Mass Grave

[ChrisBryett]

Very interesting - but I'm not sure I understand the practicalities of this.

Are you saying that said trench would be used to view the bones in section?

i.e. non intrusive to the pit (if it exists) but very much intrusive to something else.

As a general point, isn't all excavation intrusive?

Simon, perhaps I didn't full explain. The remains are in the burial pits (suspected) so a trench is put in leading to the edge of the pit. Standing in the trench the side of the pit is open and observed.

The pit remains undisturbed. Certainly the ground where the trench is put is disturbed but not pit.

Chris.

[ChrisBryett]

Hi Chris.

Peter and I have had a number of discussions on Fromelles and I am certain you are misinterpreting his words.

I will discuss it with him and get back to you.

Regards

Chris

Chris that would be good. Please see if he can give some primary references or at least find the Bean account? Thanks, I will look forward to the outcome.

Regards,

Chris.

[Mat McLachlan]

Chris,

I agree with you that it doesn't seem logical that identified and unidentified remains may have been seperated at Fromelles, but I think most of us would agree that logic doesn't play much of a part in the distribution of graves after the war.

Just down the road at Rue-Petillon Cemetery is the grave of L/Cpl Percy Barclay of the 10th Battalion. He was killed at Meteren on April 24 1918 and buried by the Germans in the town. After the war he was reinterred in Rue-Petillon - 25kms from Meteren. There must be a dozens of CWGC cemeteries between Meteren and Rue-Petillon, so we'd logically assume Barclay would be buried near where he fell. Obviously not the case, though.

My point is, even though it doesn't seem particularly logical to us now, I can conceive of a situation where the battlefield clearance teams buried ID'd bodies in one cemetery and unidentified in another. In fact, we have conclusive proof of this - not a single ID'd body from Fromelles was buried in VC Corner. It seems to me that, much more likely than the graves units doing shoddy work identifying the 410, they simply decided that the identified bodies would be sent elsewhere and the remaining unidentified bodies would go to VC Corner.

We seem to assume that VC Corner Cemetery is a bit of an anomoly - after creating the cemetery, the graves units looked around and realised that every grave was unidentified, so they decided not to build headstones, etc. It could be the case, however, that it was decided VC Corner would represent the missing of the battle during its construction, and that only unidentified bodies would be buried there. I don't have any evidence of this, but this actually seems more likely to me than simply fluking a whole cemetery with not a single ID'd grave.

Cheers,

Mat

[Crunchy]

Pedersen's book on Fromelles at pag 122 says:

"As none of the remains of the 410 dead collected around it in 1918-1919 could be identifed, they were interred in two areas, each marked by a flate white chross, either side of a central grass avenue."

Although not specific it seems to head away from your line of thought.

Hi Chris,

I spoke with Peter Pedersen this evening. His words in Fromelles were reflecting what is written in the preface to the register at the VC Corner cemetery and shouldn't be taken as indicating that these were the only Australians recovered from the battlefield in that area in 1918 -1919. His view, and he has graciously allowed me to share them in this forum, is that more Australians were recovered from the battlefield at the time the 410 were recovered and those that were identified were placed in other cemeteries. IHO, the 410 were the those that could not be identified using the means available at the time and were interred together in a seperate cemetery. One of them may well be his own Great Uncle. He feels that there is no consistent approach to the burial of the dead and some were buried in cemeteries miles away from where they were killed despite there being closer cemeteries to the place of death. He doesn't support the view that these were a group of Australians that were simply collected from one part of the battlefield and placed in VC Corner cemetery.

Cheers

Chris

[ChrisBryett]

Hi Mat,

They get buried in the nearest open cemetery so far as I know. So the issue is which cemetery is open and closest. It's apparently that simple. I don't know Barclay's case nor is it relevant to VC Corner which is in No-Man's Land and not 25kms away. I would assume that Rue Petillon Cemetery was at least one of the closest open cemeteries at the time. Humans being humans it would be hard to imagine carting a body further than you needed to?

Mat I've seen some of the after Battle recovery map references for Fromelles and to which cemetery they were taken (not dates) and I don't think your idea of identified to the left and unidenfied to the right works.

So you say that they can be illogical but not shoddy?

I think you are jumping along a bit. You say that because all in VC Corner are unidentified therefore the identifieds from the same source went elsewhere.

Bean may tell us but my recollection is that all that he found became unidentified and in VC Corner not that there were others identified from the same source sent off to other cemeteries to ensure that VC Corner was left for Aussies who were unidentified. That would be a peculiar policy. I know colonials were treated differently but not like that?

I have sent a note to CWGC to see what turns up and will report the result. Otherwise we will spin in circles forever.

There is no evidence "that it was decided VC Corner would represent the missing of the battle during its construction, and that only unidentified bodies would be buried there." Why stop at 410 they could have put all the unidentifeds in there. Then I would agree with this proposition. Not a bad thought really. I would warm up to that idea. All of one country's unidentifieds from a single Battle in one cemetery - just for them. I like that - really. But I don't think so.

Chris.

[ChrisBryett]

Hi Chris,

I spoke with Peter Pedersen this evening. His words in Fromelles were reflecting what is written in the preface to the register at the VC Corner cemetery and shouldn't be taken as indicating that these were the only Australians recovered from the battlefield in that area in 1918 -1919. His view, and he has graciously allowed me to share them in this forum, is that more Australians were recovered from the battlefield at the time the 410 were recovered and those that were identified were placed in other cemeteries. IHO, the 410 were the those that could not be identified using the means available at the time and were interred together in a seperate cemetery. One of them may well be his own Great Uncle. He feels that there is no consistent approach to the burial of the dead and some were buried in cemeteries miles away from where they were killed despite there being closer cemeteries to the place of death. He doesn't support the view that these were a group of Australians that were simply collected from one part of the battlefield and placed in VC Corner cemetery.

Cheers

Chris

Hi Chris, well that is helpful. Does Peter have any primary source materials to support that view or is it a gut feeling? Hate to be a pedant but we may as well drill down on this one.

Thanks and regards,

Chris.

[ChrisBryett]

Hi Chris,

When you next speak to Peter would you ask him where he got his cemetery numbers from for his book "Fromelles - French Flanders"?

Thanks

Chris.

[Crunchy]

Hi Chris from Sydney,

You seem to be basing your hypothesis on Bean's words. Can you please give us the reference from which you are obtained Bean's account?

Having done some research on the AIF I have found on occasions that Bean doesn't match what other primary sources say and on at least one occasion he misrepresents a record of interview he took from an officer who was in command of the action he is writing about. This is not to say that Bean deliberately falsified the account, rather, that like all of us, Bean made mistakes as well.

Nonetheless, I would like to read Bean's account

regards

Chris

[ChrisBryett]

Hi Chris from Sydney,

You seem to be basing your hypothesis on Bean's words. Can you please give us the reference from which you are obtained Bean's account?

Having done some research on the AIF I have found on occasions that Bean doesn't match what other primary sources say and on at least one occasion he misrepresents a record of interview he took from an officer who was in command of the action he is writing about. This is not to say that Bean deliberately falsified the account, rather, that like all of us, Bean made mistakes as well.

Nonetheless, I would like to read Bean's account

regards

Chris

Chris,

You seem to miss my point. What are Peter's primary sources?

I would be loathe to see Bean replaced by Peter.

I have said that I will look for the Bean references and asked Peter to do the same.

Can we assume he has none?

Chris.

[roel22]

We've reached page 10 by now.

Just think of all the digging that could have been done since this thread started march 5...

[Crunchy]

Chris,

You seem to miss my point. What are Peter's primary sources?

I would be loathe to see Bean replaced by Peter.

I have said that I will look for the Bean references and asked Peter to do the same.

Can we assume he has none?

Chris.

Chris in Sydney,

I hadn't seen your previous post before submitting Peter's opinion to you so I didn't miss your point at all.

BTW, this is not a debate about Peter Pedersen's credentials as a historian - he is highly regarded as such amongst other historians and his Monash as a Military Commander is regarded as the benchmark on the subject.

If you read what I said, Peter stated he was reflecting the words in the preface to the Register at VC Corner cemetery. He stated that he did not seek to portray that the 410 were the only ones found in 1918 1919, which you sought to portray him as implying in post # 166,. He believes more were recovered from the battlefield in that period, some of whom were identified. This is the point that Mat was making and on which you cited Peter’s work to suggest Mat was wrong.

His book Fromelles is concerned with the battle itself, the current cemeteries in the area and some suggested battlefield walks, not about how or when the remains of the dead were recovered.

His sources for all the cemetery numbers in his book have nothing to do with our particular debate. I do know that he visited every cemetery he mentions and recorded the numbers buried and the details from the cemetery registers and the graves themselves. The details in his book are concerned with the cemeteries as they are today.

You were the one who quoted Pedersen to support your case in the first place. Now that his opinion does not accord with your views and that he says he was not seeking to portray the 410 as the only ones found at the time, you seem to be implying that he is no longer a credible historian; whereas he was credible for you to cite him yesterday.

Sorry to be pedantic but let's drill down on your claims rather than Peter's opinion.

In post # 120 you say

The reason there are 410 Australians unidentified in VC Corner is in my opinion because those involved didn't try hard enough. How else do you get 410 all unidentified and the next 5 all identified.

In this you clearly state that the next five were all identified and use this to make your assertion that people didn't try hard enough with the previous 410.

You say much the same in post # 146

my point here is that if you find 5 in the same area later than the 410 and get all 5 identities then how credibile is it to miss 410 earlier.

and again in post # 175

I understand that many may leave some material behind but 410 found in likely one run with any? Not one? The fact that the next 5 were identified show what can be done in the context of that era.

Yet from the information you provided in post # 162, this is not true. They were actually five of some 74 others who were found between 1919 and 1930, not the next five. Of the 74 in your post, 67 were not identified either, including the four Australians found with Sitlington in 1927. The last of your next five was found in 1930. So the very basis of your assertion is incorrect.

Your own post (# 162) of one of the first two of your next five found says he was found with other Australians who were unidentified.

818 Pte. W.J. Coleman - Found Dec 1919 at 36.I.21.b.1.6. Identified 1927 after damaged Id Disc deciphered (found alongside 2655 Pte. J.J. Purcell, 4636 Pte. M. McLean and 63 unidentified British/Australian soldiers).

You argue that the 410 were the only ones found at the time of the initial recovery and this is based on something Bean wrote but you can't cite the reference or what it actually says. How credible is that?

I think we should wait for you to provide the hard evidence to prove your assertion that

the 410 unidentifieds were the only ones found in the initial recovery and that people didn't try hard enough to identify them, because at the moment it is speculation. You may be right, but your case is not proven yet.

Cheers

Chris

[roel22]

Only one way to find out...

[ChrisBryett]

We've reached page 10 by now.

Just think of all the digging that could have been done since this thread started march 5...

You are right. Good point.

Chris.

[ChrisBryett]

Hi Chris,

Equally there is no attack on Peter's credentials or credibility as a historian.

My concern is as to the basis of his opinion on this point. A totally different issue. Peter's words are slightly different to those in the preface and capable of supporting the inference that I suggested. However, as we now know from your investigation, Peter is merely trying to restate the preface to the register, well so be it.

The issue may be resolved by the CWGC response.

Peter's book also seeks to give information about the numbers in the various cemeteries and does cover, at least, the date and circumstance of identificaiton of Major Roy Harrison at p121. Peter states that Roy Harrison was found in 1927 when in fact:

Major Roy Harrison - Found Nov 1921 at 36.N.10.b.15.05. Identified by 1924 from surname found inscribed on silver cigarette case found with the body.

Having said that the book other than several errors in the cemeteries section is a good book,a good summary of events and I see no other error. Unfortunately we are dealing with the cemeteries area of things although it's not main point of this thread.

My point in raising it was highlight the need to not do a shoddy job with those fellows at Pheasant Wood and we shouldn't allow the opportunities to identify them to be mishandled or just not utilized. That point remains a central issue regardless of whether my comment about VC Corner identifications is right.

"You were the one who quoted Pedersen to support your case in the first place. Now that his opinion does not accord with your views and that he says he was not seeking to portray the 410 as the only ones found at the time, you seem to be implying that he is no longer a credible historian; whereas he was credible for you to cite him yesterday."

I was wondering when that would come up. I merely quoted him. No author has a monopoly on the truth and many are generally right but wrong on a point. That doesnt detract from the overall worth of the book nor the credibility on other matters. I can't think of any person who is right all the time. I'm happy to concede that his being wrong on any one point doesn't make him wrong on some other point as well. Each can be tested and thus the comment about primary sources rather than just a feeling. There are many people on this forum capable of finding the truth given the references.

Chris, I concede that the reference to the next 5 does not articulate the position adequately. In 1925 the first VC Corner Cemetery Register was published. In 1987 a second. There are 1299 missing some found and unidentifed some still missing. There are 5 more identified in 1987 register reducing the unidentified list. That is the 5 I refer to. They are the next 5 to be identified but as you correctly point out not the next five bodies found. Thank you for the correction.

I don't think you are a pedant at all you make a good point. Others were discovered and remained unidentifed. I wonder where they went? Not to VC Corner?

I agree it needs some real evidence to point it in one direction or the other. I was hopeful Peter might have some primary materials on the point.

When I find the Bean reference or get a reply from the CWGC I will post it.

regards,

Chris

[Crunchy]

My point in raising it was highlight the need to not do a shoddy job with those fellows at Pheasant Wood and we shouldn't allow the opportunities to identify them to be mishandled or just not utilized.

Chris,

You are quite right to ensure these men are treated with the respect they are due, if in fact they are still in the mass grave. It's not good enough to ignore them, IMO the matter needs to be invesitigated and resolved. If they are there we need to ensure they are interred with dignity in a properly marked cemetery and where we can identify them, we should make an effort to do so.

I have tried to find Bean's reference to the 410 in VC Corner in the OH Chapter on Fromelles, but no luck.

Cheers

Chris

[ChrisBryett]

Thanks for trying Chris. I'm working my way through Corfield's account. That's an effort but the refrence should be there otherwise in addition to my own copy of Bean I might try an electronic search online at AWM and maybe Ellis. What does "OH" mean? Thanks,

Cheers

Chris.

[Crunchy]

Chris,

OH = Official History. More fully Official History of Australia in the War of 1914 -18. Fromelles is in Vol 111, The AIF in France 1916, Chapters XII and XIII.

Cheers

Chris

[Simon R]

The remains are in the burial pits (suspected) so a trench is put in leading to the edge of the pit. Standing in the trench the side of the pit is open and observed.

The pit remains undisturbed.

Chris.

So - the idea is to see the remains in section then, I see.

Presuming you can find the pit in the first place.

[ChrisBryett]

So - the idea is to see the remains in section then, I see.

Presuming you can find the pit in the first place.

Yes that's it. Finding the pits will not be a problem.

Chris.

[towisuk]

Great discussion on this topic fellow forum members!, with many differing viewpoints.

Its going to be interesting to see the results of the ground scan radar when it is undertaken to determine "whats under the sod"

Those of us who live a ferry ride away from France and Flanders are lucky, and If we can take any photos of the progress of this topic next to pheasant wood I feel our forum members further afield i.e. Australia etc would appreciate it.

It must be quite frustrating living on the other side of the globe and having an interest in the Great War

when distant members of the forum are constantly reading of our jaunts around the battlefields!!

My own trips take place between October and March when the cost of the ferry crossing from Hull is at "Bargain prices " which means I can cram in a few trips for the price of one summer crossing.

Also during these times the fields are generally bare of any crops which makes exploring the trench lines etc much easier.

Regards to all

Tom

[PBI]

I will be visiting the Fromelles Site in September,along with Chris Noble and Mruk,it will be interesting to see what has been carried out at the Site (If Anything).Is there a proposed Date for the Investigation of the site to take Place ?..The Longer the Delays,the more chance that the Grave Robbers/Scavengers will visit the Site and plunder it.

[towisuk]

I'll be there next in early October, as I mentioned in my previous post, with forum members pretty well in the area throughout the year we can keep everyone informed of progress on the Mass Grave topic.

Regards

Tom

[PBI]

I'll be there next in early October, as I mentioned in my previous post, with forum members pretty well in the area throughout the year we can keep everyone informed of progress on the Mass Grave topic.

Regards

Tom

If an Emergency arises were a Forum Member is required to be at the Site,i can be there within 3 Hours.

[Borderman]

If an Emergency arises were a Forum Member is required to be at the Site,i can be there within 3 Hours.

PBI IS GO

[ChrisBryett]

I will be visiting the Fromelles Site in September,along with Chris Noble and Mruk,it will be interesting to see what has been carried out at the Site (If Anything).Is there a proposed Date for the Investigation of the site to take Place ?..The Longer the Delays,the more chance that the Grave Robbers/Scavengers will visit the Site and plunder it.

Best guess on GPR is next month...but it is only a guess...who knows for sure?

Chris