^rd’s. It’s hard, dear, awfully hard after all these years. Please God it is only temporary & someone will have to pay! Till then we must just endure.

So keep an eye on our site over the next days to see how things develop! If you have Lynn MacDonald's Death of Innocence and/or Somme you will see many references to Arthur Agius who she interviewed in the 70's. We have a tape of that interview. It is a quite remarkable record of Uncle Arthur talking about events some 50 years before as if they were yesterday.

I've got to know a fair amount about the 1/3rds and 2/3rds now but that's not for this thread which is about the 23rds.

best regards

Peter (Agius)

[westkent78]

Hello Peter,

What a wonderful resource. Thanks for sharing it with us all.

You're so lucky that it was all kept together and he was so diligent in writing. Arthur sounds like quite a character. I'll forgive his dislike of 23rd London and 142nd Bde given the circumstances. Happy to see 1/23rd beat 1/3rd in the football on the 7th.

But seriously, this is exactly what I needed, as I've always wondered about the short stint where 1/3rd were attached and how it was perceived.

Did you miss posting the letter from the 19th Nov 1915 on the site as I see 8th Nov and then 25th Nov when he's returning from leave?

Best regards,

Matthew

[pagius]

Hello Peter,

What a wonderful resource. Thanks for sharing it with us all.

You're so lucky that it was all kept together and he was so diligent in writing. Arthur sounds like quite a character. I'll forgive his dislike of 23rd London and 142nd Bde given the circumstances. Happy to see 1/23rd beat 1/3rd in the football on the 7th.

But seriously, this is exactly what I needed, as I've always wondered about the short stint where 1/3rd were attached and how it was perceived.

Did you miss posting the letter from the 19th Nov 1915 on the site as I see 8th Nov and then 25th Nov when he's returning from leave?

Best regards,

Matthew

Hi Mathew

Thanks for your enthusiastic support! Arthur was home on leave for most of November 1915. The letter of the 19th , which I quoted from, is 19th December so I'll be blogging that in 10 days time. I'm about to re-launch the website in the next couple of days with a rather 'slicker' look thanks to my daughter's artistic input so keep an eye on it. We have a well-connected network of cousins mainly in England and Malta - the 5 brothers now have almost 400 nephews and nieces in 5 generations (living ones now aged 0 to 102!) and many of them are avid followers of the daily post. We did this primarily to bring the WW1 centenary alive for the family but as you can see there's plenty of interest to non-family and I'm gradually filling in details as I do extra research as the days go by. We are planning a big family get together in Oct 2017 to mark the centenary of Uncle Dickie's death at Poelcapelle 26/10/17. (Capt R V J R Agius).

We run an associated secret FB group for the family where we post extra detail on the day's activities and I commented on the day that Arthur would shortly be joining the 23rds who had beaten the 1/3rds at football!

Do get back to me if you need to fill in any more details of the 1/3rds or 2/3rds (whose time-line Long Long Trail hasn't got quite right).

best regards

Peter

[westkent78]

Peter,

December of course! It was early in the morning for me.

Look forward to the upgraded site, although this one looks fine too.

Best regards,

Matthew

[kevvo1962]

On 09/12/2008 at 10:56, geraint said:

Matthew

Thanks for the additional info. That really is the beauty of this forum - information flows both ways!

Regarding Harold Charles Jones. The two letters had extracts printed in the local paper The Denbighshire Free Press a few weeks after his death at Ypres. They printed gobbets as opposed to the full letters. I've transcripted them fully as follows

W Lavender (undoubtedly the same as noted by you)

"There was heavy fighting and heavy shrapnel prior to the attack. At 6.30pm we attacked, our platoon leading. It was not the initial charge that killed him, but what happened later. When we took the first German trench we had to build barricades like lightning, for we were being mown down by machine gun fire and shrapnel from in front, and rifle fire from all over. He, like others, died there."

Capt John Thornhill

"He was popular, gentle and of a kind disposition.... He was buried on the field of battle, close to the place that he fell, with the officers and men of his battalion that fought with him that day."

I believe that the Welsh connection developed in early 1915. The 15th (London Welsh) RWF was traditionally associated with Welshmen living in London. With their embarkation to France, a few others became associated with the London Welsh - including the 23rd London. The fact that he had applied to be gazetted to the 4th RWF (Denbighshires) his local home battalion would indicate a course of action taken by similar middle class lads of Welsh extraction living in London in 1914.

If anything crops up - I'll contact you again - and if you stumble across a connection with RWF (4th) it would be appreciated!

The battalion's title (Welsh) as quoted in the paper "The County of London (Welsh) 23rd Territorials"

Smut the dog sends his regards.

Geraint

 

[kevvo1962]

Hello there,just let you know,that i have just purchased,the said 2508 Pte Harold C.Jones,,,medals,death penny,photo in frame with cap badge,and rather intriguing album,of yet unread,by me anyway,letters and papers of said Harold..if interesting enough will post onsite,yours Kevin.

[Woolybully]

Hi

 

It appears that my Gt Grandfather transferred into the 23rd London during 1918 and then proceeded to Murmansk with them during 1919.

 

Frederick WOOLDRIDGE (BoD 12/6/1898) - 705807, The London Regiment / Transferred to 2/23rd Battalion from the East Surreys, The London Regiment / Discharged 23/3/1922. Also served as 48796, Private, East Surrey Regiment and Army No.6133281 / Regimental No.L/12972 during WWI.

 

Info taken from - East Surrey Regiment Enlistment Register (book 2) (Surrey History Centre Ref: 7791/2/1/2) and MIC.

 

I'd love to see his service record but due to his post-1918 service it should be with the MoD, however following my application they advise they can not locate it - frustrating!

 

Please feel free to add his name (on your verification of course) to your database. Any information you may already have would be gratefully received.

 

Thanks

Woolybully

[ian916]

I am late to this discussion, apologies. 

 

My Grandfather Pvt WE Ramsay 7157 was I believe 8th City London Yeomanry that became 1/23rd London Regiment when he was horse, Bess was taken from him.

 

From what i can deduce he served overseas 22nd September 1916 until he was wounded and hospitalised, critically ill at Hill 60.

 

I have attached a couple of pictures.

[steve fuller]

1 hour ago, ian916 said:

From what i can deduce he served overseas 22nd September 1916 until he was wounded and hospitalised, critically ill at Hill 60.

So he would have gone abroad as a replacement for the battalion's heavy losses in and around High Wood, 15 to 18 September. The entire 47th Division took extremely heavy casualties during the battle.

[ian916]

2 hours ago, steve fuller said:

So he would have gone abroad as a replacement for the battalion's heavy losses in and around High Wood, 15 to 18 September. The entire 47th Division took extremely heavy casualties during the battle.

 

 

I believe so, - he signed up in Finsbury Square 8th November 1915, which I think was shortly after the great “victory” at Gallipoli made the headlines for the regiment that he joined, I have often wondered if that false propaganda contributed to his joining up...

 

Looking at the war diary for 1/23rd whilst he was at Ypres it appears to me that his battalion were not taking part in the worst of what was going on in the area, again I wonder if that was as a result of the battalion being made up of so many new recruits.

 

The day that he was injured 22nd December 1916, 4 died, - Capt AC Trembath and Pvts RE Tuffnel 4577, EW Howard 6084, EJ Crawt 6858. He would rarely speak of his experiences but I understood that a shell caught them (I still have the shrapnel removed from his back). 14 OR were injured.