brassards, armlets, armbands

[FROGSMILE]

Not sure if you already have a record of this one, as worn by a member of 746 Area Employment Co., Labour Corps - it appears to say 'TRA...' (presumably 'TRAIN'?).

Edit: for some reason I just can't get a clearer image, the lettering shows up better on the original.

one.jpg

Any idea what this one is? A rather slim apparently blank brassard, worn on the left arm by a member of the QMG's staff in East Africa:

two.jpg

Or this one.....? Worn on the R arm by a Major General in France in 1918:

four.jpg

Or this....? it's being worn by 5 men from different regiments who may or may not be attached to a hospital:

six.jpg

Coloured armbands were used in a lot of hospitals to signify the different and progressive stages of recovery by the wounded and if that is the case here it must signify the final stage before discharge, as the men are not wearing hospital blue. I suppose they might also have been orderlies, but as one is a WOII that seems less likely. Armlets were also used when the men in hospital blue wore greatcoats in cold weather.

I second Grumpys congratulations for this superb collection of armlet images and also thank you for posting them.

[FROGSMILE]

Bored? No chance.

here's a thought. I have never worn a brassard cum armband, but I always envisage such a band slipping down the arm.

As for those worn near the cuff, any sudden gesture and my RMP or whatever would go flying!

Has anyone any relevant experience please?

I have seen two, contempory to WW1 methods, a large nappy pin (with the sliding guard) and a button or two stitched on the cuff with button holes on the reverse layer of the armlet / brassard. Also hooks and eyes in a similar manner.

[4thGordons]

I must admit I have not read through all 11 pages but I did a search in the thread for Prisoner and POW, turning up nothing so....

Has anyone mentioned the brassard/armband that often shows up in POW photos?

What colour were these?

Chris

[Andrew Upton]

I must admit I have not read through all 11 pages but I did a search in the thread for Prisoner and POW, turning up nothing so....

Has anyone mentioned the brassard/armband that often shows up in POW photos?

What colour were these?

POW1.jpg POW2.jpg

Chris

It's not a brassard Chris - it's a physically seperate panel of different coloured material (usually a sort of brownish-red) inset into the sleeve. They also did it with the trousers (note the "stripe" visible in both pictures). Just like their more commonly seen WW2 PoW counterparts, it served to make the uniform both more highly visible/distinctive and at the same time less easy to modify to resemble civilian style clothing to use in escapes.

[4thGordons]

Thanks - stand corrected and thanks for the information Andrew.

(Grumpy if this is a distraction I will happily delete the post)

Chris

[headgardener]

Funnily enough, I'd pulled out some photos of POW's. A couple of comments relating to the photos that Chris posted....

Firstly, as Andrew points out, the 'brassard' is actually a section of cloth replacing a section of the sleeve. Perhaps best illustrated by this photo (you can see the lines where the sleeve has been cut):

As such, it formed an integral part of the sleeve (again, the lines of the cut sleeve are just about visible):

This alteration was only made to OR's tunics - officers generally wore their own uniform without alteration. A similar strip of fabric was placed along the outer leg of the man's trousers, and his cap-band (visible in the 2nd photo in Chris' post. Andrew - do you have a reference for your comment about the fabric being reddish-brown? I'd always understood that it was a much deeper red (more like pillar-box red, or maroon).

Secondly, POW's did sometimes wear brassards. There were 2 types; the standard 'Red Cross' brassard was worn by POW's working in the camp hospital or infirmary, the other type of brassard was issued by the camp authorities to men working outside the camp. They were of varying designs, but generally had the name & number of the camp or the name of the working party stamped on it. The following pic shows 3 Brits working for the notorious EK1 (Englaender Kommando 1) from Friedrichsfeld which was employed behind the German front line. The men in the centre and on the right are wearing brassards with 'EK1' stamped on them (the panel of fabric that looks like a brassard is also visible on the left arm of the man on the right - with the Rifle Brigade cap badge):

Andrew Chris! - I also have an original copy of the photo showing the Gordon's POW wearing the SD-style cap. Let me know if you need any details about him....!

[4thGordons]

Andrew - I also have an original copy of the photo showing the Gordon's POW wearing the SD-style cap. Let me know if you need any details about him....!

I (Chris) would be interested! Which photo are you referring to here? I have original copies of both of the pics I posted and I know who the chap on the right is and a few details about him from CarolyM.

[Muerrisch]

Thanks - stand corrected and thanks for the information Andrew.

(Grumpy if this is a distraction I will happily delete the post)

Chris

No No! Please leave it in ........ because the PoW strips could be mistaken for armbands they are legit.

"Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck ................!"

[Andrew Upton]

Andrew - do you have a reference for your comment about the fabric being reddish-brown? I'd always understood that it was a much deeper red (more like pillar-box red, or maroon).

I used to think that it was a bright red as well, which might have been influenced by more commonly seen images of WW2 PoW clothing, but the Australian War Memorial online collection has a number of very good photographs of a variety of original WW1 PoW kit issued to British or Australian soldiers. Even the not particularly worn or faded items seem to have the same reddish-brown coloured material inset into them:

Tunics:

http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/RELAWM04522.002/

http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/REL25536/

Greatcoat:

http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/RELAWM05406.004/

Cap:

http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/RELAWM05406.003/

Trousers:

http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/RELAWM05406.002/

[wbremner]

Base Camp Instructors – yellow, with or without crossed machine-guns

An example of the yellow Instructor brassard in one of Mackain's "At the Base" postcards:

The instructors at the infamous Etaples sand hills were known as Canaries because of their penetrating voices and their yellow colored “brassards” or armbands.

[FROGSMILE]

Maybe everyone's got a bit bored with this now, but here's one more - it's a nice shot of a 'GR' brassard worn by a member of (I think) the City of London Volunteer Force:

eight.jpg

He is Volunteer Training Corps, the Home Guard of WW1. There is a lot in the forum about them and member Graham Stewart is expert in their history. I am sure that he will be interested to see this photo.

[headgardener]

He is Volunteer Training Corps, the Home Guard of WW1. There is a lot in the forum about them and member Graham Stewart is expert in their history. I am sure that he will be interested to see this photo.

Ah, yes - of course...! If he was WW1 VF then he'd be wearing a GS badge and have something a bit more like usual SD.

[headgardener]

Here's a couple more.

This one is a small clip from a large group of RA men on the steps of a chateau (or similar) in France, dated July 1918. One of the men in the group is confirmed RGA, but I simple don't know anything about the group as a whole. I imagine that the men with brassards (sorry - I can't get a better image, I'm afraid) are either instructors at an artillery school or are on the staff of a formation of some kind. The brassard appears to be plain with patch in the middle of it showing a cannon. The patch itself appears to be be dark with lighter bands on top and bottom.

Here's a young artillery officer wearing a very narrow brassard. I have no idea what it represents, although it looks almost identical to the one worn by the South African officer that I posted a few days ago (on the previous page to this one, I think?).

Interesting to hear what Frogsmile said about different coloured brassards being worn by convalescents at different stages of their recovery. I've only ever seen them being worn with great-coats by men who are outside hospital grounds, and had assumed that they were designed to indicate that he was convalescent and was therefore improperly dressed. Some examples:

This one illustrates the problems with securing the brassard - in this case it's fallen down around his wrist:

[headgardener]

In case the interest is in WW1 brassards generally, here's an example of one worn by a Special Constable employed as a 'gate guard', and dated August 1917.

[Muerrisch]

#269 looks to be the typical jobsworth.

"I don't care if you've got a pass signed by Kitchener AND the King, I got my orders mate!"

[headgardener]

Further to my post #261 (regarding POW's and brassards). POW's would occasionally wear brassards. I posted one previously showing some British prisoners employed with a working party outside their camp, and here are a couple more examples:

This image shows a standard Red Cross brassard being worn by a British POW who was employed at the 'English infirmary' at Cassel POW camp (it also demonstrates the coloured strip down the outside leg of his trousers).

Not all the orderlies at the infirmary were RAMC, nor were they all British, as can be seen in this image which includes 4 Brits (none of whom are wearing RAMC cap-badges) accompanied by some Russian and French orderlies. Some of the Red Cross brassards appear to be official (like the one worn by the man in the previous image), while some are clearly makeshift.

We previously discussed the fact that the 'brassard' seen on the left sleeves of POW's is, in fact, a strip of material sewn into the sleeve. This image (taken at Sennelager in July 1915) appears to show that in this instance the man in question was indeed wearing a brassard:

[headgardener]

In post #261 I made the following comment regarding the strip of material sewn into the left-hand sleeves of POW's tunics:

This alteration was only made to OR's tunics - officers generally wore their own uniform without alteration.

I then had a nagging suspicion that I had seen an officer wearing a uniform that had been altered in this way. A trawl through my collection revealed that I was right, and here it is (taken in Saarlouis camp in April 1918):

[headgardener]

I used to think that it was a bright red as well, which might have been influenced by more commonly seen images of WW2 PoW clothing, but the Australian War Memorial online collection has a number of very good photographs of a variety of original WW1 PoW kit issued to British or Australian soldiers. Even the not particularly worn or faded items seem to have the same reddish-brown coloured material inset into them:

Andrew - thanks very much for posting this. Very interesting to see those examples 'in the flesh' after having seen so many B&W photos of them.

[tocemma]

I used to think that it was a bright red as well, which might have been influenced by more commonly seen images of WW2 PoW clothing, but the Australian War Memorial online collection has a number of very good photographs of a variety of original WW1 PoW kit issued to British or Australian soldiers. Even the not particularly worn or faded items seem to have the same reddish-brown coloured material inset into them:

I've had in my collection a simplified jacket which had been dyed dark blue - the effect of which was to actually make it a dark blue green. It had a mid brown band set into the left sleeve and a heavy blanket lining added. Early on, damaged and part worn clothing (and redundant Kitchener blue) was repaired, modified and sent for the use of POWs. An odd mish-mash of pre war dark blue caps with patent peaks also seem to have been issued. I've even noted Kitchener blue jackets with cut-away skirts used by highlanders in POW photographs.

Later in the war clothing was specifically manufactured for this purpose as in Andrew's links to the AWM. The IWM has examples, most likely visible on their website, of POW clothing. From memory I have seen a jacket and trousers on display, and a Soft Service Dress Cap (Trench Cap) They also have an as new example of a Winter Service Dress Cap (Gor Blimey) in their reserve collection. This last item was manufactured in dark blue wool with a brown band. From memory it had a 1918 dated paper size label inside.

Regards

Tocemma

[headgardener]

I've had in my collection a simplified jacket which had been dyed dark blue - the effect of which was to actually make it a dark blue green. It had a mid brown band set into the left sleeve and a heavy blanket lining added. Early on, damaged and part worn clothing (and redundant Kitchener blue) was repaired, modified and sent for the use of POWs. An odd mish-mash of pre war dark blue caps with patent peaks also seem to have been issued. I've even noted Kitchener blue jackets with cut-away skirts used by highlanders in POW photographs.

Later in the war clothing was specifically manufactured for this purpose as in Andrew's links to the AWM. The IWM has examples, most likely visible on their website, of POW clothing. From memory I have seen a jacket and trousers on display, and a Soft Service Dress Cap (Trench Cap) They also have an as new example of a Winter Service Dress Cap (Gor Blimey) in their reserve collection. This last item was manufactured in dark blue wool with a brown band. From memory it had a 1918 dated paper size label inside.

I have a feeling that some of the uniforms seen in British POW photos are actually of foreign manufacture (maybe inherited from other prisoners at the camp, or perhaps supplied by the Red Cross?). Take a look at the collars, epaulettes and slanted pockets on the uniform of the seated man (in the first pic of post #261) - they have a distinctly european look to them. Sometimes the buttons on these jackets are large and very plain (unlike British regimental or GS buttons).

[headgardener]

#269 looks to be the typical jobsworth.

"I don't care if you've got a pass signed by Kitchener AND the King, I got my orders mate!"

He's certainly pulling a very authoritative pose with his hand on his revolver.......

[tocemma]

I don't think that the captors were obliged to provide clothing for POWs. I know that large quantities of clothing were supplied via the Red Cross. I suspect what we are seeing are all sorts of recycled clothing produced in the UK from a number of sources. Interesting that the British jackets seem to largely follow a four pocket layout. I doubt the Germans or anyone else would have taken the trouble.

The fact that there are pattern sealed items and converted service dress items would seem to indicate otherwise. I don't know for certain however as it is a little out of my collecting interest. I can only comment on what I've observed.

Regards

Tocemma

[FROGSMILE]

Ah, yes - of course...! If he was WW1 VF then he'd be wearing a GS badge and have something a bit more like usual SD.

Are you thinking of the Royal Defence Corps, who wore SD and general service cap badges. The VTC morphed into the WW1 VB's and wore the insignia of their regular parent regiments.

I don't think that the captors were obliged to provide clothing for POWs. I know that large quantities of clothing were supplied via the Red Cross. I suspect what we are seeing are all sorts of recycled clothing produced in the UK from a number of sources. Interesting that the British jackets seem to largely follow a four pocket layout. I doubt the Germans or anyone else would have taken the trouble.

The fact that there are pattern sealed items and converted service dress items would seem to indicate otherwise. I don't know for certain however as it is a little out of my collecting interest. I can only comment on what I've observed.

Regards

Tocemma

Yes I too have been very intrigued by the different uniforms seen on PoWs in Germany, it would be interesting to know something definitive about their provenance.

[FROGSMILE]

Here's a couple more.

This one is a small clip from a large group of RA men on the steps of a chateau (or similar) in France, dated July 1918. One of the men in the group is confirmed RGA, but I simple don't know anything about the group as a whole. I imagine that the men with brassards (sorry - I can't get a better image, I'm afraid) are either instructors at an artillery school or are on the staff of a formation of some kind. The brassard appears to be plain with patch in the middle of it showing a cannon. The patch itself appears to be be dark with lighter bands on top and bottom.

one.jpg

Here's a young artillery officer wearing a very narrow brassard. I have no idea what it represents, although it looks almost identical to the one worn by the South African officer that I posted a few days ago (on the previous page to this one, I think?).

Interesting to hear what Frogsmile said about different coloured brassards being worn by convalescents at different stages of their recovery. I've only ever seen them being worn with great-coats by men who are outside hospital grounds, and had assumed that they were designed to indicate that he was convalescent and was therefore improperly dressed. Some examples:

This one illustrates the problems with securing the brassard - in this case it's fallen down around his wrist:

The gunner officer brassard within the group photo is probably a member of the "gunnery staff", as the brass gun was usually used as a part of their insignia.

The arm bands on the greatcoats were indeed merely to show that the wearer was underneath in hospital blue. I read about the various coloured bands being used on hospital blues in some larger hospitals at home to indicate the stage of recovery. It certainly does not seem to have been universal. Read here: http://blog.wellcomelibrary.org/2010/06/the-convalescent-blues-in-frederick-cayley-robinsons-acts-of-mercy/

[headgardener]

Are you thinking of the Royal Defence Corps, who wore SD and general service cap badges. The VTC morphed into the WW1 VB's and wore the insignia of their regular parent regiments.

No, I understood that the VTC officially became known as the Volunteer Force from about late-1916 or so, and they began wearing SD with GS cap-badges. The officers wore uniforms like their regular counterparts, but with 'V' collar-badges and GS cap-badges.