Bedfordshire WW1

[rgalley]

Richard.

Thank you for posting your pictures, I think we have fought over a couple of them on ebay!

John,

Yes, we have crossed swords (or wallets?!!) on ebay a couple of times! Still, when "losing" an item to you I always take consolation from the fact that it's going to a good and appreciative home.

A beer and bite sounds just the job ... Chris will be in UK later in the year, so maybe this might coincide with your plans?

I have to say that a book is already on my virtual drawing board ... now don't get excited folks we're only talking a basic idea and a few scribblings at this stage and there's an awful lot more preparation and research to do. I have in mind to centre it around Hugh McArthur's diary, supported by other contemporary writings and illustrated in a "then and now" type format. Between us we have access to a wealth of knowledge and material, not to mention personal interest in abundance. The only problem is getting the time to devote to moving the project forward! I also intend to approach the town museum to see what scope / interest there is for an exhibition covering the Highlanders' stay in Bedford. I also have a very long term plan (well, more a germ of an idea) around organising a Highland Sports Day on Bedford School playing field in May 2015, to mark the centenary of the original event, whilst commemorating more widely the Highland Division's part in our local history. Anyway, so much for the wild ramblings!

I like the pic of the 5th Seaforth in their slouch hats. I'm thinking that this could be in the Foster Hill Road / Prime Ministers' area which was the Seaforth's main stamping ground? Another one for me to check out!! The slouch hats seem to have been the cause of much mumbling and grumbling, but given the shortage of glengarries on mobilisation it was a case of making do with something that was at least reasonably uniform. Interestingly of the three sculpted figures atop the war memorial on Largs seafront, one is wearing a slouch hat.

I'm hoping (weather permitting) to get out and about (with the camera!) next weekend to pin down / confirm as many of the Bedford locations as I can. I'm also hoping to get permission to take photos around the Bedford School campus during the Easter break. I will, of course, post whatever I come up with to this thread.

Bye for now

Richard

[high wood]

Charles Richard Stewart Coppack Pte 3125-240577 1/5th Seaforth Highlanders, later commissioned 2nd lieutenant, Royal Fusiliers and Killed in Action 24th March 1918. No known Grave, commemorated on the Arras Memorial. Photograph taken by Sweetland of Bedford and dated 18th December 1914.

[rgalley]

Charles Richard Stewart Coppack Pte 3125-240577 1/5th Seaforth Highlanders, later commissioned 2nd lieutenant, Royal Fusiliers and Killed in Action 24th March 1918. No known Grave commemorated on the Arras Memorial. Photograph taken by Sweetland of Bedford and dated 18th December 1914.

Simon,

Nice one!

Richard

[rgalley]

London men of C Company, 1/5th Seaforths.

Simon,

Thanks for sharing this.

At this time Seaforth were pulling in a number of recruits from London. These being Londoners of Scottish origin, or extraction, who couldn't be accommodated by the London Scottish. I believe that all the units comprising the Highland Division (in its Bedford period) were actively recruiting from whatever available source.

It begs a question in my mind ... how many Bedford lads joined Highland Division units as a result?

Richard

[Raster Scanning]

High Wood

Thanks for your excellent pictures, I see that the instructors (officers school) in both my picture and yours are the same. Any chance of the names please.

I was interested to see your picture of Pte Coppack was taken by Frank Sweetland Cocks (traded as Sweetland) a prolific Edwardian photographer. I have been a collector of his images for many years, in fact the pictures of the Bedford School and Chapel I posted on this thread are by him.

Richard.

I await with anticipation the results of your expedition, I hope the rain stays away. I note from SDGW that 49 Seaforths were killed or died who enlisted at Bedford, 15 A&SH's and 10 Gordons.

[high wood]

High Wood

Thanks for your excellent pictures, I see that the instructors (officers school) in both my picture and yours are the same. Any chance of the names please.

The names on the photograph are as follows:

2nd Lt Albert Allen REAH, 20th DLI and MGC;

2nd Lt J McVey, 27th Nortumberland Fusiliers;

2nd Lt Cecil Leon Roberts, 3rd South Lancashire Regt and RFC/RAF;

2nd Lt Henry Montagu Bagot Chester, 13th Yorkshire Regiment;

2nd Lt Philip Owen, 3rd DLI;

2nd Lt Edward Napier Thomas, 20th Middlesex and RAF;

2nd Lt Cyril Joseph Unsworth, 11th South Lancashire Regt, DoW 7-7-1916;

2nd Lt Geoffrey Loseby, 4th Lancashire Fusiliers;

2nd Lt Herbert Cecil Victor Hall, 18th Btn DLI, KiA 13-6-1917;

2nd Lt D W Robertson, 15th West Yorkshire Regt;

2nd Lt Charles Edward Clift, 21st Lancashire Fusiliers;

2nd Lt Ernest Victor Hardaker M.C. & bar, 13th Yorkshire Regt and 10th Essex Regt;

2nd Lt Cecil John de Beaurepaire, 13th Btn East Surrey Regt;

2nd Lt Charles William Elliot, 23rd Btn Middlesex Regt, ex Pte 2176 14th Btn London Regt (London Scottish);

2nd Lt John Noel Watson, 15th Btn Cheshire Regt;

2nd Lt William Gaspard Le Marchant, 6th Btn KRRC;

2nd Lt George Duncan MacIntyre, 13th Yorkshire Regt, KiA 10-7-1916;

2nd Lt C V Cassal, 19th Manchesters;

2nd Lt Charles Robert Crozier Fisher, 3rd Btn Cheshire Regt;

2nd Lt Victor Edmund Powell 3rd Btn KSLI, KiA 26-9-1917;

2nd Lt Glynne William Evan Morgan, 3rd Btn Est Yorkshire Regt;

2nd Lt Archibald Jenner Sells, 3rd Btn The Queen's Regt, KiA 26-10-1916;

2nd Lt Percival Spencer, 20th Btn DLI;

2nd Lt William Anthony Gallon, 3rd Btn Border Regt;

2nd Lt Daniel Gill, 15th Btn West Yorks, KiA 24-10-1916;

2nd Lt Arthur Howard, 15th Btn West Yorkshire Regt;

2nd Lt Odo MacKay Simpson, 4th Btn Notts & Derbys KiA 13-7-1918;

2nd Lt Henry Chichely Dancer Sherston-Baker, 3rd Btn The Queen's Regt;

2nd Lt Douglas Vernon Palin, 3rd Btn Gloucestershire Regt;

SGT MAJOR JANKINSON Cheshire Regt;

2nd Lt Thomas Lloyd Richards, 3rd Btn South Wales Borderers;

2nd Lt J A Stanley, 15th West Yorkshire Regt;

2nd Lt Ambrose Clifford Chadwick, 15th West Yorks;

2nd Lt Norman Gilfillan, 4th South Staffordshire Regt;

2nd Lt C V Neil, 20th DLI;

LT-COL E F HOOD;

LT H H PHINNEY;

2nd Lt Thomas Henry Hions, 13th Yorks & Lancs;

2nd Lt William Ernest Ramsden, 15th West Yorkshire Regt;

2nd Lt John Woodley Morrison, 17th Btn Royal Warwickshire Regt, DoW 30-12-1916;

2nd Lt A K Lawrence, 19th Northumberland Fusiliers;

2nd Lt Alfred John Bailey 17th KRRC, KiA 3-9-1916;

2nd Lt J I Willis, 19th Northumberland Fusiliers;

2nd Lt George Richwood, 20th DLI;

2nd Lt James Hamilton Hogg, 3rd South Lancashire Regt;

2nd Lt Charles Frederick Buckley, 20th Lancashire Fusiliers;

2nd Lt C Curtiss, 19th Middlesex;

2nd Lt D J O'Hanlon, 27th Btn Northumberland Fusiliers and MGC.

[rgalley]

Piper, post 170

"Such was the speed at which the TFs were mobilised, many of the troops arrived in Bedford with a mixture of uniform and kit as demand outstripped supply at that time. Some men had to put up with wearing a mix of civvy dress and army uniform depending on what was available for issue at any one time. "

I think this illustrates your point nicely! /quote]

John,

I agree!

The house in the background is the same one that appears in one of 'Highwood's' (Simon's) postings earlier today.

Here's a shot of the slouch-hatted figure on Largs memorial that I mentioned earlier ...

[rgalley]

Here is another.

NCO's with medal ribbons, a family, Grandmother, Mother and Daughter? and a boy scout among others.

The sign on the window reads "music tuition" long shot for a location Richard?

John,

A nice pic which you kindly shared with me a long time ago, but great to see it again.

These are A&SH aren't they? I think they are from the glengarry badges and the tartan. If so, it's likely to be Castle Road area, although can't be more precise at the moment.

Richard

[Raster Scanning]

Simon.

Thank you very much for taking the time to write all the names for me, much appreciated. I intend to try and find out some more about this little known establishment.

Richard.

I wondered if the picture had been posted before, the thread has been going on and off for nearly two years, my memory is not that good.

[high wood]

Simon.

Thank you very much for taking the time to write all the names for me, much appreciated.

You are welcome.

3139 L/Cpl Vernon George Weedon. "D" Coy, 1/5th Btn, Seaforth Highlanders, KiA 7th May 1916. Enlisted London, Middlesex. Son of George and Louisa Weedon, of Upper Holloway, London. Junior clerk at Anthony Gibbs & Co., London, formerly chorister of St Andrew's, Wells St, London. Buried at Maroeuil British Cemetery, Pas de Calais, France. War diary WO 95/2866 states, "Maroeuil M2 sector, 7th May: Enemy T.M. fire blew in left Coy Front line. Damage repaired. One man killed by T.M."

The photograph was taken by C.A. Solomons, 131 Midland Road, Bedford.

[rgalley]

3139 L/Cpl Vernon George Weedon. "D" Coy, 1/5th Btn, Seaforth Highlanders, KiA 7th May 1916. Enlisted London, Middlesex. Son of George and Louisa Weedon, of Upper Holloway, London. Junior clerk at Anthony Gibbs & Co., London, formerly chorister of St Andrew's, Wells St, London. Buried at Maroeuil British Cemetery, Pas de Calais, France. War diary WO 95/2866 states, "Maroeuil M2 sector, 7th May: Enemy T.M. fire blew in left Coy Front line. Damage repaired. One man killed by T.M."

The photograph was taken by C.A. Solomons, 131 Midland Road, Bedford.

Thanks Simon, a very moving juxtaposition of pictures and words.

Not a lot one can say, really? Brings all the terrible waste into sharp focus.

Richard

[rgalley]

Another one of Rusell Park I think.

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k116/rasterscanning/No.jpg

Hi John,

I agree that this is Russell Park.

Thankyou for sharing your photobucket with us, I really appreciate it. What a great archive.

Kind regards

Richard

[rgalley]

Richard.

A location you may know

John,

This really does look like Beverley Crescent ... about 200 yds from where I was born 49 years later! But I'll need to add it to the list for positive I.D. I can't make out the cap badges at this resolution ... are they Cameron, or 5th Seaforth?

Always good to see the pipers working (some harder than others ... was it ever thus!)

Nice one

Richard

[rgalley]

SDGW that 49 Seaforths were killed or died who enlisted at Bedford, 15 A&SH's and 10 Gordons.

Hi John,

This is really useful information and much appreciated. How "easy" would it be to get the names? Presumably these numbers would be made up of all those who enlisted whilst the Highlanders were in Bedford (e.g. Londoners etc.) and not just Bedfordians. However it's a very good starting point. Thank you.

Richard

[high wood]

This photograph by Donald Lindley has the same backdrop as the studio portrait in post 22. It is dated April 1915 and has the following message on the back, " with compliments 2690? L/Cpl L Howard, B Coy, 2/4th Seaforth Highlanders, Bedford. 90 Rushford?, Longsight, Manchester. I have not been able to find a medal index card for him.

[Raster Scanning]

Hi Richard.

Not a problem, I will list the names etc when I get a moment or two.

[high wood]

Hi John,

This is really useful information and much appreciated. How "easy" would it be to get the names? Presumably these numbers would be made up of all those who enlisted whilst the Highlanders were in Bedford (e.g. Londoners etc.) and not just Bedfordians. However it's a very good starting point. Thank you.

Richard

If you go to the CWGC website and search by cemeteries, enter Bedford and then select Bedford cemetery and then cemetery reports, you will find a list of all the Highland Division men who died before reaching the Western Front.

[rgalley]

If you go to the CWGC website and search by cemeteries, enter Bedford and then select Bedford cemetery and then cemetery reports, you will find a list of all the Highland Division men who died before reaching the Western Front.

Simon,

Thanks.

I do already have the details of those who died whilst the Division was in Bedford. Those who were buried here in Foster Hill Road Cemetery and those whose bodies were returned home.

I'm now interested in trying to find out more about those who enlisted when the Highlanders were in Bedford, particularly any local lads. I believe two brothers from Bedford, with the surname Cameron, joined the Cameron Highlanders but from what I gather they would have done so regardless of the Highland Division arriving in Town. There will have been more "Bedfordian Highlanders", I'm sure.

All the best

Richard

[rgalley]

Hi Richard.

Not a problem, I will list the names etc when I get a moment or two.

Very kind of you, thanks John.

I've PM'd you about another matter along with my e-mail address.

All the best

Richard

[4thGordons]

One for Richard...

Portrait taken by J T Welch Midland Road. A&SH.

Message is interesting given recent discussion about "Bedfordians" joining up.

My interpretation of the message is that the NOK (at 157 Castle Road) has been informed of serious wound to the soldier (Shaw?) and is passing the message on to Miss King.

A couple of leads to follow up....

here is my transcription of msg:

Postmarked Bedford 9 July 1917.

157 Castle Road

We had a telegram from France yesterday to say ??Shaw?? is dangerously wounded. He is in No 7 Clearing Station and regret to say cannot be visited. Had to send it on to ?? in ??Southampton??

Chris

[4thGordons]

I am not really sure what the message of this "comic" card is..... but it is WWI vintage from Bedford.

Chris

[rgalley]

Hi John,

THanks for the update ... I bet it's a lot warmer and drier in Oz than it is here!

Have been up to Bedford School this morning and taken a few shots which I'll try and post soon.

All the best

Richard

[rgalley]

The caption on this indicates this was a training group at Bedford. Is the location the 5th Beds Drill Hall in Ashburnham Rd?

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k116/ras...ng/scan0002.jpg

Here is my comparison photograph.

I took this photo a couple of days ago. It shows the doorway of what used to be the Grafton Academy which appears in 2 images previously posted by Raster and High Wood. This is at the Midland Road end of Grafton Street (a rather dodgy and seedy part of town these days!). This is the side of the building that was once the County Theatre (latterly a bingo hall and pentecostal church ... but not at the same time!). This area was the location of central Bedford's only(?) air raid on 23 July 1942 in which the Theatre sustained some damage with two neighbouring buildings having to be demolished. This building is about quarter of a mile (max.) from the Ashburnham Road drill hall.

I'm not sure how long it'll remain standing as there are plans to redevelop this corner of town as the new railway station, with leisure complex and housing (yeah right! They'll do what they normally do in Bedford ... knock it all down leave an empty, weed infested plot for several years and then sell the land cheap!).

[4thGordons]

Nice find Richard.

My dad will be chuffed that he was correct about location too (if I tell him this is where he suggested to me)

Did the scots video show up yet and what is on the other 6 mins??

Chris

PS did you try/manage to add pics to the interactive map? If not I will reexamine settings, some of the before/after shots would be good I think

[rgalley]

here is (I think) another version of the Seaforths in Bedford. (edit: Piper has identified the location as Bedford School playing fields looking accross to DeParys Av.

This one has an inked date on the back of Oct 1914,

Photographer is AW Pierce (Nottingham) Negative number appears to be 1152

Taken a couple of days ago, here are a couple of comparisons which may be of interest ... my other half kindly standing in for the 1/4 Seaforth!

Richard