Mass Grave

[Martin Brown]

Nicely put Martin.

I agree if it has to be done it should be done professionally.

Sorry, but I didn’t mention the name of a specific television programme, although if you feel that my view fits the bill that’s fine. Can’t help feeling that it was an unfortunate title for a programme considering that was the last thing you set out to do.

I am a little confused though, which sadly probably has something to do with my advancing years, are you saying that showing the public the broken bones of a man explains what war is all about? Sort of a public service? Or is it to explain to the congenitally stupid what steel at high velocity does to flesh and bones? And who on earth is the “we”? Could the Towton ‘thing’ be that few of the “we” feel related to the remains? Where as there are many of the “us” who are possibly related to the disarticulated thigh bones being viewed. Surely to get the point across you need to go digging at Blue Beach, that’ll do it.

Perhaps, and I’m not an expert on ratings etc, but if a mass grave is dug up with the TV cameras there, maybe we could phone in and vote one out. Then they get put in a glass presentation case for the “we” to goggle at?

Far better than Hollywood.

Before moving on because we're seriously off topic...

Your criticism of the TV was much the same as that m,ade by a few others on here so that's wty i said what I did. Also I didn't chose the title, Discovery did. Anyway we did try to show how we could find the fallen through sites and artefacts too, whcih is real archaeology.

"are you saying that showing the public the broken bones of a man explains what war is all about? Sort of a public service? Or is it to explain to the congenitally stupid what steel at high velocity does to flesh and bones? "

Yes, very much so. Well maybe education, not public service. We here know war is not glorious but maybe that's a message that needs repeating at large (I work with soldiers by the way, so this isn't some SWP political line).

"Could the Towton ‘thing’ be that few of the “we” feel related to the remains?"

Spot on, that's why I asked the question . It's an issue we all have to deal with in terms of my work, development, farming etc. Does proximity mean that development should stop everything?

Blue Beach is not one I know. Maybe we should just get more honest news reporting from various hot and sunny places...

And finally...

I love the idea of celebrity exhumation (or Changing Tombs maybe)! Let's pitch it! To be honest there are programmes dangerously close to this around but I don't think I've crossed the line. Seriously I did help one propsoal in this line come to naught.

Good to talk

Martin

[jonprice]

Hi

I've been reading this topic with interest. I was the first archaeologist to work with what became No Man's Land. The human remains at Auchy came up on my watch. I was guiding the excavator when the fragments of British soldiers appeared. I made the decision to ask the team to work for 24 hours continuous to recover the soldiers we had found. Martin and his team worked the next long shift.

Our work has led to the fairly safe conclusion that you will find a missing soldier on average every 10 meters along the front. The first soldier we recovered and identified, who was buried at a ceremony attended by a large number of his family, had his head ploughed off (recently, since the advent of deep ploughing). The fields of France are a sacred landscape, but they are not a burial ground. A burial ground is a properly set aside zone, with ritual furniture, where people can visit. It is not a place where your bones are mashed up by giant tractors and where cows piss on your exposed remains, or where detectorists steal your identity for a few euros. I have several relatives amongst the missing. I hope if they are found that they are found by people with a respectful agenda. But under no circumstances do I think that because their remains might be buried somewhere out there that all of Flanders should be declared a burial ground.

The British Empire decided for economic reasons to bury soldiers on the battlefields. The government refused grieving mothers the right to bring their sons home. Instead they created a cult of foreign burial which is overseen (very well and conscientiously) by CWG. The Americans, and more recently the Italians, let their citizens bring the remains of their ex-soldier relatives home. When my relatives signed up it was for the duration. They were not told that if they died the duration meant eternity.

But if they have to stay out there then I want them in our properly appointed and run cemetries. The government says they can't come home, so it has an obligation NOT to leave them lying out in a bloody field.

Jon Price

No Man's Land

My grandfather was an artilleryman who fought hand to hand at First Ypres and came home in 1918

[Max]

But if they have to stay out there then I want them in our properly appointed and run cemetries. The government says they can't come home, so it has an obligation NOT to leave them lying out in a bloody field.

Jon

With respect....the next time you go digging around the Redoubt, and if you come across a short arsed bloke from Batley, just say hello and leave him be.

Thanks

Andy

[Borderman]

Nice to talk to you too Martin

And believe me I respect your position.

Blue Beach is in San Carlos. And if you ever visit, have a thought for the men I left behind there.

They are not public property.

Dave

[PBI]

http://battlefields1418.50megs.com/point_du_jour.htm

[ChrisBryett]

Jon

With respect....the next time you go digging around the Redoubt, and if you come across a short arsed bloke from Batley, just say hello and leave him be.

Thanks

Andy

Andy you make a good point but I think the point is that looking after your relative is not within your control and that is real unfortunate.

If development is scheduled for a part of the old Western Front e.g. freeway work your 'short arsed bloke' will likely be bulldozed or in a rubble bin. This might be so in particular if work is carried out at night when authorities may be less vigilant. I think you will agree he deserves a lot better.

If professionals like Jon and Martin can, working ahead of such projects, identify some and give them a proper opportunity to rest in peace isn't that the better alternative? I don't know much about the No Man's Land Team but I believe a lot of their work is on a short time frame (that's all that is given to them) ahead of some car park development or other.

If you could halt all development on the Western Front that would be another alternative but we all know that won't happen nor should it happen.

If they are moved to the safety of a well cared for CWGC cemetery their remains will be made safe, by those currently living, well past our time on this planet.

It seems to me to be appropriate that all development in this region have the benefit of professional survey for soldier and civilian remains before they go ahead.

Having said that I do respect your sentiments Andy.

Chris.

But as Martin says this is somewhat off the topic. The issue here is are there Australian and British soldiers still in the pits at Fromelles? Let's hope the GPR is adequate.

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

I am currently a member of NML having been given the honor to join not as an archaeologist but for my historical input and good looks (maybe not the latter).

However this is not a comical subject, it is a serious one so my apologies if my lame attempt at humor offended anyone.

I can tell you from first hand experience that after flying across the Atlantic to be greeted by people who had never met me before and to be involved in several dig sites including Serre and the Hohenzollern Redoubt that there was nothing less than professionalism on the part of all involved, from the archaeologists to the various experts including bomb handling ( I was lectured quite strongly by Bill for a stupid mistake) and of course people like myself, historians and earth movers.

I was taught techniques and basic archaeology from people who do it for a living.

The finding of human remains was handled with all of the care and concern anyone on the forum could expect as if it was their relative. It did not matter what side they fought on, it did not matter how much was actually found, intact remains or simply pieces, each was treated with great care.

The people who discovered the human remains did work in poor conditions around the clock to make sure everything was done to properly remove the remains and to preserve as far as possible the artifacts found with them that were used by the preservation experts and the historians to piece together the events as best as possible and in several cases put a name to the long forgotten soldier.

To leave the remains as found, or as in many cases allow them to be destroyed, tossed aside as in excavations or taken by collectors would be a tragedy. We cannot hope to recover the thousands of dead from both sides and as mentioned earlier this is not the reason for the digs. We should provide some sort of decent handling and respectful resting place for those that are found. This is what I saw and after working, eating and socializing with the group for a week and I would expect nothing less.

I would rather see one man recovered than leave all for the new super highway, the new housing development, office park or landfill, now there is a fitting resting place, inside a pile of debris.

Would you rather a local artifact hound found them or a professional who has the intent to find a fitting resting place for the soldiers who died so long ago. Should their equipment end up on ebay or buried with the remains? Would you like to know the fate of a loved one in the family or picture the plows and earth excavators turning him into dust?

I would not be working with a group such as NML if I had the slightest issue with their ethics or motives. I for one find the identification and proper burial of these men as one of the most fulfilling things I have done in my life.

I wonder what the veterans would have said about it all? Or better yet the men who died if we had such a a chance?

Ralph

[towisuk]

Well put Ralph, my sentiments exactly.

regards

Tom

[Borderman]

I would rather see one man recovered than leave all for the new super highway, the new housing development, office park or landfill, now there is a fitting resting place, inside a pile of debris.

Ralph

I see your point, but a brief step into reality, that isn't going to happen with the area in this thread. I can see how it helps your argument to conjure up such images, but do you know were Pheasant Wood at Fromelles is?

Do you know what happens to CWGC cemeteries if a motorway is planned to go through the site or if they decide to build an airport? They get moved.

Once this area is proved or disproved to be a mass grave that knowledge will safeguard the site. There would be no need to disturb the remains, a simple memorial would suffice.

I am well aware what the word 'professional' means, if I'm right it means someone who earns their living from a particular occupation.

Dave

[Max]

After considering this I think that I am agreement with Borderman on this.

I am of the opinion that the investigation and removal of these mens remains has more to do with our need to understand and empathise rather than any concern regarding the wishes of the dead men. This is no criticism of those who feel that it is right and correct to excavate what is left of these men but I do have a real problem following the logic that seems to say, lets move these 500 unknown soldiers from a grave that they have shared with their comrades for the past 90 years and move them to a cemetery where they will probably still be buried as unknowns. Try to buy the land, conduct thorough research to try to identify who possibly lays there and then place a bloody big memorial on the spot to honour their passing, but leave them at rest.

These men may be unknowns to us, but they are known to God, and more importantly they are known to each other.

Andy

[PBI]

I can say that personaly i have never come across an example of an Established CWGC Military Cemetery having been moved to another Site due to Construction work.Individual or small Graves maybe but a whole Cemetery ????

[PBI]

After considering this I think that I am agreement with Borderman on this.

I am of the opinion that the investigation and removal of these mens remains has more to do with our need to understand and empathise rather than any concern regarding the wishes of the dead men. This is no criticism of those who feel that it is right and correct to excavate what is left of these men but I do have a real problem following the logic that seems to say, lets move these 500 unknown soldiers from a grave that they have shared with their comrades for the past 90 years and move them to a cemetery where they will probably still be buried as unknowns. Try to buy the land, conduct thorough research to try to identify who possibly lays there and then place a bloody big memorial on the spot to honour their passing, but leave them at rest.

These men may be unknowns to us, but they are known to God, and more importantly they are known to each other.

Andy

Trouble is Andy,that the Site would still be open to the Unwelcome attentions of the Scavengers,if the remains were placed in a CWGC Cemetery,it would prevent this.I share your sentiments on these men being disturbed,but once a Dig starts..Pandoras Box is well and truly opened.

[Borderman]

I can say that personaly i have never come across an example of an Established CWGC Military Cemetery having been moved to another Site due to Construction work.Individual or small Graves maybe but a whole Cemetery ????

No idea myself. There are some very very close to A26. Whether they were moved I can't say, but the French Govt would move them (with great respect of course) if they felt they had a needed.

Certainly the old plans for an airport on the Somme would have caused some relocation I would have thought.

Dave

[Borderman]

Trouble is Andy,that the Site would still be open to the Unwelcome attentions of the Scavengers,if the remains were placed in a CWGC Cemetery,it would prevent this.I share your sentiments on these men being disturbed,but once a Dig starts..Pandoras Box is well and truly opened.

Who guards the cemeteries?

After all thousands of the graves are original wartime burials, probably quite shallow and with the soldier wearing his shoulder flashes, buttons etc.

What’s to stop me going to Bernafay or Bazentin-le-Petit and having a little dig? A quick scan or what ever it is called with a metal detector? B*gger all. I’ve spent hours in those places and not seen another soul. In fact I bet it’s already happened (hope not though!).

If these places are protected at all, it through the fact that they are cemeteries or burial grounds and cultural and social barriers prevent these low lives desecrating them. If that’s true, then the same thing would protect those buried (if there are any – can I remind people) at the pheasant wood site, if it was turned into a memorial site of some kind.

[PBI]

Hi Dave,I have attended a Number of Burials of WW1 Soldiers who had been discovered,Many of the Bodies buried in the Big Concentration Cemeteries are a good Depth Down,and i should imagine the Same goes the same for the Small cemeterys also.Regarding the Scavengers ever Digging in a Cemetery,i have never come across any reports,and i would have thought that even Vermin like them would never Dare Desecrate a Cemetery by Digging up the Remains of the men interred therein.But maybe Digging and Detecting by a Memorial would not seem a problem to them..the memorial providing a convenient marker Point for them.Maybe after seeing this Subject on the Forum they are already preparing to pay a visit to Fromelles,if not having done so already.

[Borderman]

That was in peace time I guess.

The depth you bury a man in peace time when your biggest worry is if the pubs are open is different to the amount of soil you want to shift and time exposed to shell fire in war time. Bernafay wood was hammered, the graveyard shelled and many stretcher bearers killed. Common sense indicates the depth of the burials.

This really is for another thread I think.

IMHO

Dave

[Chris_Baker]

Two very large and one smaller cemeteries were planned to be moved in their entirety as part of development of the Somme airport. One French, one German, one British, if I remember it right.

[Borderman]

Two very large and one smaller cemeteries were planned to be moved in their entirety as part of development of the Somme airport. One French, one German, one British, if I remember it right.

So they can be moved then. Thought something like that might happen.

Thanks Chris

Dave

[ChrisBryett]

I see your point, but a brief step into reality, that isn't going to happen with the area in this thread. I can see how it helps your argument to conjure up such images, but do you know were Pheasant Wood at Fromelles is?

Do you know what happens to CWGC cemeteries if a motorway is planned to go through the site or if they decide to build an airport? They get moved.

Once this area is proved or disproved to be a mass grave that knowledge will safeguard the site. There would be no need to disturb the remains, a simple memorial would suffice.

I am well aware what the word 'professional' means, if I'm right it means someone who earns their living from a particular occupation.

Dave

Borderman, I know where Pheasant Wood is. Cemeteries do get moved or concentrated but it is the coffin that is moved not comingled bones. Bones that have become more comingled as time goes on. The eaerlier they are identifed the better the chance of identification and closure for families.

Once it is confirmed as a site with remains it must be exhumed that is the Defence Instruction in Australia. So the 'simple memorial' idea just won't happen.

Chris

[ChrisBryett]

After considering this I think that I am agreement with Borderman on this.

I am of the opinion that the investigation and removal of these mens remains has more to do with our need to understand and empathise rather than any concern regarding the wishes of the dead men. This is no criticism of those who feel that it is right and correct to excavate what is left of these men but I do have a real problem following the logic that seems to say, lets move these 500 unknown soldiers from a grave that they have shared with their comrades for the past 90 years and move them to a cemetery where they will probably still be buried as unknowns. Try to buy the land, conduct thorough research to try to identify who possibly lays there and then place a bloody big memorial on the spot to honour their passing, but leave them at rest.

These men may be unknowns to us, but they are known to God, and more importantly they are known to each other.

Andy

Andy the concept is tempting but it won't happen. The French are unlikely to want more cemeteries. As we all know the reason for the conentration of small cemeteries was to reduce the number of cemeteries. They would remain unidentified if they are in the pits and remain there. That's what they did to 410 Aussies from the same battle when they moved them after armistice to VC Corner.These fellows deserve far better and with modern technology they can likely get it.

They can likely be identifed and may be visited by family members as the individuals they are.

For them their duty is done but ours isn't.

[PBI]

Two very large and one smaller cemeteries were planned to be moved in their entirety as part of development of the Somme airport. One French, one German, one British, if I remember it right.

I remember the Furore over the planned moves,but i dont think the moves ever happened due to resistance from the local French population,the CWGC and News coverage in the UK bringing it to the Publics attention.

[ChrisBryett]

Maybe after seeing this Subject on the Forum they are already preparing to pay a visit to Fromelles,if not having done so already.

I think that is a good point and the reason why pinpointing a site in this forum is not the best move.

Makes it a bit hard to complain about the consequences?

Chris.

[ChrisBryett]

I remember the Furore over the planned moves,but i dont think the moves ever happened due to resistance from the local French population,the CWGC and News coverage in the UK bringing it to the Publics attention.

That's my recollection as well. It even hit the news in Australia.

Chris.

[PBI]

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dccfarr/news.htm

As i suspected,the Cemeterys were not moved...The Planned expansion site of the Airport WAS !!!!..NO British CWGC Cemetery in France has EVER been Moved !!....

[ChrisBryett]

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dccfarr/news.htm

As i suspected,the Cemeterys were not moved...The Planned expansion site of the Airport WAS !!!!..NO British CWGC Cemetery in France has EVER been Moved !!....

I think the EVER is a bit too long. The concentrations included cemeteries. For example Bancourt has bodies from Bapaume Reservoir German Cemetery, Bapaume Road Cemetery, Beaulencourt Road Cemeteries, Cloudy Trench Cemetery, Fremicourt Communal Cemetery and Sunken Road Cemetery. All concentrated into one much larger cemetery. There is 6 on one go.

The old cemeteries no doubt used for some commercial purpose.

Chris.