23rd (County of London) Battalion, the London Regiment

[Guest Steve Uglow]

Willard UGLOW, lance corporal (unpaid), 2990, 23rd Battalion, London Regiment - an analytical chemist from Woodford Green, he enlisted when battalion formed at 27 St Johns Hill, Clapham Junction 16/9/1914. He came to France on 4th February 1915 and was missing, presumed killed on 26th May 1915. Does anyone know what action was happening that day? Was this at Festubert? And why did Willard's family receive British War and Victory medal but, apparently, not the 14-15 Star? 

 

Any help always gratefully received

 

Steve

[richardgreen1908]

Steve

 

there is a personal account of the action at Festubert on 26th May 1915 page 13 of this thread. Also in the regimental history and the history of the 47th Division is out of copyright and available here: https://archive.org/details/47thlondondivisi00maudrich. Also an account in the 1/23 war diary

 

regards

 

Richard

 

 

[Langdon]

 

Apologies for hooking on to this long thread but while visiting St. Mary's Battersea on the river this morning I saw this colour of the 23rd London Regiment and thought I'd share it with the Forum. It matches the battle honours mentioned here.

I also enclose a section of an 1838 tithe map hanging nearby.

Mike

 

[Pat Atkins]

On 3/12/2017 at 17:49, richardgreen1908 said:

Steve

 

there is a personal account of the action at Festubert on 26th May 1915 page 13 of this thread. Also in the regimental history and the history of the 47th Division is out of copyright and available here: https://archive.org/details/47thlondondivisi00maudrich. Also an account in the 1/23 war diary

 

regards

 

Richard

 

 

Worth also looking at the War Diary of the 24th Londons for the action at Givenchy on 26 May 1915, as it's more detailed; they attacked next to 23rd Battalion.

 

Cheers, Pat.

 

Edit: nice pic of the colours, Langdon, thanks for posting it.

Edited 15 May , 2017 by Pat Atkins

[Guest]

hello new to the forum not had time to read through the thread, i have an item that belonged to a private J.W Garret 1/23rd battalion London regiment has the number 29126 written on it also. service number? i believe he was a lance corporal in 1917. anybody have any info??

[Guest]

Be interesting to find out about his service And if possible find a member of family to give this to. Any information would be a great help

cheers

Edited 4 August , 2017 by Guest

[Tony Wilcox]

I've just come across this thread, and not not yet read all the way through ....  If it's any help, may I add:

Tasker, Pte 718138 Albert Edward, born 9th June 1898 in Clapham;  transferred to the 23rd at the beginning of 1918.   Previously with the 12th London (The Rangers) no 555527.  Wounded and taken prisoner on August 22nd 1918 (presumably south-east of Albert).   Arrived back in England 26th November 1918, lived in Peckham (then) and eventually died in 1973.   Unfortunately, we lost touch with him after his younger sister (my mother) died in 1951, so details are sparse.

[dummer]

Doing some research on Sidney (Sydney) Herbert Willis, 1/23rd(County of London)London Regiment killed in action 15.9.16 (presumably at High Wood)  Private 7528

 

Have his medal roll, cwgc entry, the war diaries and have traced his local family connections. Just wondered if anyone had any further information on him - attestation details or enlistment notes. He features on the Dummer, Hampshire war memorial. 

 

Also I understand there is a black marble memorial to the 1/23rd in St Mary's Battersea - info on iwm site but wondered if anyone had a photograph of it they'd be prepared to share.

[clk]

Hi Dummer,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Unfortunately, I didn't find any service papers, nor a will for your chap. His Soldiers Died transcription  record indicates that he enlisted in Berkeley Square, and seems to (incorrectly attribute the year of his death to 1918). It also says that he was previously number 4618 with the 9th London Regiment. The amount of War Gratuity shown as paid in his Soldiers Effects record can be used to calculate (thanks to Forum Pal Craig) that his service counted from circa May 1915.

 

Near number sampling (here) shows that 4615 Maxwell enlisted 1st May 1915, and 4616 Moyise on the same date - the latter initially 3rd Battalion, before being transferred to the 9th on 14th May 1915.

 

From his medal roll record Sidney/Sydney only served overseas with the 23rd Bn - arriving in theatre on 17h June 1916.

 

It might be worth doing some near number sampling against his 7528  23rd Battalion renumber. For example just looking at one of the 'hits' here 7520 Reynolds (previously 4469  9th Battalion) left Southampton on 16th June 1916, and arrived in Rouen on 17th June1916 - joining the Battalion 'in the field' on 3rd July 1916. Hopefully you may be able to draw some reasonable inferences about your chap.

 

Good luck.

 

Regards

Chris

 

 

[dummer]

Many thanks. I'll check that out.

[westkent78]

Hello Dummer,

 

This batch of 9th Londons is an interesting one. 

 

They made there way from 3/9th London to Southampton on 16th June and landed at Rouen on 17th June. At this point they're still destined for 1/9th and are in the Infantry depot until they get orders to move to 1/23rd on 2nd July. There's 35 of them who all transfer to 1/23rd and arrive physically on 3rd July 1916 as Chris has pointed out. Not a particularly lucky group as 16 of them are deceased by the end of 16th September, with a few more back in Blighty because of wounds over the coming weeks and.

 

What is puzzling to me is that even though they've been serving with 1/23rd since early July, they aren't compulsorily transferred to 1/23rd until 9th September, and so they get the 75** numbers which are out of series with where the rest of the regiment's numbering system was at this time. I assume that this was a number block that the regiment had allocated to the Depot in France for such cases as these where the 'powers that be' grabbed a group of men from one regiment and said that they were now serving in another regiment.

 

Possibly these men may have initially been upset they weren't Queen's Victoria Riflemen any longer!

 

Best regards,

Matthew

 

 

[Chris_B]

The names of two 23rd London men appear on war memorials that were in Mitcham UD and which is now the London Borough of Merton.

 

1966 Pte. Percy Gorodn MOORE  - Civic Mitcham Memorial and St.Marks Church

1856 Walter Soper -  Civic Mitcham Memorial and Christ Church (lost memorial)

 

Walter's father, William Henry Soper DCM served 21 yrs with K O Borderers and held a commission as a QM with the Royal Sussex and RAF during the Great War. 

 

 

[dummer]

 

Hi westkent78

 

Interesting. It sounds as if 35 of them were in the wrong place at the wrong time! He would normally have gone into the Hampshire Regiment like many of the villagers here did,  but his widowed mother remarried in 1913 and the family relocated to Croydon. I suppose if he had he would have ended up in Gallipoli like several of our casualties.

 

Reading up about the 15th September 1916 and the 47th (2nd London) Division losses at High Wood one can only wonder at what they found themselves in the middle of. As you say, an unlucky group.

 

Thanks for the help.

[ChrisSessions]

I spotted that this interesting thread started in 2007 calling for names in the 23^rd Battalion, The London Regiment, and just wonder if you might be able to help me please.  I’m looking for a Captain who won the Military Cross and was attached to the 2/4 East Lancs Regiment at some time in 1917.

 

For a few years now I’ve been building up a folder on the WW1 history of my favourite uncle – Lieutenant Edward Masters Spicer who won the Military Cross at the Battle of Poelcappelle (Passchendaele) in October 1917.  I am well blessed because family correspondence and papers from that time were kept with hid medals, and included is a lovely personal letter from  Edward’s captain to my grandmother telling her about the award, and describing him as one of his officers and pals.  Sadly his writing is a little unusual in the way some of the characters are formed and even some individual letters are written in at least two ways but the letter can be read with a bit of effort.  The same applies to his signature but disappointingly I cannot read it.

 

The signature seems to start with a couple of intertwined initials connected to the surname.  The first letter of the surname is a bit weird and may be ‘M’ possibly making the surname Malen or Malin, but searches on these and other possible alternatives have got me nowhere.

 

I’ve only recently rejoined this forum and may be expelled quite quickly because I am trying to attach a low resolution image of the two sided letter.  I hope I don’t gum it up, but wonder if fresh pair of eyes and a more limited list of officers might help me to find out who this captain was so I can include that in my uncle’s presentation, please?

 

I have no idea if such secondments were common between regiments – I’ve not stumbled on this before.

 

 

I would be so grateful if someone might be able to assist me please.  Thank you.

[clk]

Hi,

 

The first initial doesn't look like an 'R', but might it be this chap:

 

Image Source: Ancestry.co.uk - British Army WW1 Medal Rolls Index Cards collection

 

His MC award appears to pre date the date of the letter.

 

Image Source: The National Archives - file WO 389/11

 

Regards

Chris

Edited 4 April , 2018 by clk

[ChrisSessions]

Good heavens, Chris!  You use the word ' might' but I certainly agree the surname could easily be Caley, and the reference to 2/4  Battalion East Lancs Regt on both his Medal Record under 'correspondence' and his MC card must pretty near guarantee it, musn't it?

AND:

The War Diary for 2/4 East Lancs reveals the fighting that lead to this man's award of the Military Cross on 10 June 1917 citing place as Canal Right.   The War Diary is part of an Adobe file that I cannot edit or copy (I don't think) so I've taken a photo to attach here.  It is at an angle to reduce light reflection but is probably readable.

SO:

May I say an enormous Thank You and ask if there is a charity or other beneficiary I can send a tenner to by way of showing my gratitude?

 

Edward Spicer's entry under the IWM Lives of the Frist World War is here https://livesofthefirstworldwar.org/lifestory/4207325

I'll be looking for your Reginald Caley there too when my mind calms down

With best wishes

Chris

 

NB Please do remove any of these last two entries if not approriate or the images are of inadequate quality. I won't feel offended!

Edited 4 April , 2018 by ChrisSessions

[clk]

Hi Chris,

 

13 minutes ago, ChrisSessions said:

the fighting that lead to this man's award of the Military Cross on 10 June 1917 citing place as Canal Right

 

His hand annotated MC citation...

 

Image Source: The National Archives - file WO 389/4

 

Regards

Chris

[ChrisSessions]

Well!  Thank you again, Chris.  I really do appreciate the effort you have put in to sort me out.

 

I've found Reginald Caley on the IWM Lives of the First of the First World War and no one has 'adopted' him. I have 'remembered' him now.  Would there be an abuse of data protection rules if I use the images you have procurred to fill out some of his service detail, and maybe write a note drawn from the 2/4 East Lancs War Diary if it not treading on your toes?  I've been looking for him for three years and feel he is a friend too!  Sadly his initials are recorded as R M C on the IWM site, not R, wrongly including his award 'MC' as his second and third initial, so may mislead other searchers.

Kind regards

Chris

[clk]

Hi Chris,

 

51 minutes ago, ChrisSessions said:

Would there be an abuse of data protection rules if I use the images you have procurred to fill out some of his service detail, and maybe write a note drawn from the 2/4 East Lancs War Diary

 

As the information is already in the public domain, I can't see that there could be any data protection issues.

 

Regards

Chris

[David_Underdown]

Data Protection really only applies to living individuals in any case (there can be wrinkles if a record happens to mention eg children who could still be alive, but none of that applies here).  I've used essentially the same source for other profiles on Lives.

Edited 4 April , 2018 by David_Underdown

[westkent78]

Chris,

 

I was going to say that it was interesting that he was with 2/4th East Lancs as another 1/23rd Londons Officer had won a M.C. when attached to them.

 

Now I see he's mentioned in that diary extract- Capt. Howard H. Keay.    He was commissioned in 1915 , before Caley, but I find it quite a coincidence that they ended up attached to the same East Lancs battalion having both been at least nominally in 1/23rd- I don't believe they actually ever made it to 1/23rd at the front. They had both served in 1/16th Londons as privates early in the war.

 

Matthew

[clk]

Hi Matthew,

 

That is really interesting. I had seen Captain Keay mentioned in the war diary, but didn't look at him further as I couldn't see that his surname was near the signature on the letter - so I didn't appreciate that he too was a 23/London man with an MC award. I'm still not that comfortable with the forename initial of the signature in the letter being an 'R', but the choices do seem to be limited.

 

If I were Chris, another thing that I'd want to establish is that if the 2nd Lieutenant Caley who was awarded his MC for his actions on 10.6.1917 (announced LG of 16.8.1917), had been promoted to Captain by the time that the letter dated 27th November 1917 was signed. The timescale seems to be quite tight, but I guess a search of the London Gazette would show and date any promotions.

 

Regards

Chris

[ChrisSessions]

Gentlemen

Many thanks for your comments and guidence.

 

The 2/4 East Lancs War Diary for April and May 1917 indicated that they had taken turns protecting the Canal Bassee area but showed no major fighting or large losses in that period, so perhaps the attachment of Second Lieutenant Caley and Captain Keay may have been to bolster the battalion for the 'Ginger' plan put into action on 10 June?  They certainly featured in the report so their contributions were clearly exceptional.

Captain Keay was wounded on or around 8 October along with others in the same fighting that my uncle Edward Spicer got his MC.

As an aside, he (Edward Spicer) enlisted with the Artists Rifles, 28th Battalion, The London Regiment on 2nd November 1915 but by the 15th December had been poached by the East Lancs Regiment and given his commission!

 

I can now produce individual images from the large pdf file War Diaries for the 2/4 E Lancs Regt if helpful.

Again, thank you

Chris

 

A later addition: Gazette entry for East Lancashire Regt reads "The undermentioned to be actg. Capts. whilst comdg. Cos:-   2nd Lt R Caley (Lond R) 27 June 1917"

Seems mean not to have at least given him an unrestricted promotion to Lieutenant, and from that rank to act as Captain whilst etc.

All this means our excellent Brigadier-General was spot on with his research - brilliant - thanks

Edited 5 April , 2018 by ChrisSessions
An additonal note added

[Guest]

Hello

 

Just a note to say my ggrandfather also served in the 1/23.

1799 Private Ernest Frederick ROLFE

Date of entry 13/3/15

Discharged 29/12/16

I don't know why he was discharged and don't know if he was sent back. Looking at the war diary is seemed like a quiet(ish) point in Dec 16 ...

 

Thanks

Rebecca

[Pat Atkins]

Rebecca, there is a Silver War Badge record for your great-grandfather (if you have Ancestry it's available there). It tells us that he enlisted on 2nd March 1914, and was discharged as you say on 29th December 1916 - as a result of wounds. It doesn't give any more details, and it's impossible to tell how long he was in hospital and/or convalescing before his discharge so it's not easy to guess when and where he was actually wounded. But at least you know why his service ended then. I don't think he would have served with another unit after this, though I'm no expert I'm afraid.

 

Cheers, Pat

 

Edit: I don't have Find My Past, but a search there just might throw up a record relating to Ernest Rolfe as a casualty. It's a very long shot, though.

Edited 8 April , 2018 by Pat Atkins