Royal Engineers Special Brigade

[Terry_Reeves]

No women served in the Special Brigade The man referred to was Cpl Keeble  Pettigrew. He also served with C Special Company, 1st Bn.

The following is from my Special Brigade database:

Bn 1890, Ireland. Analytical Chemist. Resided Wine St, Sligo. Attested 24.7.15. Disem 3.8.15 Admitted 112 FA, GSW right wrist and shoulder. 5.9.16 to England ex- 22 GH. Withnoe Camp thence to Wearde  Camp 12.11.17 possibly to convalesce. 8.12.17 Devonport, employed as instructor as Acting Sergeant.

TR

 

Edited 2 May , 2022 by Terry_Reeves

[Neil Pettigrew]

Many thanks for the swift reply. What a shame it turns out not to be my relative after all. Odd that the National Archives have this as being a woman. Must be  a mistake.  

[Pabs1964]

On 14/11/2019 at 01:13, Terry_Reeves said:

Pabs

 

There is a zero missing from the number in your original post, however, this still remains a mystery as 288900 per his RFC record does not appear in the RE medal rolls either, nor is there an index card for him with that number.  I'll see what I can do.

 

TR

Hi Terry, further to our comms in 2019, I have unearthed another image with I would be very grateful for any information about. Place, Company, Date, Names, Uniform, Batons, Belts etc

Regards

 

Paul

[Terry_Reeves]

Pabs

There is no connection there with the Special Brigade I’m afraid. The snake hook belts date from 1914 as part of the leather equipment I think. 

I can’t help any further I’m afraid.

TR
 

 

[Lee636]

Sorry to hijack/add to an existing thread but I'm looking to narrow down a brigade to the following : CPL William Cole 129762 - I have a copy of Howard Williamsons vol 3 book, I've looked up the number but it seems to appear within several number ranges within the Special Gas companies so im very confused (not experienced with the book as yet).

Can anyone narrow it down for me?

Thanks for any help,

Lee

[Terry_Reeves]

2 hours ago, Lee636 said:

Sorry to hijack/add to an existing thread but I'm looking to narrow down a brigade to the following : CPL William Cole 129762 - I have a copy of Howard Williamsons vol 3 book, I've looked up the number but it seems to appear within several number ranges within the Special Gas companies so im very confused (not experienced with the book as yet).

Can anyone narrow it down for me?

Thanks for any help,

Lee

Lee

I have extracted extracted names of all the men from the Special Brigade war diaries and he does not appear in them. It is not possible to track the Battalion/Company from the man's regimental number  in particular those who joined the Special Brigade in 1916 on. 

Incidentally, your man would have transferred from 14 Middlesex sometime between February and April 1916.

I have flagged his name up and if I come across him elsewhere I will let you know.

TR

Edited 30 October , 2022 by Terry_Reeves

[Lee636]

Thanks Terry.

Your help is a fantastic help as always!

Thanks,

Lee

[RyanJ23]

Hello,

I am trying to track down any information on my 2nd Great Grandfather, a Sydney Arthur Cable, Pioneer for the Royal Engineers.

What I do know is that his Regimental Number was 316676, he was discharged after being shot in the chest and being no longer fit to serve and on his Medal Roll card the Corps is R.E S.B.D. I think this means Royal Engineers, Special Brigade Depot. 

 

I can't find evidence that he served before the RE but he joined them in 1917 so I'm assuming he did.

 

Anything anyone has would be great. Any photos would be brilliant but I'm probably clutching there. 

[Gunner 87]

1 hour ago, RyanJ23 said:

can't find evidence that he served before the RE but he joined them in 1917 so I'm assuming he did.

Hello. Sydney's Silver War Badge Roll records a date of enlistment as 14/07/17. This ties in with a near number of 316673 who joined the RE on the 13/07/17. Neither Sydney's Medal Index Card or Victory Medal and British War Medal Roll list service with any other unit. These latter two documents would almost certainly record previous units in chronological order. 

[RyanJ23]

7 hours ago, Gunner 87 said:

Hello. Sydney's Silver War Badge Roll records a date of enlistment as 14/07/17. This ties in with a near number of 316673 who joined the RE on the 13/07/17. Neither Sydney's Medal Index Card or Victory Medal and British War Medal Roll list service with any other unit. These latter two documents would almost certainly record previous units in chronological order. 

Thank you!

I have found his Medal Roll I believe.

I wonder what he was upto between 1914 and 1917 then. 

 

Does anyone know how many depots the Special Brigade had?

 

Thanks,

Ryan

 

[Ivor Anderson]

His Silver War Badge record (Ancestry) shows that he was 27 at discharge in Sept 1918. His late enlistment was not due to age. Was he in war related work at home?

His pension cards state that he was from Birchills Walsall in Staffordshire. b. 23 Nov 1889? His marriage cert to Amy Sharp in Q2 1916 will show his occupation.

Edited 30 March , 2023 by Ivor Anderson

[RyanJ23]

1 minute ago, Ivor Anderson said:

His Silver War Badge record shows that he was 27 at discharge in Sept 1918. His late enlistment was not due to age. Was he in war related work at home?

I'm not entirely sure what he was upto until 1917. The last I could find is from the 1911 census when he was 21. He was employed as a 'milk carrier' I think it says. 

Do you know anyway to find out other war-related duties? 

I also actually can't find any information on what a Pioneer was and its rank equivalent to other corps. 

 

Thank you!

[Ivor Anderson]

39 minutes ago, RyanJ23 said:

I also actually can't find any information on what a Pioneer was and its rank equivalent to other corps. 

PIONEER (unskilled man - rank equiv to 'Private'): https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/293268-royal-engineers-pioneer-or-sapper/

His marriage cert to Amy Sharp at Walsall in Q2 1916 will show his occupation at that time.

He was living with his parents at 1 Hornshay Place, Hatcham S E London in 1911, but married at Walsall in 1916. How/when did he make that move?

He was a 'building labourer' in Walsall in 1939 (Ancestry):

Ivor

Edited 30 March , 2023 by Ivor Anderson

[RyanJ23]

1 hour ago, Ivor Anderson said:

PIONEER (unskilled man - rank equiv to 'Private'): https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/293268-royal-engineers-pioneer-or-sapper/

His marriage cert to Amy Sharp at Walsall in Q2 1916 will show his occupation at that time.

He was living with his parents at 1 Hornshay Place, Hatcham S E London in 1911, but married at Walsall in 1916. How/when did he make that move?

He was a 'building labourer' in Walsall in 1939 (Ancestry):

Ivor

I will order his marriage cert if I can and will report back. 

 

The question about his move was really important to my family research but I haven't been able to answer it yet. The marriage cert might be the missing piece. 

 

Thank you

[clk]

Hi Ryan,

If you weren't already aware, Sydney appears in the daily casualty list of 26th August 1918 - link, so he would have been wounded a few weeks prior to that date. From the same list the following RE men appear to have surviving service records:

145374 Boreham
474325 Harrison
108720 Jones
167178 Maddox
230583 Marshall
220306 Orange
60582 Savage; and
430367 Williamson

Hopefully their records will show actual wounding dates which may have a commonality of within a day or so of each other, and from which it might be possible to draw a reasonable inference about Sydney.

Regards
Chris

[RyanJ23]

1 hour ago, clk said:

Hi Ryan,

If you weren't already aware, Sydney appears in the daily casualty list of 26th August 1918 - link, so he would have been wounded a few weeks prior to that date. From the same list the following RE men appear to have surviving service records:

145374 Boreham
474325 Harrison
108720 Jones
167178 Maddox
230583 Marshall
220306 Orange
60582 Savage; and
430367 Williamson

Hopefully their records will show actual wounding dates which may have a commonality of within a day or so of each other, and from which it might be possible to draw a reasonable inference about Sydney.

Regards
Chris

That's amazing! Thank you.

[Ivor Anderson]

4 hours ago, RyanJ23 said:

The question about his move was really important to my family research but I haven't been able to answer it yet. The marriage cert might be the missing piece. 

I see that you have compiled a good family tree for him on Ancestry:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/175064876/person/422271732604/facts?_phsrc=qzF6713&_phstart=successSource

The full marriage certificate is a key piece of evidence. His occupation in 1916 should be stated on it.

A bit more research on Amy may help too. The marriage cert should give her father's name & occ..

There is no Amy Sharp(e) in the birth indexes re May 1889: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8912/images/ONS_B18892AZ-0568?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=6dd1b08df26c6eee37d8e27404e964cf&usePUB=true&_phsrc=qzF6729&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=49406964

The birth entry for their son Harry Sidney Cable (b. 30 Oct 1916 - on 1939 register) in Walsall gives his mother's maiden name as 'Sharp'.

 

Edited 30 March , 2023 by Ivor Anderson

[Ivor Anderson]

On 30/03/2023 at 14:13, clk said:

167178 Maddox

Randolph Maddox 167178 is in the same casualty list as Sydney Cable (26 August 1918) his service record states: wounded (Gas) 8-7-18, roughly 6 weeks before the C list:

His medical record page (Ancestry) also says:

He had been transferred to ??? Field Co. RE on 24 Oct 1917:

NB none of the RE nos from 316673-316681 show any records that would be helpful in adding further information.

Edited 1 April , 2023 by Ivor Anderson
Additional Info

[Terry_Reeves]

Just out of interest, I think you will find there was a rest camp at Bussel. There were a number I that area I think.

TR

[Ivor Anderson]

On 30/03/2023 at 16:05, Ivor Anderson said:

There is no Amy Sharp(e) in the birth indexes re May 1889

Her 1939 register entry shows her birth as 2 May 1889.

She seems to have died on 28 May 1965 aged 81, in Lichfield district? https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=7579&h=37196375&tid=&pid=&queryId=aa8f9b2cf85819e6ab4056d58ad0f769&usePUB=true&_phsrc=qzF6836&_phstart=successSource 

If so, then she was actually born in 1884?  The only Amy Sharp born in Q2 1884 was in Hartlepool, Durham (birth index, Ancestry):

I think this is her - note where her father Samuel was born - Walsall! (1891 census - Ancestry):

 Her parents were still living in Heath Town in 1901 & 1911, but Amy had left home (for work?) by 1901: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2352/images/rg14_17065_0655_03?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&pId=57026811

This may be Amy in 1901 (born Hartlepool): https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/23046814:7814?tid=&pid=&queryId=1d90075e66861f7126ff1e240b95df04&_phsrc=qzF6860&_phstart=successSource

Edited 2 April , 2023 by Ivor Anderson
Additional Info

[RyanJ23]

21 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

Her 1939 register entry shows her birth as 2 May 1889.

She seems to have died on 28 May 1965 aged 81, in Lichfield district? https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=7579&h=37196375&tid=&pid=&queryId=aa8f9b2cf85819e6ab4056d58ad0f769&usePUB=true&_phsrc=qzF6836&_phstart=successSource 

If so, then she was actually born in 1884?  The only Amy Sharp born in Q2 1884 was in Hartlepool, Durham (birth index, Ancestry):

I think this is her - note where her father Samuel was born - Walsall! (1891 census - Ancestry):

 Her parents were still living in Heath Town in 1901 & 1911, but Any had left home (for work?) by 1901: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2352/images/rg14_17065_0655_03?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&pId=57026811

This may be Amy in 1901 (born Hartlepool): https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/23046814:7814?tid=&pid=&queryId=1d90075e66861f7126ff1e240b95df04&_phsrc=qzF6860&_phstart=successSource

That is some impressive investigation.

I was stuck with Amy, I had her down as 1889 due to the 1939 register but couldn't find anything else. The other day I came across that Hartlepool record with 1884 being the likely DOB. sometimes 9s and 4s can look similar so perhaps its a case of that? Although more likely is that Sydney filled it in and couldn't be bothered asking her so just put his year of birth.

I hope correcting her DOB helps me find out more about her. I ordered Sydney's marriage cert so was waiting for that, but this gives me a head start!

Thank you,

Ryan

[RyanJ23]

23 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

Her 1939 register entry shows her birth as 2 May 1889.

She seems to have died on 28 May 1965 aged 81, in Lichfield district? https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=7579&h=37196375&tid=&pid=&queryId=aa8f9b2cf85819e6ab4056d58ad0f769&usePUB=true&_phsrc=qzF6836&_phstart=successSource 

If so, then she was actually born in 1884?  The only Amy Sharp born in Q2 1884 was in Hartlepool, Durham (birth index, Ancestry):

I think this is her - note where her father Samuel was born - Walsall! (1891 census - Ancestry):

 Her parents were still living in Heath Town in 1901 & 1911, but Amy had left home (for work?) by 1901: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2352/images/rg14_17065_0655_03?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&pId=57026811

This may be Amy in 1901 (born Hartlepool): https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/23046814:7814?tid=&pid=&queryId=1d90075e66861f7126ff1e240b95df04&_phsrc=qzF6860&_phstart=successSource

I don't know how I missed this but Amy's birthplace is Hartlepool as stated on the 1921 census: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/2870751?mark=7b22746f6b656e223a2277716a4c595770476d515962326a2b446a666c3942514469416e4d7946683130536f3949354e79593159733d222c22746f6b656e5f76657273696f6e223a225632227d.

Her father, Samuel Sharp, was also living with them listed as 'invalid'.

Best,

Ryan

[Ivor Anderson]

16 minutes ago, RyanJ23 said:

Amy's birthplace is Hartlepool as stated on the 1921 census

That certainly confirms our theory. I wonder where Amy was in 1911 and how she and Sydney met by 1915/16?

He was still in SE London in 1911, but had met Amy by Jan 1916, as their son was born 30 Oct 1916.

Walsall was bombed by Zeppelin LZ 61 on 31 Jan 1916. The lady Mayoress, Julia Slater, was one of those killed.

Edited 2 April , 2023 by Ivor Anderson
Additional Info

[RyanJ23]

1 hour ago, Ivor Anderson said:

That certainly confirms our theory. I wonder where Amy was in 1911 and how she and Sydney met by 1915/16?

He was still in SE London in 1911, but had met Amy by Jan 1916, as their son was born 30 Oct 1916.

Walsall was bombed by Zeppelin LZ 61 on 31 Jan 1916. The lady Mayoress, Julia Slater, was one of those killed.

I think I may have found the answer to that (though the birthplace doesn't match, it's the only Amy Sharp in the 1911 census. I'm thinking the person that completed the record just put their current place as her birthplace because they didn't know where she was born). 

It seems she was working in a 'lunatic asylum' in 1911 as a Charge Attendant in Hatton Budbrooke, Warwickshire. Not too far from Walsall/Wolverhampton, etc. 

Her mother died in 1913 in Wolverhampton, so it could be that she met Sydney around that time and place.

Her family moved from Hartlepool, Durham around 1886-88.

I believe Sydney moved for work, but this would have been between 1911-16, not sure if it was during or before the war.

Best,

Ryan

[RyanJ23]

On 30/03/2023 at 16:05, Ivor Anderson said:

I see that you have compiled a good family tree for him on Ancestry:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/175064876/person/422271732604/facts?_phsrc=qzF6713&_phstart=successSource

The full marriage certificate is a key piece of evidence. His occupation in 1916 should be stated on it.

A bit more research on Amy may help too. The marriage cert should give her father's name & occ..

There is no Amy Sharp(e) in the birth indexes re May 1889: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8912/images/ONS_B18892AZ-0568?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=6dd1b08df26c6eee37d8e27404e964cf&usePUB=true&_phsrc=qzF6729&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=49406964

The birth entry for their son Harry Sidney Cable (b. 30 Oct 1916 - on 1939 register) in Walsall gives his mother's maiden name as 'Sharp'.

 

Hi Ivor, the marriage certificate came at long last. So Sydney was working as a Telephone Linesman in 1916. I can't find much information on this or whether he was working in Walsall or as part of the military, but then if he was drafted, would he have married Amy? I'm not that clued up on what a soldier's life was actually like during the Great War.