rollofhonour Posted 22 April , 2008 Share Posted 22 April , 2008 Just q quick update. I have emailed the office responsible for grave details and I am awainting a reply for Bedford Cemetery. Hopefully I will then be able to locate the grave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 22 April , 2008 Share Posted 22 April , 2008 Just q quick update. I have emailed the office responsible for grave details and I am awainting a reply for Bedford Cemetery. Hopefully I will then be able to locate the grave. Great, Thanks Martin. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgalley Posted 22 April , 2008 Share Posted 22 April , 2008 Sorry beg to disagree. John, Heavens, I'm slipping!!! Absolutely no need to apologise ... I stand corrected and better informed. I've edited the offending post accordingly. Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollofhonour Posted 23 April , 2008 Share Posted 23 April , 2008 Just in case somebody gets there before me I now have the grave reference: Section D Number 1098 That's a very big section on the slope I think.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raster Scanning Posted 24 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 24 April , 2008 Hi Martin. Well I certainly will not get there before you! I am really pleased this grave will be finally identified though. Best wishes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgalley Posted 24 April , 2008 Share Posted 24 April , 2008 Hi Martin. Well I certainly will not get there before you! I am really pleased this grave will be finally identified though. Best wishes Hi Martin and John, I may get a chance to go up to the cemetery this weekend. Does anyone know if there's a plan of the site which might give us more of a pointer to where Section D is? All the best Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgalley Posted 27 April , 2008 Share Posted 27 April , 2008 Hi Martin and John, I may get a chance to go up to the cemetery this weekend. Does anyone know if there's a plan of the site which might give us more of a pointer to where Section D is? All the best Richard I spent an hour or so up at the cemetery this morning before heavy rain forced me to quit. Although I found Section D, I couldn't find James Rothwell's grave. Many of the graves in this section seem to have lost their headstones altogether and quite a few of the remaining ones are badly damaged and / or overgrown. It may well be that I missed it for looking, or just got unlucky, so a further search probably wouldn't go amiss. I'll try and find out when the Friends of the Cemetery are next due to be on site as they might be able to point us in the right direction. Section D is just up the hill from the military plot. Sorry not to have been able to come back with positive news on this today, but I'm sure we'll find it eventually. All the best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgalley Posted 27 April , 2008 Share Posted 27 April , 2008 Out and about this morning I stopped to photograph what I think might be the Gordon Brigade's recreational hut erected by the War Office just off Hurst Grove, in the Queens Park area of Bedford early in 1915. I grew up not far from here and went to Queens Park Infants School and recall being told on a couple of occasions that this building had been put up as a canteen "for the soldiers" in WW1. It may be an unfortunate misidentification, or blurring of facts on the part of the people telling me, but if anyone can shed (no pun intended!) more light on this location, that'd be great. I understand that the War Office huts were originally wooden, but have also seen reference to some of them being clad in corrugated sheet later on in their "lives". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgalley Posted 28 April , 2008 Share Posted 28 April , 2008 I've been doing a bit more work on which units Bedford played host to during WW1 and am able to confirm the following: 51st Highland Division. Began to arrive August 1914 and all units had departed by mid-May 1915 53rd Welsh Division. Began to arrive May 1915 and departed July 1915. 68th Welsh Division. Began to arrive autumn 1915 and departed October 1916 62nd Division departed January 1917 72nd Division departed early summer 1917 The Royal Engineers Signal Service succeeded the 72nd in 1917 and remained in Bedford until late 1919. Bedford became the HQ of the Signal Service Training Centre. In 1916 the 5th Reserve Battalion, Bedfordshire Regt, commanded by Lieut.-Colonel the Hon. Victor Russell M.V.O. was billeted in and around Gwyn Street. Throughout the whole period ('14'-'18), Kempston Barracks were the Depot of the Bedfordshire Regt. The highest number of troops in Bedford at one time was 22,000 just prior to the Highland Division's departure in May 1915. In January 1919 there were about 4,200. According to the Borough Recreation Committee record, during the four years ('14 - '18), "there have been an average of a thousand men entertained every night in the Bedford Corn Exchange and the total would be approximately 1,600,000 men". Attached are a couple of contemporary photos of the Corn Exchange's interior, showing the area that served as the bar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 29 April , 2008 Share Posted 29 April , 2008 Useful list Richard - thanks - and nice pics of the interior of the Corn Exchange. Below is a recent find, original not really in focus, shoulder titles are not legible but definitely a territorial unit. A&SH I am pretty sure (Edit: or not as it turns out!). Photo by CA Solomons. Unidentified unfortunately although there is something written on the back but I cannot make it out. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollofhonour Posted 29 April , 2008 Share Posted 29 April , 2008 Sorry not to have been able to come back with positive news on this today, but I'm sure we'll find it eventually. All the best I have tried this section before. It runs diagonally not in straight lines and I only found that out when I was putting the photos on-line I was going to try getting there this weekend but seems you have beaten me to it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgalley Posted 29 April , 2008 Share Posted 29 April , 2008 Below is a recent find, original not really in focus, shoulder titles are not legible but definitely a territorial unit. A&SH I am pretty sure. Photo by CA Solomons. Unidentified unfortunately although there is something written on the back but I cannot make it out. Chris Hi Chris, From sporran, hose tops and the shape of glengarry badge I suggest he's 5th Seaforth. The glengarry's apparently frilly "rosette" (behind the badge) is also as per 5th Seaforth, I think. However, the dicing throws a bit of a spanner in the works as I thought 5th Seaforth wore plain glengarrys and I haven't got access to my reference sources at the moment to check? It could be that a diced glengarry was the only one available to him given the general shortage of such items at that time. Dicing on the glengarry, sporran design and lack of a sporran badge rule out the possibility of him being a 4th Cameron, I venture. Definitely not A&SH, however. I'll sit back and wait to be shot down in flames!! All the best Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgalley Posted 29 April , 2008 Share Posted 29 April , 2008 I have tried this section before. It runs diagonally not in straight lines and I only found that out when I was putting the photos on-line I was going to try getting there this weekend but seems you have beaten me to it Thanks Martin. It was quite frustrating ... so near yet so far. If you're able to go and have a look as well that would be very helpful, as you might well find what I missed! I've been meaning to drop you a line to congratulate you for all the good work you've done with the Rolls of Honour. THank you. All the best Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 29 April , 2008 Share Posted 29 April , 2008 Hi Chris, From sporran, hose tops and the shape of glengarry badge I suggest he's 5th Seaforth. The glengarry's apparently frilly "rosette" (behind the badge) is also as per 5th Seaforth, I think. However, the dicing throws a bit of a spanner in the works as I thought 5th Seaforth wore plain glengarrys and I haven't got access to my reference sources at the moment to check? It could be that a diced glengarry was the only one available to him given the general shortage of such items at that time. Dicing on the glengarry, sporran design and lack of a sporran badge rule out the possibility of him being a 4th Cameron, I venture. Definitely not A&SH, however. I'll sit back and wait to be shot down in flames!! All the best Richard OK my thinking was this - Diced Glen - like that worn by the 8 A & SH in the machine gun picture I posted above (during WWI were they all red/white checks as later unlike the Gordons checked ones which have darker squares?) Badge shape - I am as certain as I can be that it is not a Seaforths "stag heid" but of course I had forgotten that the 5th and later 4/5th wore the circular "sans peur" badge. I was worried that it wasn't big enough for the A&SH. Cameron Highlanders does seem a possibility.... The sporran was unknown to me but upon checking I think the Cameron Highlanders had a grey goat hair sporran - which would seem to fit this better than the others....but again the dicing issue. Didn't the Seaforths have a white hair sporran - or is this another difference with the Territorials? Hmmmmm time to enlist the experts? (The card was advertised as a Gordon btw!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 29 April , 2008 Share Posted 29 April , 2008 Had a quick look at my small collection of Seaforths pics garnered off the internet - two things stike me as ruling out this chap as being a Seaforth: 1) Sporran - in my pics the Seaforth sporran has white 'hair' at the back with dark tassles to the fore, and a stag's head badge on top. Virtually the opposite of this sporran. 2) The yellow stripes stand out on the Seaforth's MacKenzie tartan, which seem entirely absent on this kilt. The cap badge looks too 'fussy' to be Seaforths, and also I wonder if this kilt has 'box pleats' which might make it ASH. But I cannot see the badge clearly enough to pinpoint it. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgalley Posted 29 April , 2008 Share Posted 29 April , 2008 Had a quick look at my small collection of Seaforths pics garnered off the internet - two things stike me as ruling out this chap as being a Seaforth: 1) Sporran - in my pics the Seaforth sporran has white 'hair' at the back with dark tassles to the fore, and a stag's head badge on top. Virtually the opposite of this sporran. 2) The yellow stripes stand out on the Seaforth's MacKenzie tartan, which seem entirely absent on this kilt. The cap badge looks too 'fussy' to be Seaforths, and also I wonder if this kilt has 'box pleats' which might make it ASH. But I cannot see the badge clearly enough to pinpoint it. Ian Ian, The 5th Seaforth wore dark hair sporrans with white tassles and the Sutherland tartan (more akin to the Govt tartan ... without wanting to open up a whole fresh debate on the intricacies of Black Watch and Govt tartan) with no stripe of any colour, hence their absence in this photo. The 5th's cap badge was circular with a cat in the centre and the words 'sans peur' around the edge. Regards, Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 29 April , 2008 Share Posted 29 April , 2008 Ian, The 5th Seaforth wore dark hair sporrans with white tassles and the Sutherland tartan (more akin to the Govt tartan ... without wanting to open up a whole fresh debate on the intricacies of Black Watch and Govt tartan) with no stripe of any colour, hence their absence in this photo. The 5th's cap badge was circular with a cat in the centre and the words 'sans peur' around the edge. Regards, Richard Richard - well that answers my sporran question! Thanks What about the facings on the tunic? Here we have the problem of orthochromatic film (the cause of the disappearing stripe) I think but the seaforths would have had Buff and anyone else (apart from the Royal Regiments) yellow. Are you happy these are Buff (as rendered by ortho. film)? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 29 April , 2008 Share Posted 29 April , 2008 All of which matches this chap then - it is not impossible that his cap badge is circular, but the badge outline is slightly obscured in this view to be sure about it. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollofhonour Posted 29 April , 2008 Share Posted 29 April , 2008 Thanks Martin. It was quite frustrating ... so near yet so far. If you're able to go and have a look as well that would be very helpful, as you might well find what I missed! I've been meaning to drop you a line to congratulate you for all the good work you've done with the Rolls of Honour. THank you. All the best Richard I'll have a go sometime, make sure I have the right shoes As for the Roll of Honour you're welcome, it's not all my work but a collaboration and for that I thank all those who have contributed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgalley Posted 29 April , 2008 Share Posted 29 April , 2008 All of which matches this chap then - it is not impossible that his cap badge is circular, but the badge outline is slightly obscured in this view to be sure about it. Ian Just for reference, here's a group of 5th Seaforth and their landlady outside their billet in Beaconsfield Road, Bedford. Note also that these lads are wearing dark hosetops which would have been diced red and dark green, as opposed to the red and white diced hose worn by all other Seaforth battalions. Photo: Bedfordshire and Luton Archive Service All the best Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgalley Posted 29 April , 2008 Share Posted 29 April , 2008 ... ended the war at Bedford with C Depot, RE Signal Service. Anyone know where their HQ was? Hi John, Nice photo. Unfortunately I don't know the answer to your question re: the RE Signal Service HQ ... maybe Ashburnham Road? Might be worth posting this query separately on the Forum under 'Units and Formations' to see if any unit specialists know. All the best Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgalley Posted 29 April , 2008 Share Posted 29 April , 2008 A seletion of wartime pictures from the Omnia Aircraft Works in Leagrave. They were run by Mrs Hilda Hewlett, the first lady in England to hold a pilots licence. Her son went on to be a distinguished pilot in the war and had the distinction of being taught to fly by his mother More great photos, thanks for sharing them. I've identified an Avro 504 in the first photo, but is that an RE8, or BE2c in one of the others? She sounds like quite a lady does Mrs Hewlett and looks a determined sort. Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 29 April , 2008 Share Posted 29 April , 2008 Not all were Scots, here is a Private in the West Yorkshire Rgt http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k116/ras...Sweetland/8.jpg This man is a Northumberland Fusilier, by the name of Thomas Davies, trying his best to look like a soldier. http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k116/ras...Sweetland/9.jpg Finally a young man in the Monmouthshire Rgt. http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k116/ras...weetland/10.jpg All stationed in Bedford and all from the studio of Frank Sweetland Cocks. From the cap badge worn on his SD hat Thomas Davies is a Royal Welsh Fusilier (RWF) almost certainly of the 158th (North Wales) Brigade of the 53rd (Welsh) Division. He is wearing a 'simplified pattern' tunic, which helps to confirm the date of the photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raster Scanning Posted 30 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 30 April , 2008 Frogsmile. With a name like Davies, that makes more sense :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 30 April , 2008 Share Posted 30 April , 2008 Ian, The 5th Seaforth wore dark hair sporrans with white tassles and the Sutherland tartan (more akin to the Govt tartan ... without wanting to open up a whole fresh debate on the intricacies of Black Watch and Govt tartan) with no stripe of any colour, hence their absence in this photo. The 5th's cap badge was circular with a cat in the centre and the words 'sans peur' around the edge. Regards, Richard Thanks, Richard - see post 191 in this section with another 5th Bn man - seems to confirm your ID. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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