Royal Engineers Special Brigade

[Mike G James]

Officers No 3 Special Co Feb 1918

[Mike G James]

ORs  and OR plus officers.  They seem to be different groups but TJ James is in both.  Building the same as the 3 special co officers Feb 1916

[Mike G James]

2 people who are in the same album.  Handwriting at back names them but difficult to read (good luck) 

[Terry_Reeves]

Mike, thanks very much for the information. With regard to the name on picture No 5, It is 130042 Arthur A Germany. He originally enlisted into 3/1st Cambridgeshire Regt. He died in Cambridge in January 1975. .   I have more information about him if it is of interest.

TR

Edited 23 October , 2023 by Terry_Reeves

[Mike G James]

Some more names: Cpl Griffiths

Pnr Wills

Pnr Mitchell

Pnr Sadler

Lt Tanner

Pn S R Hounsom

Cpl A Griffiths

Cpl A F McCarley

Lt Mellers

Dr Twyman ASC

Cpl Fox

Dr Turner ASC

Pnr M Thomas

Pnr AC Broom

Pnr H T J Evans

Cpl C F Brand

Named in Concert program 26 Feb 1917.  

[Terry_Reeves]

Thanks Mike, much appreciated.  With regard to Arthur Germany (post above)   his British War Medal is for sale on e bay. It has been on there for about 18 months or so at various silly prices. The latest is £129 - 50p. BIG sigh.

TR

Edited 22 October , 2023 by Terry_Reeves

[Mike G James]

8 hours ago, Terry_Reeves said:

Thanks Mike, much appreciated.  With regard to Arthur Germany (post above)   his British War Medal is for sale on e bay. It has been on there for about 18 months or so at various silly prices. The latest is £129 - 50p. BIG sigh.

TR

Hi Terry

Thanks for the reply.

I am sure you worked out that when I wrote "ORs  and OR plus officers.  They seem to be different groups but TJ James is in both.  Building the same as the 3 special co officers Feb 1916" this was a typo should be Feb 1918.  The Feb war diary is in Wandonne all month (no wardonne in google)  16 Feb 18 "visit by GOC Special Brigade cancelled" I guess a photographer may have been arranged for that?

I guess Cpl Germany might be of interest if it is easy if only because of the irony of his surname.  Dont waste a lot of time on it though.

What do you think about M Section 36 subsection?   It fits because M section is in the war diary entraining cylinders when my grandad had his industrial accident (aka war wound).  My only evidence is the address on a postcard from Mandalay though

How many people were in M section?

How many people were in 36 sub section?

Do you think TJJ would have been in these units throughout from 1916 despite the various reorganisations?

How many names are you up to in your database?  Looks like a good job

 

Mike

[Mike G James]

7 hours ago, Mike G James said:

Hi Terry

Thanks for the reply.

I am sure you worked out that when I wrote "ORs  and OR plus officers.  They seem to be different groups but TJ James is in both.  Building the same as the 3 special co officers Feb 1916" this was a typo should be Feb 1918.  The Feb war diary is in Wandonne all month (no wardonne in google)  16 Feb 18 "visit by GOC Special Brigade cancelled" I guess a photographer may have been arranged for that?

I guess Cpl Germany might be of interest if it is easy if only because of the irony of his surname.  Dont waste a lot of time on it though.

What do you think about M Section 36 subsection?   It fits because M section is in the war diary entraining cylinders when my grandad had his industrial accident (aka war wound).  My only evidence is the address on a postcard from Mandalay though

How many people were in M section?

How many people were in 36 sub section?

Do you think TJJ would have been in these units throughout from 1916 despite the various reorganisations?

How many names are you up to in your database?  Looks like a good job

 

Mike

Wandonne 7km North of Fruges

[Terry_Reeves]

Mike, was TJJ's number 155107?

With regard to the database, so far 2,232 men recorded. I know the names of many more however, it I can identify many more which will run into more thousands.

With regard to the section strength , it was around 45. There were three sub-sections per section , each with with around five men

I am reasonably sure he was with 5th Battalion for his service, if you can confirm his number I can give you a good idea when he joined.

TR

 

 

 

TR

Edited 23 October , 2023 by Terry_Reeves

[brianmorris547]

I'm trying to read the name of the man with the Bayonet. He was from Main St, Longriggend, Lanarkshire, Renfrew. The NLS maps show that there was a Main St in Longriggend , which is to the North East of Airdrie. I think his surname begins ST since it is the same as Main ST. Something like Starburn or Sterburn but I can not find a match. I will keep trying. Great pictures though.

Brian

[Mike G James]

36 minutes ago, Terry_Reeves said:

Mike, was TJJ's number 155107?

With regard to the database, so far 2,232 men recorded. I know the names of many more however, it I can identify many more which will run into more thousands.

With regard to the section strength , it was around 45. There were there sub-sections per section , each with with around five men

I am reasonably sure he was with 5th Battalion for his service, if you can confirm his number I can give you a good idea when he joined.

TR

 

 

 

TR

Thanks Terry

correct 155107,  I put this in the original post with dates and places I know  

Some  detail including dates are in the pension file available from ancestry (he got a small lump sum for his accident).  Extracts below.  seems to say ?? 5 in 1916 and co 3 in 1917.  My question really were 1 did the men all stick together from 1916 and just get assigned new letters and numbers or did they go to new units with new people?  I think you are saying they stayed together as a unit.  2 Plus an address is not  an official form so any corroboration he was in  36 subsection of M Section would be nice

You have done a great job!   I have read up to 2014 so far!

 

[Mike G James]

31 minutes ago, brianmorris547 said:

I'm trying to read the name of the man with the Bayonet. He was from Main St, Longriggend, Lanarkshire, Renfrew. The NLS maps show that there was a Main St in Longriggend , which is to the North East of Airdrie. I think his surname begins ST since it is the same as Main ST. Something like Starburn or Sterburn but I can not find a match. I will keep trying. Great pictures though.

Brian

I agree with the address.  I titled the picture R Stenhouse in honour of Stenhousmuir FC but couldnt find anyone with that name in a quick census search

[Terry_Reeves]

Thanks, lost the plot. He spent all of his time with 3 Coy.  There was only a change of number if men were transferred from other arms or corps.

I have started work on the concert party and found two of his old comrades. When I have finished it , I will let you know.

TR

Edited 23 October , 2023 by Terry_Reeves

[brianmorris547]

2 hours ago, Mike G James said:

I agree with the address.  I titled the picture R Stenhouse in honour of Stenhousmuir FC but couldnt find anyone with that name in a quick census search

There is this hospital admission in May 1916 No 4 SH.

Courtesy  TNA/FMP - MH 106/1446

This is Richard Stenhouse 130531 RE ex Royal Scots 25950. SWB details enlisted 24/06/1915 Discharged para 392 in 1918.

There is also a Robert Stenhouse RE 5119 (T) later 506788 but I think Richard is a better candidate. 

Brian

[Terry_Reeves]

27 minutes ago, brianmorris547 said:

There is this hospital admission in May 1916 No 4 SH.

Courtesy  TNA/FMP - MH 106/1446

This is Richard Stenhouse 130531 RE ex Royal Scots 25950. SWB details enlisted 24/06/1915 Discharged para 392 in 1918.

There is also a Robert Stenhouse RE 5119 (T) later 506788 but I think Richard is a better candidate. 

Brian

Nice one Brian. His number confirms he was a SB man. There is another SB man in that list also, 129096, James Meagher of 1st Bn.

TR

 

Edited 23 October , 2023 by Terry_Reeves

[Mike G James]

37 minutes ago, brianmorris547 said:

There is this hospital admission in May 1916 No 4 SH.

Courtesy  TNA/FMP - MH 106/1446

This is Richard Stenhouse 130531 RE ex Royal Scots 25950. SWB details enlisted 24/06/1915 Discharged para 392 in 1918.

There is also a Robert Stenhouse RE 5119 (T) later 506788 but I think Richard is a better candidate. 

Brian

Thats impressively quick: well done!.  No 4 SH handwriting is as bad as Roberts!  What is the word in the 10th column.  I notice it says 5Batt Spec Bde (which is what TJ James Pension said in 1916 but in 1917 he is 3 special coy

[Terry_Reeves]

52 minutes ago, Mike G James said:

Thats impressively quick: well done!.  No 4 SH handwriting is as bad as Roberts!  What is the word in the 10th column.  I notice it says 5Batt Spec Bde (which is what TJ James Pension said in 1916 but in 1917 he is 3 special coy

Mike, No 3 Coy was part of 5th Battalion which had four companies.

Just out of interest, the Special Brigade were issued with revolver because of the need to carry in cylinders etc into the front line. However, in 1916 when the mortar battalion was formed the men in that formation were issued with rifles because it was expected that once they had fired their bombs, they would go forward with the infantry in the attack.  In practice, this rarely happened however.

In early 1918 the whole of the brigade was issued with rifles because we aware the the Germans were going launch a major offensive, stating on th3 21st of March. Some of the Special Brigade troops were also sent on Lewis gun courses.  A number of the units became  involved in the infantry roll in late March and April 1918.

TR

Edited 23 October , 2023 by Terry_Reeves

[Mike G James]

48 minutes ago, Terry_Reeves said:

Mike, No 3 Coy was part of 5th Battalion which had four companies.

Just out of interest, the Special Brigade were issued with revolver because of the need to carry in cylinders etc into the front line. However, in 1916 when the mortar battalion was formed the men in that formation were issued with rifles because it was expected that once they had fired their bombs, they would go forward with the infantry in the attack.  In practice, this rarely happened however.

In early 1918 the whole of the brigade was issued with rifles because we aware the the Germans were going launch a major offensive, stating on th3 21st of March. Some of the Special Brigade troops were also sent on Lewis gun courses.  A number of the units became  involved in the infantry roll in late March and April 1918.

TR

Thanks again.  Sorry: I got confused because in 1916 they mention the 5th Battalion but not the 3rd Company whereas in 1917 they mention 3rd Company but not the Battalion on the paperwork. I read the chemical soldiers book some time ago but looking at the appendix diagram again I see how it works.  M is a section of the 3rd company in the 5th mortar Battalion but 3 is a Section of the  Company A in the 1st Battalion.   Should I look for three  war diary for 3 special company 5th battalion and 3 special company headquarters?

It looks like Pnr Stenhouse was posing for his mates!  I have taken the opportunity to look at earlier posts and saw something about the revolvers based on a photo of people with revolvers.  One of the posts suggests special brigade personnel would unofficially acquire rifles for possible use anyway

The 3 coy WD mentions musketry practice and rifle inspection in February 1918 when the photo was taken so I guess potential use during a German offensive was anticipated.

Incidentally, talking of Richard Stenhouse, I live in Edinburgh so could pop into National Library of Scotland or National Records of Scotland if any non digitised info might be up here.  I do not imagine anything of use to you is up here but let me know if anything occurs to you.  I wont be as fast as Brian though

 

 

 

 

 

[Terry_Reeves]

26 minutes ago, Mike G James said:

Thanks again.  Sorry: I got confused because in 1916 they mention the 5th Battalion but not the 3rd Company whereas in 1917 they mention 3rd Company but not the Battalion on the paperwork. I read the chemical soldiers book some time ago but looking at the appendix diagram again I see how it works.  M is a section of the 3rd company in the 5th mortar Battalion but 3 is a Section of the  Company A in the 1st Battalion.   Should I look for three  war diary for 3 special company 5th battalion and 3 special company headquarters?

It looks like Pnr Stenhouse was posing for his mates!  I have taken the opportunity to look at earlier posts and saw something about the revolvers based on a photo of people with revolvers.  One of the posts suggests special brigade personnel would unofficially acquire rifles for possible use anyway

The 3 coy WD mentions musketry practice and rifle inspection in February 1918 when the photo was taken so I guess potential use during a German offensive was anticipated.

Incidentally, talking of Richard Stenhouse, I live in Edinburgh so could pop into National Library of Scotland or National Records of Scotland if any non digitised info might be up here.  I do not imagine anything of use to you is up here but let me know if anything occurs to you.  I wont be as fast as Brian though

 

 

 

 

 

Mike , I think the rifle collection bit came from Chemical Soldiers, a decent book, but I have yet to be convinced of its efficacy in this particular respect. No worries, if I can help further let me know.

ps Brian is well known for being a bit fast ***. He has helped me a number  of times as well.

 

Edited 23 October , 2023 by Terry_Reeves

[brianmorris547]

Terry

There are two more 5 Bn men on the hospital admissions, 113457 Cpl Pierce and 130109 Pnr Butler. Both men were ex Kings (Liverpool).

Mike

I think his condition on admission was Conjunctivitis.

Brian

[Terry_Reeves]

3 hours ago, brianmorris547 said:

Terry

There are two more 5 Bn men on the hospital admissions, 113457 Cpl Pierce and 130109 Pnr Butler. Both men were ex Kings (Liverpool).

Mike

I think his condition on admission was Conjunctivitis.

Brian

Thanks Brian. Just checked., I already have these men, they were on a list you gave me quite some time ago.

TR

Edited 24 October , 2023 by Terry_Reeves

[Mike G James]

2 hours ago, brianmorris547 said:

Terry

There are two more 5 Bn men on the hospital admissions, 113457 Cpl Pierce and 130109 Pnr Butler. Both men were ex Kings (Liverpool).

Mike

I think his condition on admission was Conjunctivitis.

Brian

Makes sense maybe he had been exposed to gas?

12 hours ago, Terry_Reeves said:

Mike , I think the rifle collection bit came from Chemical Soldiers, a decent book, but I have yet to be convinced of its efficacy in this particular respect. No worries, if I can help further let me know.

ps Brian is well known for being a bit fast ***. He has helped me a number  of times as well.

 

TJJ wrote that there were other UCW men in the Special Brigade so I did a quick google.  I guess you have these men:

Pnr Richard Bowen 4^th special bde 197432

Cpl Evan William Evans 185934 N Special Coy

Pnr William James 159319 5^th Batt

Cpl Griffith Brynarfryn John 16504 187 coy

Pnr David Arthur Mort 155373 1^st Batt

Pnr Ivor Abraham Williams 224967 N Coy

[Terry_Reeves]

23 minutes ago, Mike G James said:

Makes sense maybe he had been exposed to gas?

TJJ wrote that there were other UCW men in the Special Brigade so I did a quick google.  I guess you have these men:

Pnr Richard Bowen 4^th special bde 197432

Cpl Evan William Evans 185934 N Special Coy

Pnr William James 159319 5^th Batt

Cpl Griffith Brynarfryn John 16504 187 coy

Pnr David Arthur Mort 155373 1^st Batt

Pnr Ivor Abraham Williams 224967 N Coy

Mike,  I already have them but thanks very much anyway.

 

TR

[Mike G James]

22 hours ago, Terry_Reeves said:

Nice one Brian. His number confirms he was a SB man. There is another SB man in that list also, 129096, James Meagher of 1st Bn.

TR

 

Hi Terry 

 

I popped into the Scottish Genealogy Society and fell down the special bde rabbithole

 

As you said the record for pnr stenhouse had other special bde men adjacent.  I decided to look at the surrounding pages and found more men on pages 18 12 10 and 5 of the findmypast images.  (I dont subscribe to that but can use it at SGA).  I had to print paper copies for legal reasons and rescan so the names are not 100% easy to read).   Let me know if you want me to type any out.  They dont seem to cross reference other files (two scans attached) 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Terry_Reeves]

2 hours ago, Mike G James said:

Hi Terry 

 

I popped into the Scottish Genealogy Society and fell down the special bde rabbithole

 

As you said the record for pnr stenhouse had other special bde men adjacent.  I decided to look at the surrounding pages and found more men on pages 18 12 10 and 5 of the findmypast images.  (I dont subscribe to that but can use it at SGA).  I had to print paper copies for legal reasons and rescan so the names are not 100% easy to read).   Let me know if you want me to type any out.  They dont seem to cross reference other files (two scans attached) 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mike, many thanks for your efforts, some of these are new to me. The big thing with the Special Brigade is tracking down the units the men belonged to and it these sort of records which are a big help.

TR

Edited 24 October , 2023 by Terry_Reeves