Bedfordshire WW1

[rgalley]

Thanks, Richard - see post 191 in this section with another 5th Bn man - seems to confirm your ID.

Ian

Hi Ian,

No problem ... please see my post 302 (above) for another photo of 5th Seaforth men ... outside their billet in Bedford.

Richard

[Tom A McCluskey]

Hi All,

Ref: Post 302, the 5th Seaforth men in this photo are wearing the Glengarry bonnet of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. I noticed in a couple of the previous posts that the 5th Seaforths are wearing three types of Glengarry: the one they are supposed to (solid one like the Black Watch), the normal Seaforths type, and the type worn by the Argylls. I would put this down to wearing what was available, as opposed to what they were supposed to have.

Hope this helps

Aye

Tom McC

[rgalley]

Hi All,

Ref: Post 302, the 5th Seaforth men in this photo are wearing the Glengarry bonnet of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. I noticed in a couple of the previous posts that the 5th Seaforths are wearing three types of Glengarry: the one they are supposed to (solid one like the Black Watch), the normal Seaforths type, and the type worn by the Argylls. I would put this down to wearing what was available, as opposed to what they were supposed to have.

Hope this helps

Aye

Tom McC

Hi Tom,

Oh darn it! I thought we'd neatly side-stepped the further complexities / subtleties of glengarry dicing (or not!), tourrie colours, hose flash patterns / colours etc.! Actually, I could do with a refresher on these items of detail.

Your comments certainly do help and I agree with you. When one reads about the shortages of uniform items and kit in those early days of the war it is not surprising that anomalies arose. At least they were able to appear uniform even if the unit-specific details were incorrect.

As a bye-the-bye, Tom, do you happen to know what colour pipe cords the Seaforth used and did this vary according to Battalion?

Slainte,

Richard

[ian turner]

Richard,

I suspect that such uniform differences were perpetuated throughout the war. My grandfather's picture (7th Seaforth) has him in diced glengarry and spats - another chap a few numbers away from his (ie. similar enlistment date) has puttees. And this is 1918 - and what would have happened to their Balmoral hats?

Ian

[4thGordons]

Hi All,

Ref: Post 302, the 5th Seaforth men in this photo are wearing the Glengarry bonnet of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. I noticed in a couple of the previous posts that the 5th Seaforths are wearing three types of Glengarry: the one they are supposed to (solid one like the Black Watch), the normal Seaforths type, and the type worn by the Argylls. I would put this down to wearing what was available, as opposed to what they were supposed to have.

Hope this helps

Aye

Tom McC

RE no52

I also think there are TWO TYPES of glengarry in this picture! The man on the right as we look has a different pattern of dicing I believe (or so it appears). The three on the left appear to have simple red and white dicing (three rows) whereas the chap on the right has dark squares in the middle row. I have modern glengarries of both patterns. I was under the impression the simple red/white was worn by the A&SH whereas other regiments like the Gordons used the other pattern.

Perhaps we should start a thread in uniforms and see if we can bait Joe Sweeny into joining in?

[rgalley]

Richard,

I suspect that such uniform differences were perpetuated throughout the war. My grandfather's picture (7th Seaforth) has him in diced glengarry and spats - another chap a few numbers away from his (ie. similar enlistment date) has puttees. And this is 1918 - and what would have happened to their Balmoral hats?

Ian

Ian,

Sounds not unreasonable at all. Grandfather did well to hang onto his spats and diced glengarry until 1918! Balmorals largely gave way to Tam o' Shanters mid war, so there's another opportunity for variety. I posted a photo last night of what I think might be a Black Watch pipe band on the march (in 'Units and Formations') ... all variants of head and leg gear on display!

Richard

[rgalley]

RE no52

I also think there are TWO TYPES of glengarry in this picture! The man on the right as we look has a different pattern of dicing I believe (or so it appears). The three on the left appear to have simple red and white dicing (three rows) whereas the chap on the right has dark squares in the middle row. I have modern glengarries of both patterns. I was under the impression the simple red/white was worn by the A&SH whereas other regiments like the Gordons used the other pattern.

Perhaps we should start a thread in uniforms and see if we can bait Joe Sweeny into joining in?

Hi Chris,

Great minds ... I've just posted in "uniforms etc." to see if it sparks a debate. Thought it was best to relocate the issue to its own thread in a more appropriate area of the Forum.

All the best

Richard

[ian turner]

Ian,

Grandfather did well to hang onto his spats and diced glengarry until 1918! of head and leg gear on display!

Richard

Well, he joined late 1917/early 1918! I wonder if the new recruits were given older gear when they first enlisted/before going overseas, and were later properly kitted out for France? Most of the soldiers' studio pics in the UK look to be taken on first joining - first leave after basic training and now in uniform?

Certianly a hotch-potch of 'uniform' and it makes our research all the more interesting, I think!

Ian

[Chris Foster]

Hi Chris,

Great minds ... I've just posted in "uniforms etc." to see if it sparks a debate. Thought it was best to relocate the issue to its own thread in a more appropriate area of the Forum.

All the best

Richard

Hi Richard,

I have posted a couple of links to Joe Sweeney's posts which might be of interest in your thread Highland Uniform Detail's

Kindest Regards

Chris

[rollofhonour]

Thanks Martin. It was quite frustrating ... so near yet so far. If you're able to go and have a look as well that would be very helpful, as you might well find what I missed!

I went to the cemetery today and tried to find the grave without success. I had four to find in the same section, two I found, COBB and PARSONS, but could not find BOTHWELL or DEAR. I think the gravestones have gone and will not be found. I'm going back Sunday with a map of the cemetery to help me as I photographed it today. ANybody wanting to see the map of the cemetery can see it at:

Bedford Cemetery Maps

[rgalley]

I went to the cemetery today and tried to find the grave without success. I had four to find in the same section, but could not find BOTHWELL or DEAR. I think the gravestones have gone and will not be found. I'm going back Sunday with a map of the cemetery to help me as I photographed it today. ANybody wanting to see the map of the cemetery can see it at:

Martin,

Good luck on Sunday, but I too fear that the graves are lost. It seemed to me that Section D has suffered more than others in terms of missing / damaged headstones?

It's good that a map has ben provided for the visitor to the cemetery, but I was a little disheartened to see the military plot referred to as the "Scotts Soldiers Memorial"!

[Tom A McCluskey]

Hi Piper,

I don't know the colour of the Pipe cords, I suspect that the Regimental Headquarters would have a good idea or possibly the Army School of bagpiping in Edinburgh. Failing that, an old copy of Battalion Standing Orders might have this listed.

Chris,

Your right! the right hand man is wearing either a Royal Scots/RSF/Gordon Highlanders/Seaforth Highlanders Glengarry.

Aye

Tom McC

[rgalley]

Hi Piper,

I don't know the colour of the Pipe cords, I suspect that the Regimental Headquarters would have a good idea or possibly the Army School of bagpiping in Edinburgh. Failing that, an old copy of Battalion Standing Orders might have this listed.

Aye

Tom McC

OK, thanks anyway, Tom

[rollofhonour]

Went back to the cemetery today armed with the plan. I worked out the manner in which the graves are laid out and found the majority of the ones I required but sadly it would appear that J J BOTHWELL's headstone has gone but I have a good idea where it should be but that is all I am afraid to say.

[Joe Sweeney]

Chris,

Interesting to see the three men wearing A&SH Glen's. I think Tom is right with the case of wearing what was available or possibly men posted from an Argyll associated Reserve training unit who have not received all they were supposed to get yet.

The wear of Glens and gaiters into 1918 is not all that rare. Thesde continued in home based units for quite some time.

I have quite a bit of information on some training units with the 11th Gordons being the best.

In the 11th men did not recieve Balmorals or Tams until after they were assigned to a draft. While training they wore Glens. All photos up to September 1916 show a healthy mix of puttees and Gaiters.

Joe Sweeney

[4thGordons]

Thanks Joe - is your information re Gordons training units related to clothing and equipment or more general - I would be interested in date/location information if you have any.

Here is a recent acquisition: Another Solomns' pic. The lot this came with has several others I think may also be Bedford but I cannot be sure and have no provenance. Buildings, locations etc look right and styles resemble others I have seen from the time. There are a couple of distinctive house fronts which it may be possible to track down.

[rgalley]

Here are a group of 4th Seaforth in De Parys Avenue, Bedford. The image is by A.W. Pierce, Nottingham and comes from the 'Chrystal Collection', lodged with Bedford and Luton Archives Service.

The message on the back of the postcard reads:

"24 de Parys Avenue 1251 H Coy

4th Seaforth Highlanders

Bedford

12.9.14

Mr. R. Welsh, 28 Grafton Street, Glasgow

Dear Bob, Getting here A1, no word of shifting yet. We are having inoculations against typhoid fever today. Kind of vaccination business. This photo is taken outside the empty house we stayed in. Each Co. (this is some of them) is about 100 strong now. Piles of recruits have joined us from London and Bedford. Bn. is 30 men over strength now. How is Jock getting on? He will be starting shortly. Good luck, Walter."

In addition to mess tins, some of the men are holding copies of 'LLoyds Weekly News'. The young lad sitting in the middle of the group holds the front page up for the camera, but unfortunately I can't make out what's printed on it (Anybody out there got access to a copy of this?)

The chap standing 3rd from the right is wearing undiced glengarry and Mackenzie diced hose tops. One of the pipers? He also appears to have a sprig of heather behind his glengarry badge.

I'll provide a comparison shot of how the place looks today in my next posting.

[rgalley]

These houses are directly opposite the building shown in post 232 of this thread which stands at the junction of De Parys Avenue and Burnaby Road, which in turn leads into the Bedford School campus.

A few more to come when I get some time.

[4thGordons]

Excellent!

Great pics Richard. The chap you identify also has a different pattern Sporran Cantle.

What do you think of these Ivy covered buildings as the background for a couple of the ones I sent you recently?

Any luck with the porches?

Chris

[rgalley]

Excellent!

Great pics Richard. The chap you identify also has a different pattern Sporran Cantle.

What do you think of these Ivy covered buildings as the background for a couple of the ones I sent you recently?

Any luck with the porches?

Chris

Hi Chris,

Thanks. I noticed the cantle too and omitted to mention it! I'm not sure about the ivy covered background being the same one as in your photos, the architectural styles don't quite square with each other. However, I'll have another look, just to be sure. No luck with the porches yet. It's frustrating as they're quite distinctive, so shouldn't be too hard to spot, if they're still standing that is. I'm hoping to get some time to have a bit of a look round town next weekend ... I'll keep you posted.

Richard

[Ghost]

Bedfords Return <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good picture. I'm sure you have good reason for stating these men are the 1st Bn. But are you sure this is the 1st Bn. Reason's I ask is that the war Diary states the 1st Bn. entrained on the 30th, picture is dated 2?th. But the 2nd Bn. looks to have gone home just before them. And secondly, the C/O looks to me like like Lt.Col. Wynne. On his right is the spitting image of J.T.Coe. Both 2nd and then "new" 7th Bns.. This packet of men is just about the same size as the "new" training 7th Bn.formed from the 2nd Bn. The local paper and you will no doubt prove me wrong!

Alan

[Raster Scanning]

Hi Alan.

The reason I state they are 1st Battalion, is the men were reported as such in an article in the Beds Times, they went on to a meal in the Corn Exchange I think.

They could be the second I suppose, but definately not the 7th Batt training cadre as they joined the 2nd Battalion on 31st July 1918 after completing their task of training American soldiers. They did not exist in 1919.

Best wishes

John

[rgalley]

I managed to get aout and about with the camera this morning, so there's some fresh raw material for a few more 'then and now' shots.

The first is a photo taken by D. Lindley (99 Tavistock Street Bedford) of a platoon of 1/4 Cameron Highlanders. This was taken in the playground of Bedford High School for Girls, one of the 4 private schools in Bedford belonging to the Harpur Trust. The School is pretty much bang in the centre of town and stands on Bromham Road, next door to Bedford Prison(!). The School was HQ for the 1/4 Cameron Highlanders during the Highland Division's time in Bedford and this photo was probably taken shortly after their arrival, given that the horse chestnut trees are in full leaf (far right of the pic, behind the signaller with his bicycle).

The headmistress, her staff and the pupils did much good work for the troops, running one of the recreation rooms / canteens in Foster Hill Road and performing concerts for the benefit of the soldiers. The School's main hall was one of the 18 venues in the town for the official civic 1914/'15 Hogmanay Celebrations which took place over 2 evenings due to the number of men having to be catered for. On Years Eve, men who were billeted in unfurnished accommodation were entertained. The remainder were received on New Years Day.

[rgalley]

The original image shows men of the 1/4th Cameron Highlanders formed-up on Bedford Town Bridge which spans the river Great Ouse. They are facing South and are at the High Street / town centre end of the bridge. In front of them on the opposite bank of the river (out of shot) they'll see the Picturedrome Cinema (now the site of the Park Inn, formerly the Moat House Hotel, built in the late 1960s) and Bedford Rowing Club's boathouses (still there!).

The 'Swan Hotel' provides the main background for the photo and is one of Bedford's oldest surviving buildings. Apologies for not getting the angle quite right, but the bridge was widened post-WW1 and an exact match is a bit tricky, particularly with the tree masking the hotel's facade.

CHA TIL MACCRUIMEIN

(Departure of the 4th Camerons)

The pipes in the street were playing bravely,

The marching lads went by,

With merry hearts and voices singing

My friends marched out to die;

But I was hearing a lonely pibroch

Out of an older war,

'Farewell, farewell, farewell, MacCrimmon,

MacCrimmon comes no more.'

And every lad in his heart was dreaming

Of honour and wealth to come,

And honour and noble pride were calling

To the tune of the pipes and the drum;

But I was hearing a woman singing

On dark Dunvegan shore,

'In battle or peace, with wealth or honour,

MacCrimmon comes no more.'

And there in front of the men were marching,

With feet that made no mark,

The grey old ghosts of the ancient fighters

Come back again from the dark;

And in front of them all MacCrimmon piping

A weary tune and sore,

'On the gathering day, for ever and ever,

MacCrimmon comes no more.'

Lt E.A. Mackintosh

5th Seaforth Highlanders

Bedford, 1915

Killed in action Cantaing Mill, November 1917, buried Orival Wood Cemetery

A particularly poignant poem given that by the autumn of 1915, the 1/4th Cameron Highlanders had effectively ceased to exist as a fighting unit, the survivors being absorbed into 1st Cameron Highlanders.

The MacCrimmons are a legendary family of pipers. They had been the pipers of the MacLeods of Dunvegan and were closely involved with the Jacobite Rising of 1745.

[rgalley]

Here we have a still from an unreleased Pathe News newsreel showing the 4th Cameron Highlanders on a route march through the outskirts of Bedford. The footage is courtesy of the Scottish Screen Archive and runs for approx. 8 minutes.

The cameraman appears to have set up in Kempston, then a small village, but now part of Bedford's busy suburban sprawl and this still shows part of the column halted in St. Johns Street, Kempston. This area was much developed in the 1970s and many of the old cottages were swept away, but three of the 2 storey 'Oakley Terrace' dwellings still survive, next to their 3 storey neighbours.

The men are moving up the hill, heading East.

The original footage must have been taken during the winter of '14/'15 as frost and ice are evident on rooves and shaded areas of ground.