Mass Grave

[Max]

As long as there's serious doubt whether these 170 soldiers ever have been re-interred, I think there's reason enough to look for them.

Roel

Its not 170 soldiers, its upwards of 500 (potentially)

Andy

[PBI]

If the remains are Found,i still think that it will be very,very,hard to I.D. any of these Men,as the ravages of time will have taken their toll,and in all probability most of the Personal effects I.E. Watches,Pens,Rings,Cigarette Cases,etc would have been appropriated by the Opposing Soldiery..maybe the Cap Badges,and Shoulder Titles,and some equipment Remain,so at least these may give some indication of the Mans Regiment or Nationality.Being a Mass Burial also presents problems,as the Bodies Decompose the Bones settle and Intermingle,thus presenting the Archaeologists with the added task of seperating the individual Skeletons..this problem was Highlighted in the Discovery of a mass Grave at Towton in England,and another Mass Grave in Vilnius of Men from Napoleons Grande Armee.

[PBI]

http://www.online-archaeology.co.uk/forum/...p?TOPIC_ID=2123

[ChrisBryett]

If the remains are Found,i still think that it will be very,very,hard to I.D. any of these Men,as the ravages of time will have taken their toll,and in all probability most of the Personal effects I.E.

Yes it will be hard DNA is the main hope. DNA should be available. Their personal belongs were carefully collected at burial and returned to family members. If they are separately buried as time goes by more will be identified as relatives are found or come forward.

DNA is currently being used (for the first time for WW1 Australian soldiers as far as I know) on 6 WW1 Australian soldiers found near Westhoeck late last year. Forensic examination is a discretionary matter at the discretion of the Surgeon General. Great to see it being exercised.

It would be good to see a DNA database set up for all Australian WW1 Diggers. Samples taken as they are found and as family members come forward.

There is little doubt that they were buried at this site but as Martin says the question is are they still there? Only a dig will tell.

[towisuk]

So what if it's going to be hard if not immposible to ID the men in the pits at Pheasant wood??

The least they deserve is to be buried in a proper cemetery with the rest of their comrades who fell in this tragic battle.

Who can pay their respects to the fallen in some miserable Godforsaken field where there is nothing to stop development of the area (it's very close to the village), at some future date.

Would the Australian government prefer that the remains of their sons were scattered to the four corners of a Fromelles field when (and if ) the diggers move in at a future date. Or should they pay them the respect they deserve by making every attempt to ensure that no bodies of their soldiers are in this field which is less than a mile from the Diggers memorial just up the road.

regards

Tom

[PBI]

I would think that DNA testing would prove difficult and inconclusive to say the least due to the Amount of Remains,plus Tracing relatives,if at all they exist after this length of Time would prove a difficult Task,if DNA were to be the Key to giving unknown Soldiers IDs the CWGC surely would have used it before when remains were Discovered,as in the case of the Mass Burial at Pont Du Jour,maybe Terry Denham can claryify the CWGC stance on the use of DNA in this scenario.In reply to Chris from Sydney,regarding Personal effects,i meant to saythat the Enemy Burial details would have more than likely taken anything of value or use from the Bodies prior to Burial,after all this was War.

[PBI]

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=1250

[Terry Denham]

Please do not confuse CWGC with identifying remains. It is not their responsibility.

CWGC cares for graves of qualifying casualties. They do not undertake the identification of newly discovered remains.

Identifying remains is the responsibility of the civilian authorities in the country where they are found and (if proven to be foreign military) then of the military authorities of that foreign country. If they wish to use DNA, it is up to them. Of course, they would have to have someone's DNA to compare it with and then it would only prove relationship and not identity (without other evidence).

CWGC's role in any such process is (usually) to care for the remains whilst any investigation is undertaken and to supply any data which may assist the proper authorities (names of possible 'missing' casualties or the elimination of 'possibles' buried elsewhere etc). Once identified - or not - they then undertake the burial and future grave maintenance if the casualty is a proven Commonwealth serviceman.

[Jon6640]

Does anyone know if and when a dig would take place, these men deserve burial in a location safe from thieves/developers/disturbance.

If ye break faith with us who die

We shall not sleep, though poppies grow

In Flanders fields

Jon

[Borderman]

I know I’m going to get shot to bits but…..

Why doesn’t someone ask the farmer if they can dig a small 1m x 1m test pit and stop when and if they hit bones? If they do the relevant authorities can be informed.

I realize this would mean someone actually doing something, rather than blithering on in front of their PC.

Can’t see a legal reason. If the Ozzie boys aren’t there like their Govt says, it’s only a hole in a field. If they are then they are found.

Simple

(like me I suppose)

Dave

[towisuk]

The problem is Dave that it's better the Aussie Government organisne the survey and excavation than any old Tom, Dick or Harry who may be out to see what momento's and relics he can plunder for sale on E-Bay.

There are people out there who's scruples don't even match up to a sewer rats!!!

Very simple...sent to die in a foreign field by their government...it's up to the government to at least make the effort in ensuring they are laid to rest in with due DIGNITY, thats probably a word which Politicians don't understand.

regards

Tom

[PBI]

If this supposed Mass Burial Site is known to us on the Forum,then its Odds on that the Metal Detector Brigade know about it as well !,maybe they have already paid a visit ???

[Borderman]

If this supposed Mass Burial Site is known to us on the Forum,then its Odds on that the Metal Detector Brigade know about it as well !,maybe they have already paid a visit ???

If I was one of them (and I'm not!) this site would be brilliant.

If they haven't 'done' the site they soon will.

Dig a test pit. Solve the problem. The various Govts would have to act if there were any remains, either way - problem solved.

Honestly, I can't see a problem. If there is one please tell me.

Just off to get my shovel!

Dave

[PBI]

Trouble is Dave,once the Site is Found to contain Remains etc,etc,word spreads like wildfire,who will provide 24 Hour Security on the Dig Site ???..The Police,The Army ?..i doubt it.

[Chris Noble]

Good point PBI.

But i think Dave has pointed to a tried and tested method, r.e., the test pits scenario.

As for the Ground Penetrating Radar, i'm no expert, but from what i have seen, the results can show up various anomalies in the ground. As regards to the test pit method, this would show if the 'natural' (Soil) had been 'disturbed' in any way, maybe pointing to the location of any mass grave aswell as any human remains that could be present.

A very emotive issue Pals, and one, i hope, is brought to a successful conclusion one way or the other.

Kindest regards.

Chris.

[Martin Brown]

The issue of testing the presence of remains in non-invasive ways is one a number of us have been seriously discussing for a while in respect of this site. However we have also discussed field evaluation and the need for attendant security, as bitter experience tells me that if you dig a hole and find bodies you will get raided. If you can get the results from geophysics it's far better to do that and then open the grave properly prepared. GPR has been used in Bosnia and Kosovo and seems to work.

The likelihood of removal of effects is high, and I am fairly sure the identification disks were removed but other effects, such as letters from home and paybooks might survive. Personally I don't think every single body in that hole would have been stripped of all material that might point to an identification. Some will have been looted, others searched for intelligence material but I suspect in many cases the Germans would want to get an unpleasant job done quickly and not bother.

In respect of DNA it is a cost but the results should be very useful. This is a good test with a known "population" with, in many cases, surviving family. It worked with the Romanovs, where the Duke of Edinburgh gave a sample to help confirm their identification. In addition stable isotope analysis could be used to isolate the place or origin of individuals across continents.

Best

Martin

[towisuk]

I would like to point out the identification etc of any remains is secondary.

We are talking about a nation recovering the bodies of their fallen sons........at what cost do we draw the line at what is politically right, and what is morally right.

Surely it is not beyond the fiscal probity of the Australian government to fund efficient and proper security for the site once proven that the Red Cross reports of the German army were correct , and Australian soldiers lie beneath the sod of this field.

If not, what does that say about Australia and Australians??

regards

Tom

[Max]

If not, what does that say about Australia and Australians??

There are supposedly upwards of double the number of British soldiers in the mass grave as opposed to Australians.

[Borderman]

Brits in there as well!?!

I'll get me' wheelbarrow!

Seriously though. If the remains of fallen commonwealth soldiers were found, how quickly would CWGC or other Govt (Brit & Oz) move?

Has something like this happened before?

Dave

[towisuk]

The soldiers buried in the field next to Pheasant wood are believed to be Australian from the Battle of Fromelles which the Ausssies have chosen to ignore until it was brought to their attention by one of their citizens who seems to have a better idea of what Australia sacrificed in the Great War than do the Australian politicians.

I was in the Battlefield of Fromelles on Friday and almost all memorials were to the Australian forces who fought in that area in the Battle of Fromelles, so we assume that the majority of the mass burials are of Australians.

Lets not start giving the Australian Government excuses to not to do something..only LOSERS need to make excuses, lets hope we are not losers when it comes to honouring the fallen.

Is the field below a fitting resting place for hero's?

Regards

Tom

[Max]

Tom

Check out post 3 of this thread

Andy

[Borderman]

Well it's not an ugly field.

All it's missing is the headstones and rosebushes.

After all, if they are there, they are already lying side by side with their comrades.

Dave

[Max]

Well it's not an ugly field.

All it's missing is the headstones and rosebushes.

After all, if they are there, they are already lying side by side with their comrades.

Dave

I'm glad you've said that Dave because thats how I feel.

Andy

[towisuk]

And what is to stop the locals developing this field in the future?

How would you feel if your relatives were disintered in the name of progress having given their lives for their country?

Unless it is proven that the German information to the Red Cross is wrong, surely it is beholding of the following generations to do the utmost it can, to ensure the dead are given all due respect. And this means a thorough investigation conducted and paid for by the people responsible for sending them half way round the world to be slaughtered in an attack that was sheer folly.

Otherwise what was it all about???

Tom

[PBI]

How Many fallen of Both sides are forever entombed under industrial or Housing developments in Belgium and France,sadly progress and expansion cannot be halted so it seems.At the End of the Day,the Field is a French Farmers property and it is His to do with as He sees Fit.