Royal Engineers Special Brigade

[Graham Stacey]

Hi Terry

New to this forum so hope my posting is correct.

Have found a 3rd cousin twice removed: Robert William Trump born 1891 in Taunton. His service record shows initially posted to 15th (Service) Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regiment as Private 485. Promoted to Corporal 30 Apr 1915. Then transferred to R.E.(Chemistry) on 3 Sep 1915. 4 Sep 1915 it shows Chemist Corporal. To Exped Force 20 Sep 1915. Promoted to Sergt. form torn but looks like "att'n Special igade" so assume Battalion Special Brigade. Then on 15 May 1916 "Discharged having been appointed to a temporary Comm as II Lieut with effect from 16/5/16"

Is he on your list of men and do you have anything which would help me learn more?  His medal card has MC after his name which I assume means Military Cross but I've been unable to find him in Gazette for this or for having been promoted - I guess I've missed something.

Regards

Graham

 

[Ivor Anderson]

Commissioned 16 May 1916: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29622/supplement/5908

MC listed in King's Birthday honours 1 Jan 1918 (no citation): https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30450/supplement/48

[Graham Stacey]

1 hour ago, Ivor Anderson said:

Commissioned 16 May 1916: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29622/supplement/5908

MC listed in King's Birthday honours 1 Jan 1918 (no citation): https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30450/supplement/48

Thanks Ivor

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

On 22/12/2002 at 15:21, Terry_Reeves said:

Over the past few years I have been compiling a roll of men who served in the RE Special Brigade and Special Companies.
...but would like to hear from any forum member who has information about any individual whom they believe served in the Brigade.

Terry,

The Absent Voters Lists for North Wales include well over a dozen men I think.
They are available here (free) in spreadsheet format, and can be interrogated in any way you choose.

https://dyfedjames99.wixsite.com/hanes-star/general-clean

Searching column 'E' by using the 'Search' function, for the word 'Special' brings up the men in your target group.
(There are one or two incidences of 'General List', otherwise this is an easy place to look.)
It includes their usual address also.

Of course, they may all be known already to you!

[Terry_Reeves]

Graham

He probably served initially in 186, 187, 188, or 189 Company. In February 1916 these companies formed the nucleus of the first four battalions of the Special Brigade on expansion of the original companies. He was  commissioned Into the RE and returned to the Special Brigade serving with "M" Special Company as a 2Lt. He is noted in the company war diary  on 15.12.18 as having returned from hospital. There are no further details.  

I can say in  1911 he was a science student and that he was a school teacher for the rest of his life.   I do have some more basic personal information about his life post-war  if it is of interest.

He does have an officers  file at the National Archives in WO339 / 62858 which may give more information but it will require a personal visit.

With regard to his MC, given that it is a Birthday Honours list and there is no citation, it is almost certainly for good work over an extended period and not a gallantry award. ins this case.

TR

 

54 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Terry,

The Absent Voters Lists for North Wales include well over a dozen men I think.
They are available here (free) in spreadsheet format, and can be interrogated in any way you choose.

https://dyfedjames99.wixsite.com/hanes-star/general-clean

Searching column 'E' by using the 'Search' function, for the word 'Special' brings up the men in your target group.
(There are one or two incidences of 'General List', otherwise this is an easy place to look.)
It includes their usual address also.

Of course, they may all be known already to you!

Thank very much Dan, much appreciated. I will have browse later.

TR

[Terry_Reeves]

1 hour ago, Graham Stacey said:

Thanks Ivor

 

1 hour ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Terry,

The Absent Voters Lists for North Wales include well over a dozen men I think.
They are available here (free) in spreadsheet format, and can be interrogated in any way you choose.

https://dyfedjames99.wixsite.com/hanes-star/general-clean

Searching column 'E' by using the 'Search' function, for the word 'Special' brings up the men in your target group.
(There are one or two incidences of 'General List', otherwise this is an easy place to look.)
It includes their usual address also.

Of course, they may all be known already to you!

Thank Dai, much appreciated.

TR

[Graham Stacey]

22 minutes ago, Terry_Reeves said:

Graham

He probably served initially in 186, 187, 188, or 189 Company. In February 1916 these companies formed the nucleus of the first four battalions of the Special Brigade on expansion of the original companies. He was  commissioned Into the RE and returned to the Special Brigade serving with "M" Special Company as a 2Lt. He is noted in the company war diary  on 15.12.18 as having returned from hospital. There are no further details.  

I can say in  1911 he was a science student and that he was a school teacher for the rest of his life.   I do have some more basic personal information about his life post-war  if it is of interest.

He does have an officers  file at the National Archives in WO339 / 62858 which may give more information but it will require a personal visit.

With regard to his MC, given that it is a Birthday Honours list and there is no citation, it is almost certainly for good work over an extended period and not a gallantry award. ins this case.

TR

 

Thank very much Dan, much appreciated. I will have browse later.

TR

Thanks for the extra info Terry. Did the "M" Special Company have a specific role? I'm aware of his being a science student from 1911 census and a schoolmaster in the 1939 survey and when his father died in 1946. I would be interested if you have other post-war info. 

Graham

[Terry_Reeves]

12 hours ago, Graham Stacey said:

Thanks for the extra info Terry. Did the "M" Special Company have a specific role? I'm aware of his being a science student from 1911 census and a schoolmaster in the 1939 survey and when his father died in 1946. I would be interested if you have other post-war info. 

Graham

Yes, they were responsible for the release of gas from cylinders and also the operation of Livens Projectors, a mortar type device that fired cylinders of gas. M Company belonged to No 3 Battalion a were nos 1and 2 Battalions.  No 5 Bn was responsible for firing the 4 inch Stokes Mortars which fired gas, incendiary and smoke bombs. Z Company was raised to operate the Livens Projector which was a giant flame thrower which was quite a fearsome weapon but in the event was abandoned because it was a complex and heavy machine and once fired took a fair amount of time to recharge.

TR

 

Edited 17 May , 2023 by Terry_Reeves

[Graham Stacey]

4 hours ago, Terry_Reeves said:

Yes, they were responsible for the release of gas from cylinders and also the operation of Livens Projectors, a mortar type device that fired cylinders of gas. M Company belonged to No 3 Battalion a were nos 1and 2 Battalions.  No 5 Bn was responsible for firing the 4 inch Stokes Mortars which fired gas, incendiary and smoke bombs. Z Company was raised to operate the Livens Projector which was a giant flame thrower which was quite a fearsome weapon but in the event was abandoned because it was a complex and heavy machine and once fired took a fair amount of time to recharge.

TR

 

Thanks very much Terry, greatly appreciated.

[ScoobyDhu]

Dear Terry.

I've taken on the task of deep-diving into War Service history for a friend of my wife.  The lady in question had a relative who is listed as being 5SPEC, Coy unknown and was killed in October 1916 and is listed at Thiepval.

129961 Pioneer Ernest GOLDIE RE, formerly 8/5 Highland Light Infantry, transferred/re-upped from HLI to RE in 1916, but we are not fully able to determine:

1. Confirmation thtat he was in 5 Special Brigade

2. What Company(ies) did he serve in?

3. Where would his final action taken place, was he seconded to another unit/company?

4. Any other details of the day (09 October 1916) when he was killed.

If you have any recommendations on where best to look, I would be much appreciated.  I have the GHQ War Diaries which I'm reviewing, but of course, there is little in the way of detail on specific names of soldiers, other than listings for gallentry.

Many thanks for your assistance. 

[Terry_Reeves]

 

 

1 hour ago, ScoobyDhu said:

Dear Terry.

I've taken on the task of deep-diving into War Service history for a friend of my wife.  The lady in question had a relative who is listed as being 5SPEC, Coy unknown and was killed in October 1916 and is listed at Thiepval.

129961 Pioneer Ernest GOLDIE RE, formerly 8/5 Highland Light Infantry, transferred/re-upped from HLI to RE in 1916, but we are not fully able to determine:

1. Confirmation thtat he was in 5 Special Brigade

2. What Company(ies) did he serve in?

3. Where would his final action taken place, was he seconded to another unit/company?

4. Any other details of the day (09 October 1916) when he was killed.

If you have any recommendations on where best to look, I would be much appreciated.  I have the GHQ War Diaries which I'm reviewing, but of course, there is little in the way of detail on specific names of soldiers, other than listings for gallentry.

Many thanks for your assistance. 

ScoobyDhu

He originally enlisted into 3/5th Battalion HLI a Territorial Force unit. He was later transferred to 9th (Provisional) Battalion HLI. He was discharged on 5.3.16 to join the Royal Engineers Special Brigade. All the official records show he was 5th (Mortar) Battalion when he was killed. He joined the unit on 28.3.1916. in France. I am away from my research material at the moment, but I will have a look when I get back in a few days time for anything more. In the meantime, the UK National Archives hold the mortar company war diaries which are available for download after registration. These  will give the day-to-day doings of the individual units within the battalion.  https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=+Mortar+company+Royal+engineers+AND+WO+95

TR

[ScoobyDhu]

6 minutes ago, Terry_Reeves said:

 

 

ScoobyDhu

He originally enlisted into 3/5th Battalion HLI a Territorial Force unit. He was later transferred to 9th (Provisional) Battalion HLI. He was discharged on 5.3.16 to join the Royal Engineers Special Brigade. All the official records show he was 5th (Mortar) Battalion when he was killed. He joined the unit on 28.3.1916. in France. I am away from my research material at the moment, but I will have a look when I get back in a few days time for anything more. In the meantime, the UK National Archives hold the mortar company war diaries which are available for download after registration. These  will give the day-to-day doings of the individual units within the battalion.  https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=+Mortar+company+Royal+engineers+AND+WO+95

TR

Thank you very much for the quick response. I look forward to hearing more, in the meantime, I'll have a look at the link you provided.

Kind Regards

S

[WakeyTim]

Hi Terry,

I happened on this thread by accident while doing some desk research.  I've hit a slight wall and wondered if you might be able to help me with what I hope is some fairly simple information.

My great-grandfather was Pioneer Joseph Newbould Goodall.  All I have for him are two army numbers from his medal card - one for the KOYLI (7850) and another for the RE (197464).  I was told by an army number specialist that he would, in all likelihood, have joined up with the KOYLI sometime in 1916 and then transferred to the RE on his arrival in France, specifically to the special companies.  This made sense to me as Joseph was a piece dyer in the textile mills of West Yorkshire and would have been used to working with chemicals.  There was also a family story that he was invalided back home after being gassed by his own gas (so to speak).  Indeed, he appears in the RE section of a war casualty list for 28 June 1918.

What I would love to know is when he signed up and to which company he was attached.  I understand that it's vaguely possible to judge those things by the army numbers either side of his - is that right?  I would also be interested to know whether he features on your list!

Joseph survived the war, but the family was poor and suffered hard in the depression. He earned money clearing snow off the railway line and was paid by the hour. My grandmother recalled her mother bandaging his bleeding hands at the end of the day, having worked as many hours as his body could take.  He also suffered ill health, almost certainly as a consequence of his work with chemicals. He developed a tumour behind one of his eyes, which he then had removed under local anaesthetic (some time in the 1930s, I believe). Not an easy life.

I would love to be able to piece together some of his movements in France, so any detail you might be able to add (or even informed speculation!) would be most welcome.  I'm sorry I don't have more to go on regarding his war service.

All the best, Tim 

 

[kenf48]

20 hours ago, WakeyTim said:

 I was told by an army number specialist that he would, in all likelihood, have joined up with the KOYLI sometime in 1916 and then transferred to the RE on his arrival in France, specifically to the special companies.

@Terry_Reeves will no doubt be along shortly but in the meantime I would agree with your 'number specialist' that he was mobilised to the 4th (Reserve) Battalion KOYLI around end of July/beginning August 1916.

It seems likely he followed in the path of this soldier 197458 Warriner/formerly Northumberland Fusiliers.  Pte Warriner's service record has survived and  Terry may be able confirm Pte Goodall's posting but Pte. Warriner's record shows he was posted to No 3 Special Company from the RE Base Depot in France.  

The transfer to the DLI shown on Warriner's record was an administrative device under the terms of Army Order 204 1916 to enable him to transfer as a Regular to the RE. He did not, apparently serve with the BEF in the infantry and neither did Pte Goodall.  The November date to France concurs with other men in the KOYLI in the 78**series.

Image courtesy of FMP

There is always the caveat on relying on just one number but the Medal Roll indicates a number of men around Goodall who followed a similar route into the RE.

 

[WakeyTim]

1 minute ago, kenf48 said:

@Terry_Reeves will no doubt be along shortly but in the meantime I would agree with your 'number specialist' that he was mobilised to the 4th (Reserve) Battalion KOYLI around end of July/beginning August 1916.

It seems likely he followed in the path of this soldier 197458 Warriner/formerly Northumberland Fusiliers.  Pte Warriner's service record has survived and  Terry may be able confirm Pte Goodall's posting but his record shows that Pte Warriner was posted to No 3 Special Company from the RE Base Depot in France.  

The transfer to the DLI shown on Wringer's record was an administrative device under the terms of Army Order 204 1916 to enable him to transfer as a Regular to the RE. He did not, apparently serve with the BEF in the infantry and neither did Pte Goodall.  The November date to France concurs with other men in the KOYLI in the 78**series.

There is always the caveat on relying on just one number but the Medal Roll indicates a number of men around Goodall who followed a similar route into the RE.

 

Thanks so much for taking the time to reply.  This is exactly the kind of information I was hoping for.  I guess it doesn't mean for sure that Pte Goodall would have gone to No 3 Special Company, but it's considerably more to go on than I had previously, for which sincere thanks!  

 

[Terry_Reeves]

2 hours ago, WakeyTim said:

Thanks so much for taking the time to reply.  This is exactly the kind of information I was hoping for.  I guess it doesn't mean for sure that Pte Goodall would have gone to No 3 Special Company, but it's considerably more to go on than I had previously, for which sincere thanks!  

 

Tim

As Ken has said he was a compulsory transfer. He appears  In “K” Special Company war diary on 16.4.1918 along with Pnr F McGuire and Pnr W Woods. TNA reference WO95/401/7. This is available as a free download once registered.

All three men are noted as “gas, slight” and were treated at the Advanced Dressing Station. Philosophe, France.

I also have some personal details:

Born 28.4.1888. 

Pre-war  he was a wool raiser residing at Providence St, Earlsheaton, Yorks.  

In 1939 he was a miller at a blanket mill residing 213 Ryescroft St, Ossett, York’s.  His wife was Lillian born 13.2.1890.

He died in October 1957. 
TR

 

Edited 2 July , 2023 by Terry_Reeves

[WakeyTim]

Thanks so much @Terry_Reeves.  I really appreciate both you and @kenf48 sharing your time and knowledge so willingly.  It's really a massive help.

Take care,

Tim

[Ken Wayman]

Hello Terry

I'm not new to the GWF but I am new to your thread. Researching Walsall area lads killed on the Somme, I came across this one and started getting background on his RE Sp Bde 5/Bn. 

His name is Frederick Thomas Croydon PAYTON, 106617 Sgt, 5th Battalion SB RE, so he was a mortar-man. I have a fair bit on his family and his service but I thought you might not have his name (I haven't read all 50 pages of the thread!). He died on 1 July 1916 and he is buried in plot G.30 of Carnoy Military Cemetery.

Hope you're well (we met years ago at BBC WM).

Ken

[Terry_Reeves]

 Ken, wecolme to the forum.   This is the information I have:

1896-1916. Bn Walsall, resided Ashbourne, Staffs. Enlisted Stoke on Trent. 1911 Student, St John’s Foundation School for Sons of Poor Clergy, of the Church of England, Epsom Rd. Leatherhead, Surrey.  Killed 1.7.16 Buried Carnoy Mil Cem. (20) Sof Rev Joseph  Wattson Payton and Elizabeth Croydon Payton of “Westfield” Bridge Rd, Torquay. Native of Walsall.

Formerly 8622 Royal Fusiliers.  He would d have been sent to "M" Depot Company at Chatham  before going to France. Disembarked 24.8.15.  He would have originally served in 186, 187, 188 or 189 Companies and would have been involved in the first gas attack at Loos joining 5th ( Mortar) Battalion on its formation at Bilques, sometime in February / March, 1916.

On the day he was killed he was almost certainly with No 4 Coy, P 45 sub-section , operating North of Carnoy providing  smoke for 18th Division to screen the infantry advance from the German front line. The post operation report for P section 45 sub-section of No 4 Company, noted that three guns were used by the sub-section  which was under command of 2Lt J C Pettitt RFA. The report  noted that 2 other ranks were killed and 3 wounded. 

His mother Elizabeth received 5/- pw pension.

He is commemorated on the following:

The war memorial at Ellesmore College, Shropshire and on the College Roll of Honour.

War Memorial at St John's School, Leatherhead.

The Church of Calton St Mary, Staffordshire.

If I can help further please let me know.

TR

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 9 September , 2023 by Terry_Reeves

[Ken Wayman]

That's outstanding, Terry, thank you very much. I have some of it but how do you find such extra detail? 

As this is for a (book) project on Walsall lads lost on the Somme, this info will hopefully make a family happy and proud!

Gratefully

Ken

[Ken Wayman]

Hi Terry

I have a bit of info on his family, which you probably have!:

Born in Walsall on 11 April 1896. He had four brothers (Clement, Vincent Tildesley, Cecil Joseph Alexander and James Gabriel) and three sisters (Fanny Elizabeth Mary, Edith Margaret Elizabeth and Hilda Frances Elizabeth = Beatrice died). Father sole legatee. Brother, Clement Payton, DFC, CdG, was killed on 2/10/18 serving in Belgium with 210 Squadron, RAF. He and Tom are commemorated on Waterhouses & District RBL Roll of Honour.

Ken

Edited 11 September , 2023 by Ken Wayman

[Terry_Reeves]

14 hours ago, Ken Wayman said:

Hi Terry

I have a bit of info on his family, which you probably have!:

Born in Walsall on 11 April 1896. He had four brothers (Clement, Vincent Tildesley, Cecil Joseph Alexander and James Gabriel) and three sisters (Fanny Elizabeth Mary, Edith Margaret Elizabeth and Hilda Frances Elizabeth = Beatrice died). Father sole legatee. Brother, Clement Payton, DFC, CdG, was killed on 2/10/18 serving in Belgium with 210 Squadron, RAF. He and Tom are commemorated on Waterhouses & District RBL Roll of Honour.

Ken

Thanks Ken.

TR

[Mike G James]

My grandfather L Cpl Thomas John James 155107 (b 1889 • Llangyfelach, Glamorgan, Wales) was in No 3 Special Coy RE.  (Seemingly 36 subsection M Section).  He was a graduate of University College Wales (Aberystwyth University)

6 Dec 1916 enlisted

29 Mar 1916 • Chatham, Kent, England

3rd Special Company Royal Engineers from pension document chatham 29 Mar 16 to 14 Apr 16. corroborated by postcards

15 Apr 1916 • France from pension document BEF 15 Apr 16 to 6 Apr 1916 corroborated by postcard No 5 battery special brigade RE

24 oct 1916 • Villiers Bocage Somme France (from postcard – a”village we have been staying in for some time now”)

14 Jan 1918  • Near Fruges France (from postcard)

11 Feb 1918 “36 subsection M Section 3 Special Company Royal Engineers” (from address on postcard)

Medical 2 Apr 1918 • Mondicourt cylinder dump, Arras, Pas-de-Calais, France.  Arras Doullens Rd While loading gas cylinders on to a train the end of a gas cylinder fell on his instep. On admission at 18th General Hospital the ankle was strapped with sticking plaster which was left on for 1 month. X ray photo .. showed no fracture (pensions record)

22 apr 1918 • Uppingham, Rutland, England Voluntary Aid Detachment (VAD) Hospital from postcard

11 Jun 1918 • Devonport, Devon, England

18 jun 1918 • Porton, Wiltshire, England experimental company Royal Engineers to 17 Aug 1918

7 Aug 1918 • Porton, Wiltshire, England transferred to P list army reserve (unfit for active service) for employment with Neath Education Committee

[Mike G James]

TJ James

[Mike G James]