MACRAE Posted 10 March , 2007 Share Posted 10 March , 2007 Heard a small snippet about a mass grave possible Austrailan soldiers being excavated in France by the University of Glasgow any one have further information on this ? i think it was Fromels not sure on the spelling. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunchy Posted 10 March , 2007 Share Posted 10 March , 2007 Dan, After the Battle of Fromelles (night 19/20 July 1916), the Germans buried the Australian dead within their lines in a mass grave behind the lines. The site was marked by the Germans and a site of several large graves was seen on air photos taken by the RFC during the war. I am not sure of the number of those buried, I think it was in the order of 150 or so. A fellow in Melbourne has been seeking to have the grave uncovered and the bodies reinterred in a CWGC. There is skepticism that the remains are actually in the grave now; the general view being that they were exhumed after the war and reburied in a CWGC, many of them in the VC Corner cemetery. I had heard that the grave site was going to excavated to see if any remains are still there. I am not sure if this is so or the current situation about the dig. Maybe others can add more on the subject. Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisBryett Posted 10 March , 2007 Share Posted 10 March , 2007 Heard a small snippet about a mass grave possible Austrailan soldiers being excavated in France by the University of Glasgow any one have further information on this ? i think it was Fromels not sure on the spelling. Dan Dan, this has been the subject of an ongoing Panel of Investigation by the Australian Army History Unit. They recently concluded that Pheasant Wood at Fromelles France was a WW1 burial site for up to 169 WW1 Diggers and around 327 British solders following the Battle of Fromelles. The Panel recommended Ground Penetrating Radar only be performed and has negotiated with Dr Tony Pollard of the Centre for Battlefield Archaeology to do this for $AUD150,000. Dr Pollard is more famous for his TV Series Two Men in a Trench. I am not aware that he has any mass grave experience in either the archaeology dig part or in the geophysics side. I understand that his WW1 experience is very limited. The site is water logged with a high water table. It also has overhead wires, potentially tree roots from the adjacent Pheasant Wood and finally a NATO fuel line running next to it. Some of those things may impact on the use of GPR. The process has been less than transparent. There are concerns that GPR only may result in a false negative reading sending the team home and closing the case. These soldiers may have been concentrated after the war but only a non instrusive (to the edge of the pits) dig will be absolute and will tell us if Australian and/or British soldiers are still there. Of course that leads to the next question if only a dig will identify it then why not do the dig only? Good question! After all we know where the pits are from 1916 aerial photography and current satellite imagery and finally depressions in the ground. The last point is why did they turn down a free offer from a group headed by an eminent world expert in mass graves which was offered for free? Another good question! This offer included mass grave geophysis and non intrustive test dig. These stories have been adequately covered by 'theaustralian' over the past weeks starting on 9 Feb. There is an article in it today at page 35. There web site has the stories. My fear is that having got so close to not only solving the history mystery but closure for family and friends of these Diggers and British soldiers the Minister may stop short of what is needed to achieve the right result and that's just not a fair go for them. None are buried in VC Corner they (410) came off the wire after the Armistice left there from 19/20 July 1916. None were identified. Fairly hard to believe. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 11 March , 2007 Share Posted 11 March , 2007 After all we know where the pits are from 1916 aerial photography and current satellite imagery and finally depressions in the ground. Any idea if these areals can be seen somewhere? And where do I have to look using Google Earth (or a better service)? Roel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 12 March , 2007 Share Posted 12 March , 2007 Maps.google.fr has fantastic resolution around Fromelles. Can anyone post a position for this suspected Australian mass grave, either coordinates or a trench map would do. I've attached an aerial view of "Hitlers bunker" from the above site just to show the resolution. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 12 March , 2007 Share Posted 12 March , 2007 Dr Pollard is more famous for his TV Series Two Men in a Trench. I am not aware that he has any mass grave experience in either the archaeology dig part or in the geophysics side. I understand that his WW1 experience is very limited. Hello Chris I am sure that Pollard has been part of a team that investigated mass graves (using geophysics) at both Culloden and Shrewsbury as part of his tv series. What his experience is outside of tv I couldn't tell you. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisBryett Posted 12 March , 2007 Share Posted 12 March , 2007 Dear All, It is is inappropriate to pinpoint any site on this or any other forum for fear of site safety. Andy, lets miss the speculation. What are the facts? What mass grave did Tony use "mas grave geophyics" on?? What was the methodology and did it work? Keep in mind that mass grave archaeologists have missed mass graves with GPR only. It's the dig that works. Thanks to all, including Minister Billson, Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 12 March , 2007 Share Posted 12 March , 2007 Andy, lets miss the speculation. What are the facts? What mass grave did Tony use "mas grave geophyics" on?? What was the methodology and did it work? Keep in mind that mass grave archaeologists have missed mass graves with GPR only. It's the dig that works. Like I said, it was on his TV prog about Culloden and Shrewsbury. Don't know about the technical methodology, and no, it didn't work. As you say, I would have thought that test pits would be the only definitive method of confirming this one way or the other. Also, $150000AD does seem very expensive for a survey. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 13 March , 2007 Share Posted 13 March , 2007 I've Found the suspected site of the mass grave. The Australian news "Sixty Minutes" produced a video which can be viewed over the internet, the transcript of the programme is also there and available for down loading. The main theme running through the video is the cover up and the bungling of the commanders and Politicians, once again another story of men who gave their lives being let down by the people who's decisions meant they ended their days in a French field. In the video the position of the pits are clearly identifiable in an aerial photo taken by photographic evidence from a WW1 airplane Well done Sixty Minutes for making this video (over 14 minutes) available on line entitled ...................... " Don't Forget Me Cobber". I had worked out the general area of the burial place from information and maps, this video confirmed that I was within 100 metres with my calculations. I am going through Fromelles next week and this just gives me another interesting stop off point, in my journey down into the Somme. Regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 13 March , 2007 Share Posted 13 March , 2007 I've just seen the documentary online. Very impressive. Never new Fromelles was that bad. The picures of the presumed grave-site look pretty convincing (although it's still possible the bodies were re-interred after the war). But given the sacrifice that was made here I'd say the authorities still have a duty waiting here. Roel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 13 March , 2007 Share Posted 13 March , 2007 Yes Roel, as you say an impressive video. I think it beholds the Australian government to make the effort to thoroughly investigate the site, not to do so is an abdication of moral responsibility by the elected representatives of the people. I have looked at the site on a detailed aerial photograph and the amount of land which would be disturbed is not great. I'm sure the French farmer who owns the land would jump at the chance of receiving as compensation 150,000 Australian dollars that the Aussies are paying for a survey, for losing his land for a year for investigating and maybe recovering these lost souls. I still can't get my head round the amount of money this "survey" is costing.........they use this type of surveying here in the uk on an archealogical programme which runs on our channel 4 TV station...no way do the TV producers pay out a fraction of that money!!!! Still one thing politicans etc are good at is throwing away the money in the public purse. regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 13 March , 2007 Share Posted 13 March , 2007 I don't really see why a $150.000 ground radar-survey is needed, when the areals already give a clear picture where to look. I'm not an archeologist, but digging a narrow trench across the site may already show if there still is a mass-grave. If that shows to be true, the total excavation of the site will take quite a long time to make sure it's done as careful as possible. And I also believe the farmer's cooperation won't be the main problem. Roel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 13 March , 2007 Share Posted 13 March , 2007 Maybe by paying 150,000 AD the politicians will get the result THEY want!! Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Brown Posted 14 March , 2007 Share Posted 14 March , 2007 I don't really see why a $150.000 ground radar-survey is needed, when the areals already give a clear picture where to look. I'm not an archeologist, but digging a narrow trench across the site may already show if there still is a mass-grave. If that shows to be true, the total excavation of the site will take quite a long time to make sure it's done as careful as possible. And I also believe the farmer's cooperation won't be the main problem. Roel I am told that GPR has worked well in Bosnia but apart from that I agree about the only way to know for certain being a trench. However, as we found at Loos in 2005, archaeological trenches with bodies in will attract the wrong sort of attention. If an archaeological intervention is planned then the mechanism has to be there to go all out if skeletons are discovered or a good security plan has to be in place, otherwise there will be unauthorised disturbance after the evaluation team has gone home. By the way Tony Pollard is a good archaeologist with a strong track record and his vilification in some parts of the Australian media is unnecessary. Tony and I have a professional relationship going back some years so I know whereof I speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 14 March , 2007 Share Posted 14 March , 2007 Maybe by paying 150,000 AD the politicians will get the result THEY want!! Tom What would that result be? There seems to be a significant amount of criticism of Australian politicians on this and other threads relating to this supposed mass grave, and to be quite honest I just don't understand it. What benefit would a politician get from not digging up a few hundred Australians?, in fact I think that the opposite would be true. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borderman Posted 14 March , 2007 Share Posted 14 March , 2007 I've just seen the documentary online. Very impressive. Never new Fromelles was that bad. The picures of the presumed grave-site look pretty convincing (although it's still possible the bodies were re-interred after the war). But given the sacrifice that was made here I'd say the authorities still have a duty waiting here. Roel Got a link for that?? Can't find it Cheers Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 14 March , 2007 Share Posted 14 March , 2007 Got a link for that?? http://sixtyminutes.ninemsn.com.au/sixtymi.../story_1706.asp ...and click 'watch video' below happy viewing Roel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 14 March , 2007 Share Posted 14 March , 2007 Just watched this video, very good and worth watching. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borderman Posted 15 March , 2007 Share Posted 15 March , 2007 http://sixtyminutes.ninemsn.com.au/sixtymi.../story_1706.asp ...and click 'watch video' below happy viewing Roel Thanks for the link. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisBryett Posted 18 March , 2007 Share Posted 18 March , 2007 There is no vilification of Tony Pollard in the Australian press. No one is suggesting he doesn't have good archaeological skills in particular in British battlefield conflict. What is being said is that firstly there is Australian know-how that was snubbed. That know how is in mass graves. Potentially 170 Australians and 327 British is, a mass grave. Tony doesn't have mass grave experience in a dig or geophysics. I understand Tony has little WW1 experience. The second offer was for free. Tony's offer was for AUD $150,000. One of the questions is why is GPR only being done? Why no dig? What will the Minister do if he gets a negative result from the GPR? If he finds anomalies which require a dig he will be up for a lot of expense in exhumation, forensic examination and reburial with potentially a family member present with a carer if needed (as per the Defence Force instruction). The cost becomes quite large. The real issue is not about benefits to politicians its about providing closure for Diggers' families. To achieve that you have to use the best techniques for that specific job. So why do something short of that? That's the issue. In Bosnia a 120 man mass grave was missed using ground penetrating radar only. It was later verified by a dig. Some on the Panel of Investigation believe that the soldiers were concentrated after the war. If the Minister gets a negative result from GPR we won't know if it is true negative (indicating concentration) or a false negative (caused by the high water table etc) and the Diggers may still be there in the pits. A dig is the only absolute answer all else is wasting money, time and shy of what's required for this site. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 18 March , 2007 Share Posted 18 March , 2007 Why are so many people worrying about possible costs? If someone mysteriously dissapears and a few years later there's reasonable proof this he or she is buried somewhere, you can bet there will be a thourough examination of the site. But when this he or she is a soldier (or even 170 soldiers in this case) people start talking about costs, disturbing graves, etc. These soldiers never had a proper burial, in the presence of family and friends. Finally there's a chance to pay respects in a proper way to these men. These men deserve to be found too. Roel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBI Posted 18 March , 2007 Share Posted 18 March , 2007 Regarding the IDs of Men that have been lying on the Battlefield for over 4 Years,i would have to say that ID for many of them would have been impossible,due to the ravages of Time and Wartime conditions.At Irish House Cem at Kemmel are the Graves of 33 Men of the Gordon Highlanders,who were all KIA 15.12.14,One german Sniper accounting for 18 of the Gordons,the 3 Officer KIAs are all buried in individual Graves,as is the CSM,but the Rank and File are interred under One Headstone as positive ID was impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 27 March , 2007 Share Posted 27 March , 2007 The field adjacent to Peasant wood where the suspected mass graves are, photographed on Friday Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Brown Posted 27 March , 2007 Share Posted 27 March , 2007 Actually they did have a proper burial. The Germans buried them decently after the action. The issue is whether they are still in the hole as there is no record of a clearance party exhuming them so there is uncertainty about whether anyone is in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 27 March , 2007 Share Posted 27 March , 2007 I realise these soldiers have had a proper burial by the Germans. But to me a true proper burial is one where the fallen can be visited by friends and relatives after the war. Instead of lying in some anonymous massgrave, long forgotten by everyone. As long as there's serious doubt whether these 170 soldiers ever have been re-interred, I think there's reason enough to look for them. Even after 90 years. Roel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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