Royal Engineers Special Brigade

[Terry_Reeves]

Andy

 

Pleased to hear from you again. Thanks for the information.

 

This may help with regard to Capt HB Cooper:

 

2.11.14 - T 2Lt 1/5 RWR

 

1.6.16 - Lt RWR

 

1.2.16 - Adjutant, Depot Special Brigade 

 

18.8.17 Capt RE 

 

MID New Years Honours 1919.

 

TR

Edited 12 May , 2020 by Terry_Reeves

[HolymoleyRE]

4 hours ago, Terry_Reeves said:

Andy

 

Pleased to hear from you again. Thanks for the information.

 

This may help with regard to Capt HB Cooper:

 

2.11.14 - T 2Lt 1/5 RWR

 

1.6.16 - Lt RWR

 

1.2.16 - Adjutant, Depot Special Brigade 

 

18.8.17 Capt RE 

 

MID New Years Honours 1919.

 

TR

Cheers Terry, 

 

The ephemera that I have is some of the smaller items, a Haig Fund poppy of his, some technical drawings & post cards from & to Belgium.  Most notable is one from his co workers at Flour factory in Brussels where he was an Chemist date August 1914 letting him know they had made it safely back to England. 

 

I missed out on Special Brigade Christmas Card and an what is perhaps an important document, the HQ Special Brigade Depot Pay Book from 1916. 

Regards 

Andy 

 

 

[jumbo]

It's nigh 11 years since I posted here (extract in the paragraph below) in search of information regarding my paternal grandfather, John Arthur Morris, who died on the Somme. I rewarded Terry's kindness in pointing my enquiries in the right direction by giving up family history research, but have recently begun again. Here are my grandfather's details, and the little I've discovered since:

 

   He was born in Clerkenwell, London, in 1882; later lived in Walthamstow; worked as a briar pipe polisher; and became a Pioneer with D Special Company (Service No. 206743). He died on 10 Aug 1918, leaving a widow and six children between the ages of four and 12. He is buried in an extension to Montigny Communal Cemetery.

 

  The certificate gives the cause of death as "drowning (accident)", which, amid the overwhelming deliberate carnage all around, is particularly poignant. It's for this reason that I want to know how the accident came about. Since resuming my research, I've downloaded the relevant War Diaries for 1918 on the National Archives website, but with a depressing lack of result. Though the comings and goings of anyone of lieutenant rank or above are clearly detailed, the five-day period starting 10 Aug (the date of his death) are labelled simply: "Training". The only other local reference I've found is that 10 Aug marked the Battle of Amiens -- Amiens being essentially just "down the road" from his burial place. 

   Further enquiries are in hand in an attempt to find a mention in his local paper; meanwhile, can anyone please shed any further light on the matter, even if only to prevent me pursuing wild geese? 

 

 

 

[Terry_Reeves]

Jumbo

 

Welcome back. There would have been a Court of Inquiry. I have checked the war diaries  of HQ Special  Brigade and  HQ Special Companies First Army, but to no avail.  Because of the reorganisation in 1917, Special Brigade companies did not always work to their originally (1916) allotted battalions. To make the system more flexible, the original battalion HQ's were renamed HQ Special Companies First Army etc through to HQ Special Companies 5th Army. That meant the individual companies could move from army to army as required, reporting to whatever Special Company HQ  whose area they were in. I will have look at the other HQ Special Companies and see what I can find.

 

TR

Edited 24 June , 2020 by Terry_Reeves

[jumbo]

Never off duty! Much appreciated, Terry.

 

John M

 

 

[Terry_Reeves]

1 hour ago, jumbo said:

Never off duty! Much appreciated, Terry.

 

John M

 

 

John

 

I have checked all the other sources and nothing shows up. I have a lisy of all Special Brigade operations and the only one on that day was at Lens. Looking at D Company's diary I note that the company HQ was at Behencourt on that day.  Looking at Google maps, just to the north of the village, are a number of lakes and water courses  some of which may well have been there in 1918. Given that the company was stood down from operations on that day and carrying out unit training, I would suggest that this was quite a relaxed period in which men would take the opportunity to go swimming,  hence his drowning.

 

TR

[jumbo]

Can't fault that reasoning, Terry. In view of your earlier comment re a Court of Inquiry, would your enquiries so far suggest to you that one took place, but that its findings are unrecorded or unavailable? It would be sad if this were the end of the road, but thank you for your informed and prompt replies. 

 

John M

 

[JOVE23]

is there not mention of his drowning in his local (to him, ie hometown) paper?

[jumbo]

A check through the British Newspaper Archive drew a blank. My son's waiting for the local record office to re-open to check on the spot, so to speak. In the days when we had proper local papers, of course, you could just walk into their office and order a cutting,.. 

 

[clk]

Hi John,

 

I see from his Soldiers Died record, that your grandfather is shown as 'formerly 23331, Rifle Brigade', and wondered if the records for these 2 near-ish number RE might have any relevance?

 

206721 Edwards

 

 

All images sourced from Findmypast

 

206728 Nicholls

 

 

All images sourced from Findmypast

 

Regards

Chris

[Terry_Reeves]

I'm afraid there is nothing in the above post (record)  that helps. Most infantry transfers, and indeed RFA transfers to the SB, which were quite substantial, were in groups, large and small.  

 

With regards to Boards of Inquiry, the death of each soldier not in action had to be accounted for, so witnesses (if any) would have been called, if nothing else to account for the soldiers movements. The fact that a death certificate had been issued points to all this. It may be that a mention would have been made in his service record, but this no longer exists. As already pointed out, There is nothing in any Special Brigade records unfortunately.

 

TR 

[jumbo]

Thanks, both -- not least to Terry for steering me through the official undergrowth. I imagine some form of explanation will have been sent to my grandmother, but she died in 1976, and it wasn't in any of the papers I eventually inherited. However, a handful of his notes home were, so I have a connection. 

 

John M

 

Edited 25 June , 2020 by jumbo

[clk]

Hi Terry,

 

Thanks for that. I can see from the amount of War Gratuity paid in his Soldiers' Effects record that it implies war service counting from circa July 1916. If the records for 206721 Edwards, and 206728 Nicholls aren't relevant, is there another way we can help John to determine when his grandfather was possibly transferred to the RE (Special Brigade/Company)?

 

Regards

Chris

Edited 25 June , 2020 by clk

[Terry_Reeves]

Chris

 

We are trying to find out how he came to drown.

 

TR

[William Gorman]

On 28/11/2014 at 18:35, tyke52 said:

I wonder if anyone has any information on Pnr. William Gorman, KIA on 1st July 1916 whilst serving with the RE 5th Bn SB and commemorated at Thiepval. Other than this information from SDGW and the CWGC, and his previous service with the Argyll & Sutherlands (MIC) I have been unable to find any further details on him or his service. Additionally, would it have been likely for a pioneer to be issued with binoculars, as my understanding was that such equipment was largely confined to officers.

Many thanks, Martin Pearson

 

IMG_0628.jpg.pdf

[William Gorman]

This is a photo of my grandfather's brother, my great uncle, who served with the 5th Bn Special Brigade Royal Engineers (Army No 130752) He was William Gorman, born in Glasgow and he died on the first day of the Somme 01/07/1916.  His brother John served with the Royal Scots during WW1.  If Tyke52 or anyone else has information about him. ie where he died, I would very much appreciate hearing from you.

Many thanks

William Gorman

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum William. Tyke52 hasn't logged into the forum since last November. Now you have 2 posts, you have  access to private messages, so you can try to contact them that way.

Michelle 

[William Gorman]

Many thanks for your response

Regards

William

[MaxD]

LLT tells us that 5th Battalion Special Brigade Royal Engineers had 3 companies under 4th Army and one with 3rd Army.  Both armies were involved on 1 July 1916.  Others more expert than I may be able to suggest where each was operating.  Good luck!

 

Max

[Terry_Reeves]

Martin

All four companies of 5th Bn  were in action on 1.7.16 firing smoke barrages from their 4 inch Stokes Mortars. 

 

Casualty  list summaries:

 

No 1 Coy - KIA 2 Officers, 3 other ranks (OR's).  Wounded 1 officer and 18 OR. Believed kia or missing, 1 OR.

 

No 2 Coy - KIA 11 OR. Wounded 18 OR.

 

No 3 Coy - Wounded 3 OR

 

No 4 Coy - KIA 1 OR. Wounded 1 Officer and 22 OR. Shell shock, 1 Officer. Missing 1 OR.

 

It is possible that your  man was one of those kia or believed missing or  missing,  from No 1 Coy or No 4 Company respectively  given that he is on the Theipval Memorial.

 

TR

 

 

 

TR

Edited 4 July , 2020 by Terry_Reeves

[RowlandW]

I am researching my late uncle Pioneer 196019 Owen Thomas Hughes Williams RE but have many gaps. My research started with a letter 23 July 1917 to my grandfather written by 2^nd Cpl. Archie Forrest 129895 “P” Special Company RE who was k.i.a. about 1 month later. In the letter he laments he is missing his ‘close chum’ (my uncle). He mentions a Pnr. Bailey has died – I think this may be Pioneer 99386 James Bailey who died of injuries sustained on 14 July 1917 when a shell burst in the midst of a party possibly near Austerlitz Farm dump seriously injuring 5 men during preparations for a Livens discharge just north of Ypres. I rather suspect this is the incident when my uncle received a shrapnel head injury. He was invalided back to England and survived. Archie also mentions ‘Mr Clayton our Rev. friend …’ referring to Tubby Clayton of Talbot House, Poperinghe. From War Diaries, I am gradually piecing together “P” Special Company’s movements during 1916 and 1917 but without my uncle’s service record card (believed amongst those destroyed in WW2), my two main gaps are his recruitment and his injury and treatment.

It seems he was at Birmingham University when he was recruited. They have this record: O.T.H. Williams, Arts 1915, Pioneer Chemist, Res. Coy., Spec. Brig. R.E. He passed Chemistry as one of a number of general subjects in his Welsh Board Examinations before taking an Arts degree studying Greek and Latin. The phrase ‘Pioneer Chemist’ appears in the War Diaries of the Special Brigade Depot describing some of the drafts from England during early 1916. I suspect he may have enlisted late 1915 when he was aged 19 but was held in reserve until the expansion at the beginning of 1916. His rank was Pioneer not Corporal and with so many corporals from the original 186-189 companies there was no chance of promotion! Maybe he was not ‘the type’; he was a kind, gentle academic.

So far I have not come across any medical record. All I know from the family is that he was treated at a hospital near Erith in Kent. His (2) pension cards don’t help.

Any assistance on my gaps will be very welcome.

I have much more on my uncle’s friend Archie and his connection with Talbot House. There are other possible “P” Special Company names in the pipeline.

[Terry_Reeves]

RowlandW

 

Thanks for your post. I have a data base of Special Brigade men, although it is not complete. I will get back to to you with my findings.

 

TR

[Terry_Reeves]

Some P Company men:

 

147516   William H Finnimore

155471   Francis Hayward Ayden

159353  Malcom McDougal

183922  Frank William Radford Brown

192989  William Thomas Hugill

214395  Christopher Grieves

214782  George Arthur Rowe

220241  Frank Stanley Horden Rawling 

220372 Bertram Owen Mitchell

120521  Cyril Jack Eastland

120653 Thomas Bibby

128389  Edward John Oates

129580  Walter Mackrell

129947 James Harvey Aspinal

130570  John Robert Roberts

130571  Bert Reynods

147038 Peter Webster

 

TR

 

[RowlandW]

Thanks Terry for the list which I started to investigate but got no further that the first name, 147516 William H Finnemore. This was because he sadly was one of those killed on 6 May 1917 at Ecoust-St-Mien while unloading explosives prior to the attack on Bullecourt. A number of wagons arrived with charges and bombs about to be unloaded by parties from “G”, “P” and “Z” Companies. A rogue German shell set off the explosives causing substantial casualties – eighty-eight in all including a number from 7^th and 58^th Division Ammunition Columns. Most of the casualties were caused by the explosion but many more by German artillery which opened up on the scene. “P” Company came off worst with 21 killed and 14 wounded.

Was my uncle there? I don’t know. It is difficult to imagine what the survivors had to deal with but doubtless the whole Brigade would have been severely shaken by events.

In trying to pin down when my uncle Pnr. 196019 Owen T H Williams enlisted, other close service numbers from 196000 appear to have been allocated in December 1915 but a number of the men were not mobilised until the following October. Was there a Reserve Company in England which held and trained recruits untill needed? How did it work?

[Terry_Reeves]

RowaldW

 

Yes, the incident was the single biggest single loss of life for the brigade. I have visited their graves at Beaulencourt Britsh Cemetery, Ligny Thilloy. The site is in a cutting near the hamlet of Noreuil. 

 

Just out of interest, G Company was tasked to defend Vaulx-Vraucourt on 21 March 1918, just a ten minute drive away. Their story is quite interesting on that day.

 

There was a reserve depot in the UK formed in July 1916 at Withnoe in Devon,. It consisted of "A" Reserve Company and "B" Reserve Company. The former was essentially a reception company and the latter a holding and drafting company. It was used to receive  SB men returning from the BEF and  dispatching the same.  Men who had been wounded, but in hospital in various parts of the UK, were also on their books for administrative purposes and would pass through there on the way back to the BEF. It was also used for men who were being posted to the RE Porton Down Experimental Establishment. In early 1918 it moved to South Raglan Barracks at Devonport, now long demolished. The only reminder of its existence is the entrance archway.

There was also a Special Brigade depot in France at Helfaut, some  4 mile south of St Omer. From here reinforcements would be sent to join their units.

 

 

TR

Edited 19 November , 2020 by Terry_Reeves