Mass Grave

[Jon6640]

and properly honouring the men who may be in it.

Hear hear

[Paul Reed]

If the Germans used quicklime on this burial site, as was common practice for bodies gathered from a battlefield and buried en-masse, what do the professional archaeologists consider the state of the remains to be in; and what state any personal items on them which would be needed to lead to an identification?

[Borderman]

Interesting…

Just to be a pain. Unlike the troops at Pheasant Wood he wasn’t given a burial. If any of the mothers of the men who fell at Formelles emails me, I’ll personally pay for the investigation.

An anecdote for your hypothetical question.

It’s first light and bitterly cold. The wind cuts like razor blades. A group of soldiers on the lower slope of a hill are huddled around a friend on the ground. His chest is smashed. He has no hope of reaching the bottom of the hill let alone Ajax. None of them can believe it, his was the best of all of them. Two of them hold him close, they don’t want to let him go. Everyone is so tired, so lost. Files of other soldiers move past going forward. They don’t look, to tired and concentrating on not falling on the scree, caught up in their own personal misery. They don’t need more from these men. They’ve been there and there going there again. A voice calls out for the small group to get closer. One almost starts to move, to lost even to realise what is being asked of him. It is a photographer/reporter who recognizes this pathetic cameo as just the picture to show the folks back home. A striped arm hammers his chest and knocks him to the ground. A boot is placed delicately on his chest and the muzzle of a SLR is pushed into his mouth to the back of his throat. As he lies there gagging, it was explained to him his mistake. He was told he did not have the right. That he had not earned the right and no one else had. The officer there watched, to worn down to care if another round was going to be expended. The only thought in his head was if anyone had any rounds left. Backs were turned on the reporter and he crawls away. The officer was later approached by the man some days later in a wrecked street. He didn’t recognize him. The reporter squirmed, apologized, tried to explain. Freedom of the press, how people had the right to know, how the public would learn of war from his work. The officer said nothing. There was nothing to say. The reporter would never understand, he had stood on the same ground but he had been in a different world.

I guess I’m trying to say that unless they have to be moved because of a motorway or other such unlikely event, then leave them at peace. They have earned that right, they’re with their friends.

Mark the spot and move on.

Dave

[ChrisBryett]

Sorry Chris, that's the bit I just don't get. Why? They are soldiers, buried by soldiers, sharing a grave with their fellow soldiers and have been resting in peace for some time. Along come the civilians and they get dug up. Some might get a name. Some distant relative living in a semi in Indooroopilly gets on the Telly saying they never knew about old Jack but are quite happy to go to his second funeral if the Govt is paying. But the rest get a grave, after hang about in a plastic bag for a couple of years, marked A Soldier of the Great War: Known unto God. Not much 'mateship' in that.

(Of course that's if they are there)

Suppose I must be a bit of a thicky.

Dave

Dave, there is an Australian Defence Force Instruction on Missing in Action presumed killed. Recovery of Remains Australian Defence Force Members which as a matter of Australian Government policy requires remains identified as remains of an ADF member to be buried in a cemetery nominated by the Office of Australian War Graves in conjunction with CWGC.

Of course the plastic bags is a bit emotive. The plastic bags are an important part of separating the skeletons to provide for DNA sampling and naturally burial in individual graves. Its really just a means of sensible transportation.

Why would they need to stay in that environment for "a couple of years"?

[Borderman]

Why would they need to stay in that environment for "a couple of years"?

Lots of numbers have been banded about - 500 odd sets of bones etc.

Collecting DNA from that lot and from possible relatives is not going to be something that’s knocked out in a few weeks.

Me be emotive about plastics bags ……Never

(Thinks - Should have called them bin liners)

Dave

[Borderman]

If the Germans used quicklime on this burial site, as was common practice for bodies gathered from a battlefield and buried en-masse, what do the professional archaeologists consider the state of the remains to be in; and what state any personal items on them which would be needed to lead to an identification?

That is an interesting thought. Never occured to me but seems more than likely.

Dave

[ChrisBryett]

That is an interesting thought. Never occured to me but seems more than likely.

Dave

Dave, I think the point is that no is sure they are there. We keep bumping into this catch 22 situation. No point in a memorial unless you know they are there. If you know they are there then they will be moved to a CWGC cemetery.

As to identity the simple answer is wait and see what is available. Anything else is fairly speculative. This exercise may confirm that they have been safely recovered already. Hopefully its not false negative that is relied upon.

Chris.

[ChrisBryett]

Dave

Jon is not wrong. The grave is there and there is strong circumstancial evidence that it was never cleared in the post-war recovery phase. In that sense it has been identified and the question requiring an answer has been raised. As Ralph says it could become threatened and, most importantly, there are relatives who want to know what happened - the folk of Indooroopilly as you so charmingly put it.

This is not about disturbing a known cemetery it's about investigating a suspected burial site and properly honouring the men who may be in it.

Spot on Martin.

Chris

[Borderman]

Make your mind up Chris!

It's there or it's not.

Proof or conjecture.

Dave

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

I may have missed this point in all of the discussion on this subject but just what do the relatives of the missing men think of all this? Has anyone been shown to be a possible descendant and secure their views?

We can discuss the pros and cons until we are old and grey, I for one would like to know what the people most affected by this would say.

Ralph

[Max]

We can discuss the pros and cons until we are old and grey, I for one would like to know what the people most affected by this would say.

Ralph

I would be very surprised if there are people still around who would be directly affected by this....more likely interested parties.

Andy

[hillgorilla]

We have to remember that there are still people who would be directly affected, they may be old but they still exist. In the Bury Times last week there was a story about an 89 year old man who went to Belgium to visit the grave of his father. I have also personally met others of that generation whose parent was killed in the Great War.

Best wishes,

Hillgorilla

[PBI]

What Solid evidence is available to substantiate the Claims that this Mass Burial Site actually exists..Documents ?,Photos ?,before the Arguing about the pros and Cons of Reburials,Identification,etc,would it not be prudent to first actually establish the existence of this Site once and for all.At the moment all that seems to be available are Rumours and Conjecture.Proof Please

[Crunchy]

The reason there are 410 Australians unidentified in VC Corner is in my opinion because those involved didn't try hard enough. How else do you get 410 all unidentified and the next 5 all identified.

Chris,

I think this claim is somewhat harsh and unfair to those who undertook a monumental task under difficult circumstances. How do we actually know they didn't try hard enough? I think we are being a little unrealistic in our expectations of identification of remains from the Great War – then and now.

The 410 in the mass grave at VC Corner were recovered and interred some four to five years after the event from a battlefield littered with skeletons or bits of them. Many were probably scattered from subsequent shellfire and fighting. The personal identity discs of the day were fibre not metal and many had probably rotted away by the time the remains were recovered - if they were still attached to a whole skeleton. It was also some 85 years ago when the means for identification were not as sophisticated as they are today. Unless there was something on the remains that identified a complete skeleton, what other means were available? Dental records possibly but how good where they in the 1920's - I haven't seen any on the files at the naa

Nearly 2000 Australians were killed at Fromelles - and most of them lay either in no mans land or behind the German parapet after the battle. It is not surprising that 410 + of those recovered are unidentified. I don't suppose you or I would have been any more successful in identifying them if we had been given the task in the 1920's.

Even with today's means of identification it is very difficult, so let's not be too sure that any in the mass grave near Pheasant Wood are going to be identified. It is a massive task and where do you start if you don’t know which men are actually in the grave.

They are having enough difficulty with positively identifying the five found in the Ypres salient last September and they were buried at a recorded Aid Post cemetery behind the behind the lines. The only means available is through the records of the cemeteries in the vicinity, not through any identification on the remains, and possibly DNA with families of those men recorded as being buried there, but not recovered. Problem is the bodies were found roughly equidistant between two recorded cemeteries and they are not sure who they might be. They are going through a long process of elimination.

The War Graves registration units went to a great deal of trouble trying to identify soldiers' remains after the war and the CWGC did not and will not put a name to remains unless they can be positively identified. Positive identification is not as easy as some think it is.

I have a relation who is an unknown and it is highly likely his remains are in the Nek cemetery but he still remains an unknown with no gravestone. While we would like to be able to visit a marked grave we accept the fact that he lies somewhere in the general area without being miffed about it. He certainly hasn't lost his identity in our eyes.

regards

Chris

[PBI]

If said mass Burial Has been known about for a deal of time wht hasnt anything been done before to prove/disprove once and for all if said Burial Site actually exists ?? :blink:Regarding the IDing of a large amount of remains,in reality just not feasible due to circumstances previously discussed in this Thread.Roughly 20 Years Ago on the Somme Battlefield near Ovillers the Mass Burial of 80 British Soldiers and 3 German Soldiers was uncovered,all these men are now interred at Terlincthun Military Cemetery in a Mass Grave,i am sure that the CWGC would have done their best to ID these Men,but the ravages of Time took their toll on the Remains.The only positive IDs being the Nationality of the Men.

[ChrisBryett]

Make your mind up Chris!

It's there or it's not.

Proof or conjecture.

Dave

Dave that is the point only a non intrusive test dig will tell. No one know if they are there. There must be a test dig.

Chris

[ChrisBryett]

Ralph

I would be very surprised if there are people still around who would be directly affected by this....more likely interested parties.

Andy

Well good question Ralph and a surprise for Andy there are relatives and they do want to know where their relative is. There were several reported in our nation press recently.

On this forum last year a great niece explained how her family was greatly affected by this event and how she wanted to find out what had happened to her relative.

There is a growing need within Australians to find the answers to these questions. The numbers attending our ANZAC parades is growing not dwindling.

Chris

[ChrisBryett]

We have to remember that there are still people who would be directly affected, they may be old but they still exist. In the Bury Times last week there was a story about an 89 year old man who went to Belgium to visit the grave of his father. I have also personally met others of that generation whose parent was killed in the Great War.

Best wishes,

Hillgorilla

Well put, in fact I know of a woman who's elder brother served and was lost at Fromelles. She is over 100 now.

Chris.

[ChrisBryett]

What Solid evidence is available to substantiate the Claims that this Mass Burial Site actually exists..Documents ?,Photos ?,before the Arguing about the pros and Cons of Reburials,Identification,etc,would it not be prudent to first actually establish the existence of this Site once and for all.At the moment all that seems to be available are Rumours and Conjecture.Proof Please

PBI, the Australian Army have convened a Panel of Investigation into this site. They have formed the opinion that there is sufficiently compelling evidence.

Sadly, the British Government haven't done much about investigating the Brits that were buried here. The question is are they still here?

PBI there was a lot of evidence put before the Panel.

The Australian Government is sufficiently moved.

Minister Billson said in his media release of 7 February 2007:

“The panel’s exhaustive research and deliberations found the evidence at hand supported the conclusion that Australian dead from the battle were buried at the Pheasant Wood site, however, there were dissenting views on whether or not those soldiers were subsequently re-buried in other war cemeteries."

Chris

[Max]

Well put, in fact I know of a woman who's elder brother served and was lost at Fromelles. She is over 100 now.

My Great Aunt Gladys, the daughter of the man in my signature is alive and well, and I know she would love to know where her dad is. However, she has lived long enough and is pragmatic enough to realise that you cannot dig up half of France and Belgium on the off chance that he might be found.

Andy

[ChrisBryett]

The War Graves registration units went to a great deal of trouble trying to identify soldiers' remains after the war and the CWGC did not and will not put a name to remains unless they can be positively identified. Positive identification is not as easy as some think it is.

Now this I agree with with a twist, perhaps "postitively" should be replaced with "more probably". I think postively is a bit steep. There has to be a rule.

Chris there are occasional dental records. There was an identification in the Melbourne Gaol site a few years ago which used NAA files containing dental records.

As for recoveries to VC Corner as I understand it they were recovered after Bean walked the site after the Armistice. That is about 2 years after McCay left them there. Chris my point here is that if you find 5 in the same area later than the 410 and get all 5 identities then how credibile is it to miss 410 earlier.

Chris, extensive research leads to the conclusion that the identity of those in or were in the grave, are likely known. If you can quarantine the Australians then you have a chance of identification.

The Brits unfortunately don't have a champion and therefore the research is not as comprehensive.

The Westhoeck 6 (not 5 now) have had DNA samples taken and the Australian Army are calling for relatives to come forward. The WW1 network in Australia is working to source these folk. If you are following that story the Army rightly has sent the battalion patches to a laboratory for testing. Chris the Minister in a recent media release named the likely Diggers. Its something like there is 7 likely and there are 6 sets remains.

Personally I don't subscribe to giving up just because it's difficult.

Chris I can't comment on the way you remember your relative at the Nek. That's is very rightly for you. It would be entirely wrong of me to comment.

Chris.

[PBI]

PBI, the Australian Army have convened a Panel of Investigation into this site. They have formed the opinion that there is sufficiently compelling evidence.

Sadly, the British Government haven't done much about investigating the Brits that were buried here. The question is are they still here?

PBI there was a lot of evidence put before the Panel.

The Australian Government is sufficiently moved.

Minister Billson said in his media release of 7 February 2007:

“The panel’s exhaustive research and deliberations found the evidence at hand supported the conclusion that Australian dead from the battle were buried at the Pheasant Wood site, however, there were dissenting views on whether or not those soldiers were subsequently re-buried in other war cemeteries."

Chris

Thanks for that Chris.

[ChrisBryett]

i am sure that the CWGC would have done their best to ID these Men,but the ravages of Time took their toll on the Remains.The only positive IDs being the Nationality of the Men.

Then how did they identify 5 out of 5 later and not one of the 410 earlier?

Chris.

[ChrisBryett]

My Great Aunt Gladys, the daughter of the man in my signature is alive and well, and I know she would love to know where her dad is. However, she has lived long enough and is pragmatic enough to realise that you cannot dig up half of France and Belgium on the off chance that he might be found.

Andy

Thanks Andy, you make a good point. If anyone was suggesting digging up half of France to find these fellows I would take the same pragmatic view, and rightly so.

There is more than a history mystery here. There is closure for many families. I can't speak for the Brits but they have a chance too. This thread is not about (with respect) Great Aunt Gladys' dad or any other person other than those who were buried at Pheasant Wood (be they Brits or Aussies) and their relatives. They're the one's I feel for.

Chris.

[ChrisBryett]

Thanks for that Chris.

Your very welcome.

Chris.