23rd (County of London) Battalion, the London Regiment

[clk]

Hi Rebecca,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Ernest has some service papers (FMP link here - they should also be on Ancestry). They record that he was wounded ('shrapnel') in his left leg on 3rd November 1915.

 

Regards

Chris

 

Edit:

 

His dates are:

 

Home service - 05.08.1914 to 13.03.1915

France - 14.03.1915 to 08.11.1915

Home "service" - 09.11.1915 to 29.12.1916

 

Edited 8 April , 2018 by clk

[Pat Atkins]

The War Diary for 23rd Londons on 3rd November 1915 is, as usual, frustratingly minimal. In its entirety: "Casualties 5 (5 wounded)". One of these was Ernest Rolfe, presumably. Similar casualties had been taken on the previous days in the line - this was the final day of four at "Section B2", which was somewhere south of the La Bassée canal in the vicinity of Mazingarbe. Looking at the dates Chris has found, his wound must have been serious enough to have him passed down the line and evacuated to the UK in 5 days, and then to have him discharged after a year and a couple of months.

 

His entry into theatre date shows that he arrived in France with the 23rd Londons, and so he had survived the attack at Givenchy on 25th May 1915 which killed so many of the original members of the battalion.

Edited 9 April , 2018 by Pat Atkins
replaced the year I'd somehow missed out between evacuation and discharge - apologies Rebecca (and thanks Matthew, below).

[westkent78]

Hello Rebecca,

 

Ernest Rolfe was in C Company when serving in 1/23rd London.

 

After his wounding and his return to UK on 8th Nov 1915 he would have been sent to a hospital to recover. It appears that his recovery took until 14th Aug 1916, as that is the date he was sent to 108th Provisional Battalion in the UK, so his shrapnel wound must have been pretty severe.  This battalion was affiliated with 23rd London and comprised Territorial Personnel who weren't available for overseas service and soldiers of low medical category. I've also seen very young soldiers posted there until they came of age.

 

In Ernest's case I think he was sent to 108th in the hope that his medical ability would improve enough for him to be posted back to 3/23rd London and eventually get sent overseas again. If he hadn't improved to some extent while recuperating he would have been discharged directly from hospital without being posted to 108th, but his medical condition didn't improve enough in the later half of 1916 to warrant either remaining in 108th Bn or transferring back to 23rd London.

 

Thanks for sharing,

Matthew

[Guest]

Matthew. You started this a long time ago. Do you have recorded William George Mortley Service Nos 146 / 6768079?  Born 1873 Woolwich. France from 14/31915.

His daughter was a friend of my parents. As his medal role lists him as RQMS I am interested to know more about his involvement in the Great War. I know from articles in my possession that he didn't retire 'til 1931. Thanks for any  info.

Pat

[clk]

Hi Pat,

 

Welcome to the Forum. Hopefully Matthew will be along later. In the meantime...

 

Paul Nixon's service number website says that #43 joined 1st April 1908. There are also some surviving papers for #145 Tallyn and #149 Gregory which indicate that they attested on 6th and 7th April 1908 respectively. His medal roll records indicate that he served in active theatre between 14th March 1915 and 29th March 1916, He was then discharged on 14th April 1916 as a consequence of "T. O. E" - the termination of his period of engagement, i.e. effectively the period of time that he had signed up for, though possibly extended by a year under a clause in the 'contract'. It looks like having been discharged. he signed up again, and was awarded the Meritorious Service Medal in 1919 under the service number of 702823. That number falls within the block allocated to the Battalion under the general renumbering of the TF in 1917 - see here. As his medal roll doesn't reference overseas service past March 1916, my guess would be that his subsequent service was as a home service 3/23 Bn man, though he must have done something of note to have been awarded the MSM.

 

The post war number of 6768079 appears to cross reference to what remains of this service file held by the MoD (though I notice a discrepancy between the birth year you have). 

 

 

Hopefully, it would give you his proper story. You could get a copy - see here. Helpdesk phone number here.

 

Regards

Chris

 

 

 

 

Edited 30 June , 2018 by clk

[David_Underdown]

Note that 1908 is when the Territorial Force was created (by conversion of former Volunteer Force units), the dates given are probably when the men named signed up ot the new "terms and conditions", but those signing up at that point would very probably have had service with the predecessor Volunteer unit.

[westkent78]

Pat,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Chris has filled you in with much of the information on William Mortley. 

 

His father was a Police Serjeant from Kent. William appears to have lived in Battersea for most of his pre-war life.

 

David is correct that William had prior service to 1908 when 23rd London was formed. He was 3930 in 4th Volunteer Bn of the East Surrey Regiment and earned a Volunteer Long Service Good Conduct Medal with them. He was renumbered as 146 in 23rd London on 6th April 1908. In 1919 he was awarded his MSM for good work on Home Service, primarily with 3/23rd London as 702823. I presume it was for training related activities. Most of the 11 MSM that 23rd London received seem to have gone to senior NCOs for what I'd term good staff and training work. He also received a Territorial Efficiency Medal in May 1922, with a clasp in August 1931, both as R.Q.M.S. Looks like he retired once he received his clasp. He had quite a medal group!

 

When he went overseas in March 1915, he was C.Q.M.S. in B Company. After he returned to UK in March 1916, and took his discharge on 14th April 1916, it appears he took a couple of months off before re-enlisting on 28th June 1916 into 3/23rd London where he remained for the duration of the war. You'll need to access the file that Chris identified to find out much more.

 

I'd be interested to see what's in those 'articles' you mention.

 

Best regards,

Matthew

[Guest]

Many thanks Chris and Matthew. You have given me lots of info. and leads to follow. I am sure he was born 1873 having traced him from his school admission record where his father is a police sergeant, through 1911 with daughter Lilian whom I knew, to  the 1939 register. 25th  March is correct.

 I have a silver cigarette box enscribed:

from the Sergeants' Mess 23rd London Regt.

To RQMS W. G. Mortley on retirement. 1891 - 1931

 

So - from David's helpful comment does the 1891 mean he was with a predecessor volunteer unit??

 

No medals passed on to me, sadly.

best wishes,

Pat

 

[westkent78]

Pat,

 

Yes. 4th Volunteer Battalion of the East Surrey Regiment.

 

Best regards,

Matthew

[Guest]

Hi

I,m looking for any information on my Great Uncle Capt James Potter MC RAMC . According to his Gazette entry (26th April 18) he was attached to 23rd  London Regiment and won he MC at Aveluy Wood 4th April 18 when the Germans overran his Regimental Aid Post.An entry in the War diary of the 47th Division Headquarters Branches and Services: Asst Dir Medical Services (1917 Jan - 1919 Apr)  has him being evacuated sick from the 23rd London Regiment on 16th June 18.

However The 47th (London) Division, 1914-1919 has him attached to 24th  London Regiment. Were medical officers moved between regiments or were they shared especially if manning RAPs? Also  i can't find him on any of the medal rolls or silver war badge records under either 23rd London Regiment or RAMC. He was part of the forces of occupation after the war serving with 1st Middlesex in Cologne  i have his officers ID card dated 2 March 21

 

Steve

[Pat Atkins]

I'm no expert but I believe while RAMC were attached for duty to e.g. infantry battalions like 23rd Londons, their personnel records (medals, etc) would be RAMC. I think I'm right in saying officers had to apply for their campaign medals, and if they didn't there won't be a record in the medal rolls.

 

MOs could be moved around at times between battalions, either to address the exigencies of war or by their own request. Does the 47th Div record give details of dates or the like? Might just possibly be a transcription error, 24th for 23rd, I wonder if it is usually accurate or not (there seems to be considerable variation in these things). 

 

I think in The War The Infantry Knew Dunn (MO, 2nd Royal Welch Fusiliers) mentions RAPs effectively having a supra-battalion function at times of stress, for example during an attack, supporting more than one battalion in a brigade. During the Spring 1918 offensive the situation on the ground was probably particularly confused, too.

 

Have you looked for your Gt uncle's officer's papers at the National Archives? I had a very quick look but couldn't find anything, but then I definitely don't have the knack. Good luck in your research - I should think someone will be along with meaningful assistance soon enough. 

 

Cheers, Pat.

Edited 16 August , 2018 by Pat Atkins

[ss002d6252]

Quote

I think I'm right in saying officers had to apply for their campaign medals, and if they didn't there won't be a record in the medal rolls.

You're correct.

Craig

[Pat Atkins]

Just now, ss002d6252 said:

You're correct.

Craig

Phew! Thanks, Craig. My trouble is, I've picked up so much new information over the last few years on here (from a pretty much Year Zero start point, mind) without systematically recording it, I now live in a murky world of hunches, half-memories and uncertainty... And that, children, is my sage advice to you on starting out: write it all down! Oh, and index it, too.

[westkent78]

18 hours ago, Uncle Buck said:

Hi

I,m looking for any information on my Great Uncle Capt James Potter MC RAMC . According to his Gazette entry (26th April 18) he was attached to 23rd  London Regiment and won he MC at Aveluy Wood 4th April 18 when the Germans overran his Regimental Aid Post.An entry in the War diary of the 47th Division Headquarters Branches and Services: Asst Dir Medical Services (1917 Jan - 1919 Apr)  has him being evacuated sick from the 23rd London Regiment on 16th June 18.

However The 47th (London) Division, 1914-1919 has him attached to 24th  London Regiment. Were medical officers moved between regiments or were they shared especially if manning RAPs? Also  i can't find him on any of the medal rolls or silver war badge records under either 23rd London Regiment or RAMC. He was part of the forces of occupation after the war serving with 1st Middlesex in Cologne  i have his officers ID card dated 2 March 21

 

Steve 

 

Welcome Steve,

 

Here is his citation, recommended 10/4/18.

"For conspicuous gallantry during recent operations, especially during an enemy attack at Aveluy Wood on 5th April 1918, where he continuously attended wounded under heavy shelling & rifle fire & maintained his RAP not withstanding that the enemy nearly reached it. Also at High Wood on 24th March 1918 he assisted in rallying troops & his cheerfulness was of the greatest assistance on several trying occasions."

 

Although, I also have an MC citation for work in 1917 which was recommended on 13/02/1918.

"For gallantry and continuous good work especially (i) on the 4th November, 1917 during a raid made by the Battalion near Gavrelle when this Officer on his own initiative went forward into 'No-mans' land and supervised the work of the stretcher bearers: (ii) during the operations near Bourlon Wood in November and December, 1917 when he displayed exceptional courage in personally picking up wounded under heavy shell and gas shell fire after heavy casualties had occurred in the stretcherbearers. by his courage and cheerfulness he set a splendid example to all."

 

But I don't think that he was awarded a bar for his MC, so perhaps his first recommendation in Feb 1918 wasn't successful?

 

As others have said, if he didn't apply then he wouldn't have received his war medals. His Service File may be at the National Archives, or still with the MOD if he served with 1st Middlesex much beyond 1921. RAMC Officer files which ended up at National Archives were heavily weeded at some point and many haven't survived at all, unfortunately.

 

It seems that some M.O.s were moved around, but perhaps not between battalions. His replacement Robertson from the M.O.R.C. appears to have served some time with 4th Field Ambulance before being moved to 1/23rd London, and I've seen similar with a few other replacements of existing Battalion MOs in the 47th Division. Perhaps if you can trace your Great Uncle through the various Officers Lists at the National Archives you might see whether he jumped around between battalions, or if it was just a typo.

 

Best regards,

Matthew

 

[Guest]

hi 

 thanks for all your replies 

 

Pat i had the same thought about the RAP covering more than one battalion and maybe in the fog of war he was put down as being in the 24th 

 

Matthew - i was unaware of the Bourlon Wood citation , as far as family lore goes he had the MC for action at Avulay Wood , i think it likely that he never applied for his war  medals .My dad used to tell a story about Jim and my  granddad ,who served in the Grenadier Guards ,having a massive feud when granddad  found out that Jim he had sold his MC .Apparently Jim  said that he would rather have all the men he treated alive than a piece of metal stuck to his chest! 

 

Steve

[helpjpl]

47 minutes ago, Uncle Buck said:

hi 

 thanks for all your replies 

 

Pat i had the same thought about the RAP covering more than one battalion and maybe in the fog of war he was put down as being in the 24th 

 

Matthew - i was unaware of the Bourlon Wood citation , as far as family lore goes he had the MC for action at Avulay Wood , i think it likely that he never applied for his war  medals .My dad used to tell a story about Jim and my  granddad ,who served in the Grenadier Guards ,having a massive feud when granddad  found out that Jim he had sold his MC .Apparently Jim  said that he would rather have all the men he treated alive than a piece of metal stuck to his chest! 

 

Steve

 

British Medical Journal, 17 August 1918 - see page 172:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2341649/pdf/brmedj06957-0024.pdf

 

JP

[pat]

On 27/08/2014 at 10:23, Simon_Fielding said:

The speaker / writer is Stanley Adams Houghton 1895 - 1985 b. Rayleigh, Essex.

 

Stan returned to the Front with a commission in the Labour Corps, survived the war, and had a very long and happy life.

 

 

Thank you so much for posting this 4 years ago.  I am researching Festubert and had already read Stanley Houghton's memoir, now in the IWM.  (Thank you for depositing it there if that was you).  It's also very useful to have a copy here to print off, and great to see the photo.  I'm very glad to hear he had a long and happy life.

Pat

[Simon_Fielding]

I'm glad it's a help Pat - not me with IWM but glad it's there. I was lucky to marry his lovely granddaughter!

 

Stan pictured below in the 1980s with his wife Elsa:

 

Edited 5 September , 2018 by Simon_Fielding

[pat]

HI Simon

 

what a lovely old couple!  It's nice that occasionally these First World War stories have a happy ending.

 

Pat

[Guest]

Posting here in case anyone can help shed light on my relative, 2Lt Alec Whitmarsh, wounded 31/8/1918 and died of wounds 8/9/1918 and buried at Heilly Station Cemetery, Mericourt-L'Abbe (Somme). Most records (including CWGC and "Officers Died") list him as serving in 8th Bn. London Regiment (Post Office Rifles), but there is no mention of him in that unit's war diary. His graves registration record on CWGC website shows him as serving with 23rd London Regt, and indeed in the 1/23rd London Regt, war diary he is listed as one of six 2Lts who joined the battalion on 30/8/1918. However all the battalion war diary states for the date he was wounded is “Battn. remained in Brigade support”. He is not mentioned in the war diary as being wounded or dead (or in any capacity again). The war diary shows his unit at being in the Hardecourt-aux-Bois / Maurepas area on 30/8/18, which fits with him being wounded and then taken to the rear to near the area where he was buried. 

 

Does anyone have any thoughts on how to find more? He appears to have been with his unit for around 24-36 hours only before being wounded. No other troops from his unit died on the day that he was wounded. Possibly the lack of mention of him in the war diary might mean it was an accidental wounding and/or he was away from his unit when it happened? I have wondered this for many years. Thanks

[westkent78]

Andrew,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Alec Whitmarsh would have been trained with 3/8th Londons, but was attached to 1/23rd Londons for service overseas. I suspect his service file may survive, albeit fairly well weeded, at the National Archives under WO 374/73976.

 

I suggest you look at the 142nd Brigade war diary for August 1918 as it goes into greater detail than 1/23rd's diary. "Brigade Support" seems to have been a bit more active than those words would suggest with relation to 29th-31st August and at least 3 Companies ended up in the front line under significant shellfire, with unfortunately plenty of casualties. 1/23rd were also involved in cleanup on Priez Farm early on 1st September.

 

I think that Alec Whitmarsh actually may have made it to the Bn on 29/08/1918, having gone overseas 8/8/18. On the war diary page you'll see the names of all ten Officers which the War Diary says joined on 29th or 30th. They all came over in the same draft on the 7th/8th, and the source I have indicates they all joined the battalion on 29th. I suspect 4 joined at Mametz and the other 6 caught up on the march and were logged that night/the next morning.

This group of 2nd Lts were very unlucky to be thrown in immediately, as six of them were killed or wounded by 3rd September. Like Whitmarsh, Lee and Urwin were wounded on 1st and Leaver was wounded on 3rd but don't warrant a mention of the event in the War Diary.

 

Hope that helps,

Matthew

 

 

[Guest]

Thank you Matthew, much appreciated. I read his service file years ago but it gives no clues about his death unfortunately (but lots of good background information on his earlier life) and doesn't even mention he was with 1/23 Londons. Very interesting to know about the other 2Lt casualties not being mentioned in the war diary either. I have now got the brigade war diary as you suggest and will have a read. I guess with the fog of war, the full details of his death may never be known, unless there is a memoir or similar out there that might describe this period? I might check out the Surrey History Centre which seems to hold some material on this battalion. Clearly it wasn't a great time to be a new 2Lt. Thanks for your help.

Andrew

[Guest]

Hi ,

 

I am trying to research my wife's great uncle Private John Gear whom was in the 1st/23rd London Regiment No 4998 whom I believe if my information is correct fell at the battle for high wood on the 16th Sept 1916 . I apologise for lack of information as I am new to this I'm not sure were to begin but any information would be gratefully received. If there is any info on when he joined and his company etc I would be grateful

[clk]

Hi Chris,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Unfortunately, I didn't see surviving service papers for John.

 

His Soldiers' Died record says that he was born in Forest Gate, and enlisted in Stratford.

 

The amount of War Gratuity shown as paid in his record is indicative of 12 or less months overall service.

 

His Medal Roll record shows that he served overseas in France/Flanders as follows.

Image source: Ancestry.co.uk

 

It's interesting to note that whilst his overseas service is continuous, it is split into two date ranges with no change in Regiment/Battalion. On the previous page in the medal roll, there is a 4964 Carter whose dates are split in a similar way. He does have surviving papers, They show that he was mobilised from the Army Reserve and first served at home with the 3/23rd Battalion, being transferred to the 2/23rd Bn for overseas service (arriving at Le Havre on 15.7.1916), then (whilst still presumably at the Infantry Base Depot) transferred to the 1/23rd Bn on 18.8.1916 - joining them in the field on 19th August 1916. I think it probable that John followed the same path, and he was one of the 101 men recorded in the war diary (Ancestry link, National Archives link) as arriving from "Base" on that day. It would seem that he was killed about a month after going into the field. The 142 Infantry Brigade HQ, and 47 Division HQ diaries (Ancestry here and here, or from the National Archives search page) should add context to the events in the Battalion diary, but none are likely to mention John by name.

 

Looking at just a couple of near number men who were originally 3/23rd Bn men, and have surviving records you get:

 

4996 Chalmers - called up 7.3.1916

4998

4999 Chesters - called up 7.3.1916

 

There is good advice on researching a soldier here.

 

Regards

Chris

 

Edited 19 November , 2018 by clk

[Guest]

1 hour ago, clk said:

Hi Chris,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Unfortunately, I didn't see surviving service papers for John.

 

His Soldiers' Died record says that he was born in Forest Gate, and enlisted in Stratford.

 

The amount of War Gratuity shown as paid in his record is indicative of 12 or less months overall service.

 

His Medal Roll record shows that he served overseas in France/Flanders as follows.

Image source: Ancestry.co.uk

 

It's interesting to note that whilst his overseas service is continuous, it is split into two date ranges with no change in Regiment/Battalion. On the previous page in the medal roll, there is a 4964 Carter whose dates are split in a similar way. He does have surviving papers, They show that he was mobilised from the Army Reserve and first served at home with the 3/23rd Battalion, being transferred to the 2/23rd Bn for overseas service (arriving at Le Havre on 15.7.1916), then (whilst still presumably at the Infantry Base Depot) transferred to the 1/23rd Bn on 18.8.1916 - joining them in the field on 19th August 1916. I think it probable that John followed the same path, and he was one of the 101 men recorded in the war diary (Ancestry link, National Archives link) as arriving from "Base" on that day. It would seem that he was killed about a month after going into the field. The 142 Infantry Brigade HQ, and 47 Division HQ diaries (Ancestry here and here, or from the National Archives search page) should add context to the events in the Battalion diary, but none are likely to mention John by name.

 

Looking at just a couple of near number men who were originally 3/23rd Bn men, and have surviving records you get:

 

4996 Chalmers - called up 7.3.1916

4998

4999 Chesters - called up 7.3.1916

 

There is good advice on researching a soldier here.

 

Regards

Chris

 

Chris

 

Thank you very much you have given me a base to work from , Its much appreciated I will update the forum if I can gain information

 

Kind Regards

Chris