Mass Grave

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

"I see your point, but a brief step into reality, that isn't going to happen with the area in this thread. I can see how it helps your argument to conjure up such images, but do you know were Pheasant Wood at Fromelles is?"

I do having been to the area not that long ago. However I have seen remote, seemingly untouchable locations used for a variety of purposes as the land owner sees fit and more often than not the remote locations are used in some cases as convenient dumps for garbage, industrial debris and in some cases toxic items that cost too much to dispose of legally. There is no guarantee on any site that it will remain pristine forever.

"Once this area is proved or disproved to be a mass grave that knowledge will safeguard the site. There would be no need to disturb the remains, a simple memorial would suffice."

This does not always seem to be the case. We have had burial locations in the U.S. disturbed for the purpose of relic hunting and after experiencing looting at a dig site during the overnight period in France I doubt that simply knowing it is a mass grave would protect it. In fact as a remote location it would be easy to dig unseen and see what finds you can get to sell or add to a collection.

"I am well aware what the word 'professional' means, if I'm right it means someone who earns their living from a particular occupation."

I am not sure of your meaning in this sentence. In my case I was saying that it is not a group of amateurs out for a good days work. These are people with a dedication to the hobby. We all give up time and spend money to accomplish our goals.

If this is left up to the good graces of the local population, the local government or even the Australian government there is always the matter of funding. Not just for the immediate period but for the decades to follow. This will be a point of contention with the various officials, who will pay for it now, how will we pay for it in the following years, how will it be tended, will another entity pick up the responsibilities, etc.

My vote is to find out if there is a grave at all and then take the steps to properly remove the bodies, identify those that can and provide a decent, accessible resting place for them all.

Ralph

Dave

[PBI]

These movements of Remains from smaller Cemeterys into larger Concentration Cemeterys took place whilst the IWGC as it was at the Time,was in the process of actually constructing the Cemeterys.I should have stressed the point that NO movement of a completed & permanantley Established CWGC has ever happened.Regarding Cemeterys near Motorways or main Roads,well Pont Du Jour springs to mind,cant get much nearer the main Road than that methinks.

[Borderman]

Do you not think that it should be proved to be a grave first?

Perhaps it could even be done without TV cameras there?

It might even be worth trying to avoid second guessing govt. decisions both foreign and domestic?

Just a thought.

Dave

[MACRAE]

Hi

That video was what i can only describe as moving and very informative and yes well worth watching recomended 100%.

Dan

[ChrisBryett]

Do you not think that it should be proved to be a grave first?

Perhaps it could even be done without TV cameras there?

It might even be worth trying to avoid second guessing govt. decisions both foreign and domestic?

Just a thought.

Dave

Dave, I think that is the point. Testing of the site needs to be carried out by appropriately qualified and experienced archaeologists. A test dig is the only absolute method to confirm whether they are still there or not and their nationality.

As for TV cameras. I don't think pushing a GPR machine or an array around a paddock will be particulary attractive to the media until a result is announced. Since it will likely be made by way of a report to Army it will be the Minister who gets the media attention.

As for second guessing Government decisions which do you refer to?

It's a fact that the Australian Army are engaging someone to do GPR only. Its a fact that the sight may prove problematic for GPR. Its a fact that a false negative reading may occur. If Army put their faith in a single test why would they ignore the result?

Personally, I hope they get a positive result leading to recovery or at least a non intrusive test dig.

The Minister said last year that he hoped to have this phase complete in the first half of the year. So some time in the next 13 weeks we might know.

Chris.

[Max]

Leaving aside my personal views on this matter I would like to make a technical point. There is little argument as to whether there was a mass grave at this location, the debate seems to be whether the bodies were reinterred at another location after the war. In this case would not GPR give positive results even if the bodies had been removed, the disturbed earth being shown as a void/anomoly?

As for DNA testing, as I pointed on a recent thread DNA testing can only show relationship and not prove identity and would in my opinion be worthless without some other form of ID evidence.

Andy

[ChrisBryett]

Leaving aside my personal views on this matter I would like to make a technical point. There is little argument as to whether there was a mass grave at this location, the debate seems to be whether the bodies were reinterred at another location after the war. In this case would not GPR give positive results even if the bodies had been removed, the disturbed earth being shown as a void/anomoly?

As for DNA testing, as I pointed on a recent thread DNA testing can only show relationship and not prove identity and would in my opinion be worthless without some other form of ID evidence.

Andy

Andy, as I understand GPR it will look for differences in density. Thus if pit is created the more porous soil which is at the surface is blended with the subsoil. So GPR would pick up the pit as a large bucket gathering water. Keep in mind that human bodies have a high liquid content as well. The issue is that with, in particular, a high water table you will be looking for a bucket of water in a swimming pool. Tree roots may be an issue. There are other issues as well.

There are some who feel that they can calibrate GPR to bones. But you can't do that easily, or conclusively, as I understand it. You may for example be picking up an anomoly being cattle remains or pigs or the like.

You are right, though, it should pick up the pits and as you would no doubt agree we already know where they are. That comes back to the burning point why spend 60,000 pounds on GPR when a non instrusive dig would have been cheaper and absolute?

As for DNA testing, again as I understand it, you may be lucky enough to obtain a nuclear DNA sample. Assuming you obtain only a mitochondrial DNA sample then yes, a Family Reference Sample (FRS) from a direct female decendant (i.e. female all the way down to the subject) from the Digger's mum would give a relationship test. However when this FRS is married to a Y chromosone test of a direct male decendant you have identity. That's my understanding from those who know.

On that basis whilst all artefacts are important (including identifying which country they fought for) they may not be the only identifier.

The careful and skillful separating of the skeletal remains will be vital and thus the need for mass grave archaerologists with plenty of experience at the exhumation phase.

[Max]

However when this FRS is married to a Y chromosone test of a direct male decendant you have identity. That's my understanding from those who know.

Just to be a pedant... you can only prove that the man was the father of the living sample donor...this does not prove identity. For example, John Smith and John Jones who were best friends were killed together on 1/1/1917 and buried together in a mass grave. A "descendant" of John Smith was found and a sample of DNA taken from both a body and the living relative, a positive match was found. The assumption would then be that the body found was that of John Smith...this however does not take into account the fact that John Jones had been having it away with Mrs Smith behind Mr Smiths back. Under this circumstance the relationship between the body and the living donor has been established, but not the correct identity of the body.

Andy

[PBI]

After all the Speculation as to if there are or are not Human Remains in the Pheasant Wood Site,if there are a large Number,it will take a fair amount of time to remove them all,and even longer to DNA Test every single One,then there is the matter of tracing Family members or relatives,if indeed any survive.Who will carry out the Exhumations ?,where will the remains be stored while awaiting DNA Testing ?,who willl track Down Relatives etc..it all looks Easy in Theory....

[roel22]

After all the Speculation as to if there are or are not Human Remains in the Pheasant Wood Site,if there are a large Number,it will take a fair amount of time to remove them all,and even longer to DNA Test every single One,then there is the matter of tracing Family members or relatives,if indeed any survive.Who will carry out the Exhumations ?,where will the remains be stored while awaiting DNA Testing ?,who willl track Down Relatives etc..it all looks Easy in Theory....

So what you're basically saying is: if there's one or two bodies we might look for them, but if there's about 500 let's do nothing??

ROEL

[Borderman]

"Time for bed" said Zebedee

[PBI]

Logistics Roel..thats all............

Boingggggggggggggggggggg.

[Borderman]

Boingggggggggggggggggggg.

Nice one

[SiegeGunner]

If the mass burials are indeed (still) there, and if they were to be exhumed and the individual sets of remains separated out with a view to possible identification and eventual re-burial in individual graves, is there a CWGC cemetery nearby with space for upwards of 500 new individual graves?

If not, will the issue of eventual re-burial perhaps influence the course of action taken, with a strong probability of not fully excavating the burial pits, beyond exploratory digs to confirm their exact location and that they do indeed contain British/Australian dead, followed by the acquisition of the site from its owner and its enclosure as a new CWGC cemetery with appropriate memorial architecture?

Mick

[ChrisBryett]

If the mass burials are indeed (still) there, and if they were to be exhumed and the individual sets of remains separated out with a view to possible identification and eventual re-burial in individual graves, is there a CWGC cemetery nearby with space for upwards of 500 new individual graves?

If not, will the issue of eventual re-burial perhaps influence the course of action taken, with a strong probability of not fully excavating the burial pits, beyond exploratory digs to confirm their exact location and that they do indeed contain British/Australian dead, followed by the acquisition of the site from its owner and its enclosure as a new CWGC cemetery with appropriate memorial architecture?

Mick

Good point Mick. I don't know the answer to that one yet. I have been focussing on the Australian numbers more than the total grave numbers. There have been some who believe that VC Corner should be extended to accommodate them. As you probably aware VC Corner took in 410 after the Armistice without identifying one of them. I would expect that it will be up to CWGC.

I wouldn't be happy seeing them spread to the 4 winds of cemeteries as they do with the odd one found here or there.

The 5 found since the creation of the first register for VC Corner were all identified but ended up all over the place.

[ChrisBryett]

After all the Speculation as to if there are or are not Human Remains in the Pheasant Wood Site,if there are a large Number,it will take a fair amount of time to remove them all,and even longer to DNA Test every single One,then there is the matter of tracing Family members or relatives,if indeed any survive.Who will carry out the Exhumations ?,where will the remains be stored while awaiting DNA Testing ?,who willl track Down Relatives etc..it all looks Easy in Theory....

PBI you are right. It will be much harder in practice than theory as always. All the more reason to use those experienced at it.

On the finding relatives front. There are living relatives and more a coming forward as publicity spreads. Army has many relatives come forward searching for lost Diggers. That's the point that FRS and Y chromosone sampling should be captured. The sampling of the remains is not so problematic. All remains are stored by CWGC at their mortuary in Arras. I would expect that if there is an overload then a temporary facility will be created. Once the sampling is complete the remains can be buried. There is no benefit in holding the remains pending identification. They just need to be buried separately and the plot known.

I would expect some will be easily identified. Some will be identified over a couple of years. Some will take longer and some may never be identified. But if a reasonable number are identified then, to my mind, it is worth the effort.

[roel22]

Logistics Roel..thats all............

Quite a job indeed.

But think of the suggestion Max did: "Conduct thorough research to try to identify who possibly lays there and then place a bloody big memorial on the spot to honour their passing, but leave them at rest."

Roel

[ChrisBryett]

Quite a job indeed.

But think of the suggestion Max did: "Conduct thorough research to try to identify who possibly lays there and then place a bloody big memorial on the spot to honour their passing, but leave them at rest."

Roel

Roel the first problem would be that we know the names of the Australians who might in the pits but I am not aware of any research into likely British. That may take a long time.

The second issue is who would pay for such a memorial. I don't think CWGC would pay for it particularly since it would be on private land and speculative in terms of a lack of confirmation that they are still there.

That leads back to the problem of once you confirm they are there they will be exhumed. Therefor no need for a memorial on site.

Chris

[Borderman]

I wouldn't be happy seeing them spread to the 4 winds of cemeteries as they do with the odd one found here or there.

The 5 found since the creation of the first register for VC Corner were all identified but ended up all over the place.

Just a thought, aren't they all together now?

CWGC cemeteries are not hallowed ground so they could be extended or new ones created anywhere.

So why not here?

And surely your argument on using DNA should be extended to those men who are interred at VC Corner? For the very same reasons and for the very same reasons not too.

Known unto God seems the best solution.

Worked up till now

IMHO

Dave

[ChrisBryett]

Just a thought, aren't they all together now?

CWGC cemeteries are not hallowed ground so they could be extended or new ones created anywhere.

So why not here?

And surely your argument on using DNA should be extended to those men who are interred at VC Corner? For the very same reasons and for the very same reasons not too.

Known unto God seems the best solution.

Worked up till now

IMHO

Dave

That's the problem we don't know where they are right now. If it is proved that they are in the pits at Pheasant Wood then they must be exhumed. If that happens then identification should be tried.

When you say it has worked up to now. The reason there are 410 Australians unidentified in VC Corner is in my opinion because those involved didn't try hard enough. How else do you get 410 all unidentified and the next 5 all identified. As a result there are 410families are left with no certainty as to where their loved one's remains are. Having spoken to a couple I can assure you they don't like that outcome.

The 410 have lost their identify for eternity. Let's not do it again.

Thankfully the Australian Government are taking the first steps. Though I feel those steps to be inadequate and inappropriate for this site. They are at least steps in the right direction.

Chris

[Borderman]

If it is proved that they are in the pits at Pheasant Wood then they must be exhumed.

Sorry Chris, that's the bit I just don't get. Why? They are soldiers, buried by soldiers, sharing a grave with their fellow soldiers and have been resting in peace for some time. Along come the civilians and they get dug up. Some might get a name. Some distant relative living in a semi in Indooroopilly gets on the Telly saying they never knew about old Jack but are quite happy to go to his second funeral if the Govt is paying. But the rest get a grave, after hang about in a plastic bag for a couple of years, marked A Soldier of the Great War: Known unto God. Not much 'mateship' in that.

(Of course that's if they are there)

Suppose I must be a bit of a thicky.

Dave

[jonprice]

"They are soldiers, buried by soldiers, sharing a grave with their fellow soldiers and have been resting in peace for some time.2

Dead soldiers are buried ASAP for hygiene reasons. The aim is to concentrate the burials later so they can be looked after.

And apart from the regulars they were all civilians on loan temporarily to the army.

The issue is identification. Of bodies recovered, or of sites identified. As soon as you identify you have to deal with it.

In the case of this mass grave location: it has been identified. So it has to be dealt with. The problem is the international treaties were made circa 1919, and the world has moved on. Funerals and graves are for living descendants. The dead don't care.

[Borderman]

And apart from the regulars they were all civilians on loan temporarily to the army.

Ah, now I never knew that. All that time spent reading the QRs wasted. So they could just cancel the loan and walk off then? They wouldn't find themselves facing a firing squad?

Well that's cleared up. All that wasted effort giving civilians on loan military honours.

Oh and by the way

In the case of this mass grave location: it has been identified. So it has to be dealt with.

Did you read the posts? Nobody Knows until they dig a hole.

Dave

[Martin Brown]

Dave

Jon is not wrong. The grave is there and there is strong circumstancial evidence that it was never cleared in the post-war recovery phase. In that sense it has been identified and the question requiring an answer has been raised. As Ralph says it could become threatened and, most importantly, there are relatives who want to know what happened - the folk of Indooroopilly as you so charmingly put it.

This is not about disturbing a known cemetery it's about investigating a suspected burial site and properly honouring the men who may be in it.

[Martin Brown]

Nice to talk to you too Martin

And believe me I respect your position.

Blue Beach is in San Carlos. And if you ever visit, have a thought for the men I left behind there.

They are not public property.

Dave

Thanks for the correction about Blue Beach.

Let me pose you a hypothetical question.

Carlos was a 19 year old conscript when a British mortar round landed in his slit trench at Mt Longdon and killed him. He was never recovered and burial was a scrape of earth shovelled into the trench.

Carlos's mother has talked to all his surviving chums and thinks she knows where he is buried. She has made contacts who are prepared to search for him. Until he is found he is effectively another lost victim of Argentina's Junta and she is one of the Mothers of the Disappeared, albeit in different circumstances to some.

Should he be left to lie with his comrades?