23rd (County of London) Battalion, the London Regiment

[stiletto_33853]

Hi Matthew,

Think you are right re. the Base grab. I am looking at a certain group of the ex 21st & 23rd Londons that transferred to the RB having first been transferred to the 17th Londons (Territorial battalion of the RB), and then on the same day were transferred to the RB. There are quite a few of 21st London there with the 23rd's being amid that batch. A lot of the 21st London men became POW's in March 1918.

Having spent some time trawling through the records these men were transferred in batches from different battalions, i.e. there are a lot of 6th & 9th Londons and seem to have been taken in an administrative logic i.e. B-200001 to B-200033 were all from the Leicestershire Regiment, B-200034 to B-200070 from the North Staffords, B-200072 to B-200152 the Norfolk Regiment, then the 1/22nd Londons, 8th Londons, Royal West Kents, 1/20th Londons, 1/24th Londons, 1/15th Londons, Bedforshire Regiment, Essex Regiment and so it goes on etc. etc.

We know that the initial group from this prefix series went into the 20th Division RB Battalions (10th, 11th & 12th) after the losses suffered on 3/9/16 at Guillemont.

In the present group I am looking at there appears:-

William Samuel Walker (6385)

Leonard James Burtenshaw (3295)

Horace Edward Willmott (6023) POW

There are some more 23rd Londons in this prefix group and will advise as I come across them, we are just seeing some suprising results digging into this number sequence and the later sequence of 40432 to 59074 where we have men placed in the RB, medalled to the RB although never having served overseas with the RB or territorially attached to the RB, being placed onto the RB books after the war and certainly a lot of men returning from being POW's.

Andy

[MandyMoo]

Amanda,

Thank you so much for posting on my thread. Glad to hear Herbert lived to a good age.

Hopefully you come back and check it again, as Chris has unfortunately missed some very important information.

Herbert Winn originally joined the 3rd City of London ( Royal Fusiliers) on 30th April 1914 as number 1939, ie he was a pre-war Territorial. Not sure why the SWB roll has 5/8/14 as his enlistment date because his papers are quite clear on the April date, possibly the 5th August date is the day he was mobilized as Britain declared war and the clerk dealing with the SWB roll entered the wrong date. He was awarded his Silver War Badge because he was suffering from malaria.

The good news is that Herbert's papers do survive at least in part, and if you would like to pm me your email address I can help there.

What his surviving papers won't tell you is that he would have been transferred from 4/3rd City of London to 100th Provisional Battalion in October 1915 and from there attached to 101st Provisional Battalion on 15th January 1916. He was transferred to 2/23rd London on 14th April 1916 and then followed the course that Chris mentioned when 2/23rd went overseas. As to why he didn't get sent overseas earlier with 3rd City of London I think it was because he chose not to sign his Imperial Service Obligation, which allowed a Territorial to serve overseas, until February 1916 when he was with 101st Provisional Bn. Possibly at that late date he had to sign it or face consequences, but I'm not sure about that.

Do you have any pictures of Herbert you could share?

Best regards,

Matthew

Hello Matthew

Many thanks for your help, I am very grateful for the extra information you have given me. the expertise and knowledge of this forum is great. I love reading it all.

As for photos of Herbert Winn I do not have any, but I am currently researching his descendants hoping to make contact for information and photos of him and my Grt Grandfather Frederick J Winn.

If and when I get any photos I will be happy to share.

I have pm you my email address.

Best Regards

Amanda

[westkent78]

Amanda,

Thanks for the offer. I've responded to you.

And an apology- I was off on my estimate of when he transferred to 100th Provisional Bn- it was 21st June 1915. He transferred much earlier than many of the other men in his draft who made it to 2/23rd.

Best regards,

Matthew

[westkent78]

Hi Matthew,

Think you are right re. the Base grab. I am looking at a certain group of the ex 21st & 23rd Londons that transferred to the RB having first been transferred to the 17th Londons (Territorial battalion of the RB), and then on the same day were transferred to the RB. There are quite a few of 21st London there with the 23rd's being amid that batch. A lot of the 21st London men became POW's in March 1918.

Having spent some time trawling through the records these men were transferred in batches from different battalions, i.e. there are a lot of 6th & 9th Londons and seem to have been taken in an administrative logic i.e. B-200001 to B-200033 were all from the Leicestershire Regiment, B-200034 to B-200070 from the North Staffords, B-200072 to B-200152 the Norfolk Regiment, then the 1/22nd Londons, 8th Londons, Royal West Kents, 1/20th Londons, 1/24th Londons, 1/15th Londons, Bedforshire Regiment, Essex Regiment and so it goes on etc. etc.

We know that the initial group from this prefix series went into the 20th Division RB Battalions (10th, 11th & 12th) after the losses suffered on 3/9/16 at Guillemont.

In the present group I am looking at there appears:-

William Samuel Walker (6385)

Leonard James Burtenshaw (3295)

Horace Edward Willmott (6023) POW

There are some more 23rd Londons in this prefix group and will advise as I come across them, we are just seeing some suprising results digging into this number sequence and the later sequence of 40432 to 59074 where we have men placed in the RB, medalled to the RB although never having served overseas with the RB or territorially attached to the RB, being placed onto the RB books after the war and certainly a lot of men returning from being POW's.

Andy

Hello Andy,

All very interesting. Thanks.

It really was a Base grab then- 21st Bn to 17th Bn to 12th RB all in one day. That's the worst I've seen so far. 3/21st and 3/23rd merged in September 1916 so it's not too surprising to see them mixed together in a draft. With regard to Branson, I wonder if his 7*** number is actually his 17th London number as I don't think moving from 23rd to 21st would generate a number change (both being affiliated with the East Surreys).

I've run into a number of cases where drafts for the 23rd were snatched and they were medalled as 23rd Londons but never actually served with either overseas battalion. It's harder tracking down the men who were taken before they even made it to the IBD in France.

Best regards,

Matthew

[paul802d]

Hi all,

I took it upon myself to launch a Twitter feed for the movements of the 23rd London Regiment - and the larger 6th London Inf Bde - 100 years to the day.

For those of you in the twittersphere you can find it @westernfront73

I did it partly as a way of thinking about my great grandfather's efforts day by day, partly a way of crowdsourcing the story, partly as a way of setting activity against the goings on politically and eleswhere and partly as a comms experiment (comms manager is the day job you see).

Anyway, I dont pretent to be an expert on the 23rd's - although I have done some background reading - so if anyone would like to follow the acccount and add their two penneth they would be more than welcome.

best, Paul

[Guest Lambertjee]

Hi Matthew,

Would it be possible to be put in touch with Si168. He posted a photo of my relative, 1664 Thomas Charles Harding on the 6/7/2012 and I wonder if it would be possible to get a copy.

regards. Bob Smith

[westkent78]

Hello Bob,

Welcome to the forum.

You should be able to private message him by clicking on his name and then message him from there. There may be a restriction on your ability to pm him until you've made a certain number of posts (5 or 10? not too sure) but you can easily get to that number around here. I'll have a check and see if I've got anything more on Harding since 2012.

Best regards,

Matthew

[Guest Lambertjee]

Hi Matthew, Have sent a message to Si168, your advice to a 'greenhorn' is much appreciated

[Prastomademe]

Hi members

I have the honour to possess a military medal, for Bravery in the field awarded to 3284 Corperal L W Strugnell

1/23 Btn London Regiment , listed in The London gazette on the 19/2/1917, he was later killed whilst on duty with the RAF in Framce with the rank 2nd Luitenant , He was Piloting a DH 9 bomber plane and according to sources was seen gliding down during a bombing raid and getting into a spin killing himself and his observer SJT Cecil Lomax , they are buried side by side at Huby Saint-Leu cemetery in France, Died 16/6/1918.

A very sad story, but one that needs to be told .

I would be grateful if anyone could enlighten me if possible of the circumstances regarding actions of L W Strugnells Military Medal

Thanking you all in advance

Nick Davies

[westkent78]

Hello Nick,

Lucky you!

Yes, I can help. I just received a new computer so I'm busy setting it up at present. I'll pm you when I get to the data- shouldn't be long. It was actually a case of third time 'lucky' for Strugnell and his MM if I recall.

Best regards,

Matthew

[Prastomademe]

Hi Mathew

That's great I can't wait it sounds really interesting , I look forward to hearing from you

Thanks

Nick

[gdopo]

Hi, brand new to the forum, so may be posting in the wrong place, I am researching a relative who died in the great war, He was William Oliver pte,703175 of the 1/23rd London regiment

Birth abt 1895 in Dorking, Surrey, England Death 09 Jun 1917 in France & Flanders

although I already have a lot of information on Him, I was wondering if anyone has any photos of his regiment, I have scoured the internet but find nothing. He is honoured at the memorial ypres menin gate. any assistance is greatly apreciated. thanks.

[clk]

Hi gdopo,

Welcome to the forum.

I'm sorry I don't have a photo. Would William have been the son of George (born 24th November 1866 in Billingbear, Waltham St Lawrence, Berkshire) ?

Regards

Chris

[westkent78]

Hello gdopo,

Welcome to the forum. Thanks for posting on my thread. You're in the right place.

I assume you've found William's surviving service papers online?

Unfortunately I don't have a photo of William or even a confirmed one of the unit from 1917.

Do you know what unit of the Labour Corps his brother George was in, or Frederick's ASC unit?

Best regards,

Matthew

[clk]

Hi Matthew,

I very strongly suspect that William is the nephew of my great grandmother (so some kind of cousin) on whom I've done absolutely no research - shame on me !!! May I ask the reference for his brothers being with the Labour Corps and ASC?

Regards

Chris

[Simon_Fielding]

Has anyone access to a decent map of the ground at Givenchy the 47th Div attacked on on the 25th May '15? I've tried Maude, the OH 1915 volume, even Conan Doyle, drawn a blank on the NLS....all seem to ust miss it...

[Simon_Fielding]

Anyone have anything to add to this bio.? By any chance, anyone have a photo of Rowley?

Cyril Adams Clarke Rowley was born in Wimbledon on the 6^th September 1888, son of a clergyman Walter Pountney Rowley, (1858-1942) and Mary Elizabeth Silley (1864 – 1920) of Micheldean, Gloucestershire. He attended St John’s Foundation School, Epsom Road, Leatherhead from 1898 to 1904, an institution which provided free education for “sons of poor clergy”. He was commissioned in April 1912, originally serving as a Territorial officer with the 2^nd London Brigade of the Royal Field Artillery, and transferring to the 23^rd Londons in January 1914. He was promoted Lieutenant in March 1915, Captain in May 1916; The St. John’s school magazine records Rowley being wounded in action three times while serving with the 23^rd Battalion. His younger brother Walter Austin Rowley (1892-1917) was killed in action serving with the 8^th Battalion the Leicestershire Regiment. He died at Nottingham Place, St. Marylebone, on the 1^st April 1964.

[gdopo]

thankyou for your replies. yes he was the son of George (born 24th November 1866 in Billingbear, Waltham St Lawrence, Berkshire) the only records I have found regarding William Oliver are his medal roll index card, and his memorial certificate. also something from the war dead records..

Chris, William Oliver is my third cousin 2x removed! any advice on finding further records? photos . I hadn't really looked at miltary records for His brothers, and especially his brother who signed up with his mothers maiden name. does anyone have a reason why someone would have done that?

Kind Regards

Simon (gdospo)

[richardgreen1908]

Simon

There is a map of the front line May - June 1915 in the history of the 47th Division. Not sure if this will attach, but I can send you a link if it does not work.

regards

Richard

[Simon_Fielding]

Thank you Richard!

Simon


There is a map of the front line May - June 1915 in the history of the 47th Division. Not sure if this will attach, but I can send you a link if it does not work.

[westkent78]

Well done Richard.

Simon,

No identified picture of Rowley yet I'm afraid. I'll do a bit more digging on him and see what I can uncover. Still working my way through all the trench maps in the 47th's War Diaries, but I think there may be some of relevance to Givenchy in there.

Simon (gdospo) & Chris,

The details of his brothers are from his WO363 service file which is on Findmypast, and probably Ancestry (although I haven't checked there). You can use his 703175 number to find him. As to why someone would sign up under his mother's maiden name, the most common reason I've come across was because he was underage and didn't want to be discovered. But having looked at the next of kin page I see George was 29 in 1919, and Frederick? (their mother Lucy has very floral handwriting) was 26 so that reason doesn't make sense. Might be as simple as joined up in 1914 but didn't have parent's approval. It also appears that one of their sisters might have been working as some form of nurse- Constance is listed as being at Connaught Hospital, Aldershot.

Best regards,

Matthew

[clk]

Thanks Matthew,

I've found a few bits and pieces about 703175 Oliver, including a newspaper photo. It's not really worth having though as the image quality is so poor - it's basically a silhouette. I will post further details for you/Simon (gdopo) when I've pulled them together.

Regards

Chris

[gdopo]

interestingly considering that I knew only that my great grandfather fought in the first world war, in the last few weeks I have discovered four great uncles who fought and two who died in battle.

thank you all for your help..

Regards

Simon

[clk]

Re 703175 William Oliver

Still can't find his record on Ancestry, but now I have it from FMP there is not a lot more that I can add.

• His parents, George Oliver and Lucy Sturgess, were married at St Paul's, Dorking on 1st March 1891 (not November as transcribed on Ancestry)
• He was born in Dorking on 16th December 1894, and christened on 19th May 1895 at St Paul's, Dorking
• He appears to have started his schooling on 28th August 1899 at the Dorking British School
• In the 1901 Census he is living with his parents and siblings at 35, Orchard Road, Dorking
• In the 1911 Census he is an errand boy to a draper, and still at the same address with parents and siblings
• His death is recorded as "killed in action" and is subsequently reported in the Dorking and Leatherhead Advertiser of 7th July 1917:

"Information has been received by Mr. and Mrs. G. Oliver, of 3, Vincents-road, Dorking, of the death in action of their son, Pte. William Oliver, London Regiment. He joined up three years ago, and had been in France about twelve months. He had been previously wounded in the thigh.".

• There doesn't appear to be a surviving Will on https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills
• He is listed on a casualty list published in the Surrey Mirror and County Post of 28th November 1916 as:

"6915 Pte W. Oliver (Dorking)" under the "wounded" section of men listed from the London Regiment. This presumably relates to the wound he received to his thigh on 8th October 1916.

Simon

Whilst his service record shows that he was with other units prior to being sent abroad, he only served in an "active theatre" with the 1/23rd (County of London Battalion) London Regiment from 1st September 1916 until his death on 9th June 1917. The war diary for the relevant period can be downloaded from the National Archives http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354570 for £3.30.

I guess that the two key dates that would be of the main interest are the 8th October 1916 and June 9th 1917.

In late September 1916 the Battalion HQ appears to be based in Mellincourt, and the diary entry for 8th October 1916 reads "5.0 P.M Battalion moved to Brigade Reserve, Headquarters at STARFISH. Battalion, less permanent working party in FLERs SWITCH and in PRUE TRENCH. At 11 PM one company was ordered to reinforce 21st London Regt in front of EAUCOURT L'ABBAYE, and the party of 60 other ranks, under 2/Lt C. J. Creed which had been left at HIGH WOOD at the disposal of STAFF CAPT. was ordered to take the place of reinforcing troops in FLER SWITCH thus formed, moved up to reinforce 21st London Regt. These reinforcements were carried out under the command of CAPT. R. H. TOLERTON, who thus passed under the command of O/C 21st London Regiment".

On June 7th 1917 the Battalion HQ was based at "Right Section CANAL Sub Sector YPRES" and records "Bn. in attack on YPRES - COMINES CANEL. Lt. Col. H. H. KEMBLE, D.S.O, M.C., Died of wounds. 2/Lts L. P. CLIFFORD, H. STONE, and G. W. FRANKLYN Killed in action. Major T.C HARGRAVES assumed command of Bn.", The diary also includes a 4 page narrative of the attack they made (June 7th to June 9th)

The next entry in the diary is for 9th/10 June which reads "Bn. HQ. moved back to BLUFF TOWERS,

Total casualties(O.R.) 33 killed 159 Wounded 2 missing"

It may well be worth downloading copies of the Brigade and Division war diaries for 142 Infantry Brigade and 47th Division as they will most likely contain additional contextual information such as maps, operational orders and reports etc. These hopefully would help to identify the locations (e.g. the trenches mentioned) in the Battalion war diary.

Now that I've put William into my family history software it gives him as my 1st cousin twice removed. I'll send you a PM for something I hope that you may be able to help with.

Regards

Chris

[SteveS54]

Simon

I too have spent quite a lot of time seeking maps of the Givenchy area in relation to the action by 47th Division on 25/26th May 1915 - my grandfather was in 1/24 Londons and was wounded in the action.

The first attached map is the most useful I have managed to find on the web - I don't have access to any trench map databases where there may be better ones. I am fairly certain that it dates from mid-1915, as the position of the German front line ties in with other maps I have seen and with the descriptions of the action in May 1915.

The British front line ran roughly N-S through the eastern side of the village of Givenchy, and the objective of the action appears to have been to advance in the direction of Chapelle St Roch, presumably to reduce the German salient immediately to the north of the village.

The track that runs north from the village and touches the tip of the salient can still be found on modern maps as 'Rue du Calvaire'. I believe that the main action on 25/26th took place around the dogleg in this track, which is referred to in the 24th Battn. War Diary as the 'S-Bend', and in newspaper reports as the 'B****y Angle'. The contour line that runs from NE to SW indicates some slightly lower ground and is probably the line of the 'sunken road' mentioned in the War Diary, through which many of the wounded were evacuated.

There is a detailed narrative description of the action in the 24th Battn. War Diary, which is well worth reading if you have not already seen it. A large number of battlefield messages and signals from the night of 25/26^th can be found here: http://www.queensroyalsurreys.org.uk/war_diaries/local/1_24Bn_Queens_London.shtml

I found the other two maps on a website for the 20^th Londons which now seems to have disappeared. They are a bit confusing as they are upside- down (i.e. south is at the top), but they are dated 25^th and 26^th May. The ‘S-Bend’ can be seen at the top of the map in the second complete square from the left. The alphanumeric position indicators are very difficult to read in this area of the map, but I think this is the location of the German trench line I3 to I4, which is where the most intense action appears to have taken place.

Steve