Mass Grave

[Max]

How would you feel if your relatives were disintered in the name of progress having given their lives for their country?

My great grandfather Sam probably still lies in front of the Hohenzollern redoubt after being killed in October 1915 and, speaking personally, after all these years thats where I think he should remain. Ralph Whitehead (forum member) and his group did a tv program a couple of years ago at the Redoubt where they found 4 Germans and the remnants of a British soldier roughly at the junction of Big Willie and West Face trenches, just where my GGrandad had been reported killed. I was sick to my stomach with the thought that these men had disturbed my grandad...what I am trying to say is that not everyone feels the same way as you Tom, even though I respect and understand your opinion.

Andy

[PBI]

Brits in there as well!?!

I'll get me' wheelbarrow!

Seriously though. If the remains of fallen commonwealth soldiers were found, how quickly would CWGC or other Govt (Brit & Oz) move?

Has something like this happened before?

Dave

http://www.aftermathww1.com/lincolns.asp

[Jon6640]

Max and PBI,

I respect your standpoint, there seems to be two schools of thought developing which in polarized terms are (1) Get the field dug, find out if any men are buried there and move them to a CWGC cemetery and give an 'appropriate' burial. (2) Let them rest as they have for 90 years. Amongst these views are additional valid points such as it's the farmers field to do with as he/she wishes.

I take on board Max's point re his Grandfather at the Hohenzollern Redoubtand have sympathy for his feelings, but if it were my relative I would feel even worse if his remains were dug up and damaged by the digger bucket of a JCB driven by an unthinking/uncaring builder.

I don't know the cost of land nor the potential cost of a dig and removal but wouldn't a third way be for the relevant Government(s) to buy the field, have it recognised as a war grave and if possible have a memorial listing those believed to be buried there.

[Martin Brown]

My great grandfather Sam probably still lies in front of the Hohenzollern redoubt after being killed in October 1915 and, speaking personally, after all these years thats where I think he should remain. Ralph Whitehead (forum member) and his group did a tv program a couple of years ago at the Redoubt where they found 4 Germans and the remnants of a British soldier roughly at the junction of Big Willie and West Face trenches, just where my GGrandad had been reported killed. I was sick to my stomach with the thought that these men had disturbed my grandad...what I am trying to say is that not everyone feels the same way as you Tom, even though I respect and understand your opinion.

Andy

Max

While I respect your point of view can I say that I led the team at Serre when we found 2 Germans and identified them. Their Grandchildren felt very differently to you and are pleased to know what happened. Indeed Jakob Hones's son was still alive when the identification was made and he was pleased to know what happened to his father.

In addition, I would say that the Hohenzollern was, at that time, threatened by development and our work was designed to provide information about that to the French authorities, the TV happened to be working with us at the time; they didn't commission the programme (which was repeated last night on Discovery). Without our work to back up claims made in other quarters the whole site might have gone for landfill.

Martin

[Martin Brown]

Max and PBI,

I don't know the cost of land nor the potential cost of a dig and removal but wouldn't a third way be for the relevant Government(s) to buy the field, have it recognised as a war grave and if possible have a memorial listing those believed to be buried there.

Jon

I think this idea has much to commend it. However there is family pressure in Australia to answer the questions and I think it is important that if anyone is going to investigate the Fromelles claims then it needs to be done to the highest scientific/forensic/archaeological standards, rather than digging a hole to see who's in there.

Martin

[Max]

I take on board Max's point re his Grandfather at the Hohenzollern Redoubtand have sympathy for his feelings, but if it were my relative I would feel even worse if his remains were dug up and damaged by the digger bucket of a JCB driven by an unthinking/uncaring builder.

In my GGrandads particular case the fighting around and in front of the redoubt was so heavy during the latter part of 1915, and subsequent intensive mining activity would almost certainly mean that he is not likely to be in one piece anyway. The program I alluded to earlier showed the discovery of several fairly intact Germans (one who they positively identified), but only the "fragments" of a British soldier. One of the team actually showed a British boot with the foot still inside....this is what madec me feel nauseous at the thought that it could have been my Grandad. As I said, each to his or her own.

Andy

[Max]

Max

While I respect your point of view can I say that I led the team at Serre when we found 2 Germans and identified them. Their Grandchildren felt very differently to you and are pleased to know what happened. Indeed Jakob Hones's son was still alive when the identification was made and he was pleased to know what happened to his father.

In addition, I would say that the Hohenzollern was, at that time, threatened by development and our work was designed to provide information about that to the French authorities, the TV happened to be working with us at the time; they didn't commission the programme (which was repeated last night on Discovery). Without our work to back up claims made in other quarters the whole site might have gone for landfill.

Martin

Martin

I am in no way criticising your teams work, on the contrary, the program showed that the whole exercise was conducted in a completely professional and sympathetic manner. Having been to the Redoubt on several occasions I was/am fully aware that the site was being used as a landfill, and had been for a very long time.

Andy

[Jon6640]

If anyone is going to investigate the Fromelles claims then it needs to be done to the highest scientific/forensic/archaeological standards, rather than digging a hole to see who's in there.

Martin

Martin,

I totally agree, please excuse my phraseology, I was trying to define the opposing views, if I caused confusion or offence then please accept my apologies.

Jon

[Borderman]

Jon

I think this idea has much to commend it. However there is family pressure in Australia to answer the questions and I think it is important that if anyone is going to investigate the Fromelles claims then it needs to be done to the highest scientific/forensic/archaeological standards, rather than digging a hole to see who's in there.

Martin

Dear me, such a use of emotive language, might as well join in.

So Martin, as an archaeologist you whole heartedly disapprove of test pits? Odd that. As a test pit would disprove or substantiate the claims being made and would then justify tax payers money being spent on a full investigation. A figure of $AU150,000 has been banded about, how true that is I don't know, but that would certainly buy this field and pay for a cross of sacrifice if it were known that the remains of Allied soldiers lay there. This would not be the only resting place of soldiers who names or even numbers were not known.

That is of course if the money isn't spent on archaeologists rooting about amongst the bones of the fallen doing their 'headshaking/soulful/knowing' pieces to camera. Good telly that, we get to be voyeurs of their nakedness as someone scrapes their bones clean with a trowel and points with barely concealed excitement at the massive bone injury which clearly caused his death (time for another soulful headshake to camera). Can't wait.

Find out if they are there with as little disturbance as possible and mark the site with a cross. Allow the farmer to graze the field as he has done for 90 odd years. Many might think that these soldiers deserve to rest in peace.

[Martin Brown]

Dear me, such a use of emotive language, might as well join in.

So Martin, as an archaeologist you whole heartedly disapprove of test pits? Odd that. As a test pit would disprove or substantiate the claims being made and would then justify tax payers money being spent on a full investigation. A figure of $AU150,000 has been banded about, how true that is I don't know, but that would certainly buy this field and pay for a cross of sacrifice if it were known that the remains of Allied soldiers lay there. This would not be the only resting place of soldiers who names or even numbers were not known.

That is of course if the money isn't spent on archaeologists rooting about amongst the bones of the fallen doing their 'headshaking/soulful/knowing' pieces to camera. Good telly that, we get to be voyeurs of their nakedness as someone scrapes their bones clean with a trowel and points with barely concealed excitement at the massive bone injury which clearly caused his death (time for another soulful headshake to camera). Can't wait.

Find out if they are there with as little disturbance as possible and mark the site with a cross. Allow the farmer to graze the field as he has done for 90 odd years. Many might think that these soldiers deserve to rest in peace.

Firstly I didn't think I was being emotive but if that was the case I apologise to anyone offended.

However for the next few paragraphs I will be blunt...

Test pits are fine and dandy for some circumstances. It's horses for coourses, as my 20 years in professional archaeology have taught me! They are not terribly appropriate for a case like this as they will bisturb the soil, start the decay process once again (inbcluding other organcis, such as papers, textiles, as well as bones) and possibly open the site to unofficial disturbance. The GPR survey will do the same job as the test pits without disturbing the ground or the bones, if they are there and still leave the cash for the memorial. Personally I would be happy to see them left and commemmorated there but as I have said there is pressure from families to answer questions and if the political decision is to go that way then let's do it properly, for heaven's sake. In respect of the cost I cannot comment. I have not spoken with anyone connected to this quote and do not know what their brief was nor what they have costed.

Now klet me address some disparaging comments about my profession. Firstly the TV imposes it's own production values and we go along with them to an extent to tell a fascinating story of the human past. That said, I would not want to see Fromelles filmed in this way as the dynamic would be different. FYI Although the programme was called "Finding the Fallen" we never set out to prospect for bodies. Personally I think that's unethical unless you are answering a specific question, which would be the case at Fromelles. Nevertheless when we found bodies we treated them with utmost respect and threw every technique possible at them to get identifications and identities.

Finally I might ask what's wrong with showing the archaeological/forensic evidence for a shell-burst that killed a man? Isn't that what war is all about? Or don't "we" want to see that. Personally I am all for letting the general public know what it was about and something like that brings it home in the way that neither a Hollywood film nor a spun news report never will. Incidentally, at Towton there are lots of Wars of the Roses casualties with nasty headwounds that have been all over the TV, is that any different?

Martin

[PBI]

I have the Programe about the Excavations at the Loos Site,very interesting it was to,but again the Grave Robbers/Scavengers struck in the Dead of Night at the Dig Site and plundered the Remains.IF the Fromelles Site is to be investigated,it is not going to be as simple as many think,there will have to be some Form of Security in place 24 Hours a Day whilst investigations take place,then there is the logistical problem of Feeding and watering Security and Archaeologists alike,its not going to be a simple case of nipping out to the nearest Bar for a Beer and a Baguette and returning to Dig,then packing up and going Home at the end of the Day.This Dig,if it ever takes place,will be a big affair,but firstly...the question to be resolved is,are there actually any remains on the Site,or is the whole Mass Burial Scenario,just another Myth of the Great War ?.

[PBI]

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=h...l%3Den%26sa%3DG

[ChrisBryett]

There are competing views in Australia about such recoveries. Some take the view expressed by returning Diggers that their mates should be left in the fields where they lay.

Unfortunately, that doesn't take into account building freeways, roads and buildings. Even peaceful use of the land for agriculture turns up skulls etc.

The only guarantee of Resting In Peace is to be in a cemetery and even then some are moved by way of concentration or accommodate development. But at least that is the movement of a coffin.

I am of the view that identification is not achieved we fall short of the mark. These Australians are known by name due to extensive research.

Family members do want to know if their relatives are in those pits.

A non intrusive dig (up to the edge of the pit) by mass grave experts is the only absolute way to do that. No dig is currently approved only ground penetrating radar. Whilst we are grateful that our Government has taken an interest in this site its unfortunate that it has chosen this path when for the money an non instrusive dig would have been completed with change and we would all know. GPR only on this site may produce a false negative.

Once bodies are found procedures are put in motion. If they can be identified as Australians our Army has the obligation to recovery them and will rebury them in the closest open CWGC cemetery.

Obtaining DNA samples during that process and ensuring that they are given separate graves (as best this can be achieved) will give the best chance of identification. Some may be identified quickly others in years to come. It doesn't matter when they are identified but that the chance of identification is preserved. The cost of sampling the soldiers DNA is minimal and there is a decent chance of getting DNA from them. There are too many "Known unto God" already.

An intersting question already raised is what about the Brits that were buried at this site? Will the British Government fall into travelling along the same GPR path? What is Britain doing about its fallen?

Chris.

[towisuk]

As far as I can see, the tv program that Martin & others take part in where bodies are recovered be it intentionally or unexpectedly during a dig can only be a good thing.

Using the media of television brings home to a far greater audience than we can ever acheive on this forum alone, the cost and sacrifice of the Great War paid by all countries involved.

Another problem most people have, is that they will never have the chance to ever see the Fields of France and Flanders. I for one am extremely lucky in that it is only an overnight ferry ride for me to be at Tyne Cot by 9.30am. Surley if we can help others from distant lands see what we see through our eyes, we are doing a sterling job on the forum. I know that one of the most popular sites on the forum is Franz's Digger activities, proving that people want to see and learn.

Keep up the good work Martin, I for one look forward to seeing any television programmes that are made in the future that deal with the archeaology of the Great War.

Regards

Tom

[Martin Brown]

A non intrusive dig (up to the edge of the pit) by mass grave experts is the only absolute way to do that. No dig is currently approved only ground penetrating radar. Whilst we are grateful that our Government has taken an interest in this site its unfortunate that it has chosen this path when for the money an non instrusive dig would have been completed with change and we would all know. GPR only on this site may produce a false negative.

Once bodies are found procedures are put in motion. If they can be identified as Australians our Army has the obligation to recovery them and will rebury them in the closest open CWGC cemetery.

Chris is correct and expresses it better than I. Once the dig has shown them to be there you need to be ready to roll, not just put a marker up or designate the cemetery.

Thanks to PBI for his comments too. He is spot on about security.

Best

Martin

Thank you Tom, on behalf of all of us.

[Borderman]

Nicely put Martin.

I agree if it has to be done it should be done professionally.

Sorry, but I didn’t mention the name of a specific television programme, although if you feel that my view fits the bill that’s fine. Can’t help feeling that it was an unfortunate title for a programme considering that was the last thing you set out to do.

I am a little confused though, which sadly probably has something to do with my advancing years, are you saying that showing the public the broken bones of a man explains what war is all about? Sort of a public service? Or is it to explain to the congenitally stupid what steel at high velocity does to flesh and bones? And who on earth is the “we”? Could the Towton ‘thing’ be that few of the “we” feel related to the remains? Where as there are many of the “us” who are possibly related to the disarticulated thigh bones being viewed. Surely to get the point across you need to go digging at Blue Beach, that’ll do it.

Perhaps, and I’m not an expert on ratings etc, but if a mass grave is dug up with the TV cameras there, maybe we could phone in and vote one out. Then they get put in a glass presentation case for the “we” to goggle at?

Far better than Hollywood.

[PBI]

Martin,regarding the Security of the Site,i am sure that you would find no end of Volunteers from the Forum who would gladly give up some of their time to provide on site security..put me at the Top of the List.As a Security Consultant this would be my Forte.Regards.Ps the TV Series FINDING THE FALLEN is currently being shown on DISCOVERY CIVILISATION.

[Max]

Martin,regarding the Security of the Site,i am sure that you would find no end of Volunteers from the Forum who would gladly give up some of their time to provide on site security..put me at the Top of the List.As a Security Consultant this would be my Forte.Regards.

Would we get baseball bats

[towisuk]

Nahh!!!! not baseball bats!......the Brits and Ausssies play cricket not rounders(girls game here in the u.k.), so a cricket bat must be the chosen weapon of defence

Regards

tom

[PBI]

Would we get baseball bats

Of Course !,comes with the Job !!! personaly speaking,you cant beat a good quality ASP Telescopic Baton,lot less bulky than a Bat,and perfectly legal in France.

[Max]

Seriously...I hadn't actually considered security to be a problem but thinking about it, our mutual friend from Albert and a couple of chums with MDs could be in and out overnight and strip the whole lot. It doesn't bear thinking about.

Andy

[PBI]

Sadly Andy you are so right,the Site Security would have to be of Paramount importance,as without a doubt the Grave Robbers from Albert and elsewhere on the Somme would without a doubt try and have a crack at the Site as soon as the First spadefull of Earth had been turned.Also you may well have to deal with a lot of well meaning visitors to the site who would have to be kept in check to stop them trampling all over the site.

[roel22]

I know I’m going to get shot to bits but…..

Why doesn’t someone ask the farmer if they can dig a small 1m x 1m test pit and stop when and if they hit bones? If they do the relevant authorities can be informed.

I realize this would mean someone actually doing something, rather than blithering on in front of their PC.

Can’t see a legal reason. If the Ozzie boys aren’t there like their Govt says, it’s only a hole in a field. If they are then they are found.

Simple

(like me I suppose)

Dave

I couldn't agree more, Dave.

Ofcourse the official way, involving the authorities from the start, would be best. But quite often those authorities don't show to be very cooperative. Demanding permits, or 100% evidence that's harde to provide since so many records are lost. But when a farmer or a roadworker all of a sudden discovers remains no questions are asked and the authorities get into action!

Why not speed up this process by digging a small test-pit (done by people who know what they're doing and ofcourse with permission of the land-owner.)

If nothing is done these men (and many others) certainly won't be found anymore.

Got a spare bullet-proof vest I can borrow, Dave?

Roel

[towisuk]

And if something IS found on a test dig you will already have the money and organisation to secure the site 24/7 immediately...get real ...this takes ORGANISATION by experienced professionals and National organisations.

Dig a test pit ..yes weve hit remains..disappear for 4 months to talk/think about it...return..... site vandalised.

I'm glad we have forum members who have a bit more know-how than our armchair experts.

regards

Tom

[Borderman]

And if something IS found on a test dig you will already have the money and organisation to secure the site 24/7 immediately...get real ...this takes ORGANISATION by experienced professionals and National organisations.

Dig a test pit ..yes weve hit remains..disappear for 4 months to talk/think about it...return..... site vandalised.

I'm glad we have forum members who have a bit more know-how than our armchair experts.

regards

Tom

Have you had time to read your own posts and reflect?

Dave