Muerrisch Posted 15 January , 2006 Share Posted 15 January , 2006 Having seen the splendid photo in RE Gas Brassard question I am prompted to ask if we could get a collection of photos and IDs together? My notebooks will supply a fair number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john in minnesota Posted 15 January , 2006 Share Posted 15 January , 2006 you can do better than that! A great resource - thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 16 January , 2006 Share Posted 16 January , 2006 LB 1418, Nice notes. Here is list I started compiling awhile ago. All are 1914 through 1919. This is not complete and I have lots more pages to go through. Hope you can collect over 96 photos. All have GRO's and RACD patterns references and most have multiple primary references. 1 General HQ Red and blue BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 2 Army HQ Red Black Red BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 3 Army Corps HQ Red White Red BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 4 Corps MG Ofc. Red White Red with metal MGC insignia BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 5 RFC HQ Light blue edged with dark blue, red stripe running lengthwise across entire centre, RFC in drk blue ltrs BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 6 Cavalry Divisional HQ Red; CD in black letters BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 7 Div HQ Red BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 8 Tank Corps Staff----Tank HQ Blue band w/red edging, and w/ an emblem of a tank in white BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 9 Tank Bde Blue band w/ an emblem of a tank in white BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 10 Inf Bde Blue BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 11 Cav. Div Art HQ Red; w embrodiered gun; CD in black letters BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 12 Div Art HQ Red; w embrodiered gun BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 13 GHQ Troops HQ Dark Blue, GHQ trps in Red ltrs BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 14 LoC Red; L. of C. in black letters BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 15 P.M. and APM Black; PM or APM in red letters BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 16 Signal Service White over blue BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 17 Military Police Black; MP in red letters BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 18 Railway transport officer White; RTO in black ltrs BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 19 Embarkation Staff White, Embark, in blk ltrs BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 20 IWT White w/blue anchor BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 21 Servants to Military attaches Yellow BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 22 Stretcher Bearers White; SB in red letters BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 23 All Medical personnel White, Red cross BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 24 Press Correspondents and servants Green BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 25 Train conducting officers Red, TCO in blk ltrs BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 26 Train conductors Brown canvas; Train Conductor in Blk letters BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 27 Checkers White, Checker inblk ltrs BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 28 Town Majors Khaki with "Town Major" in red BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 29 Traffic control Black w/ TC in red BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 28 Agents de Police Special Lilac with APS in black BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 31 Instructors of MG, Lewis schools and MGC Base depot Plain Yellow; MGC badge may be worn BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 32 HQ, Corps Heavy Art. Blue w embroidered gun BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 33 Special Bde Red, white and Green in vertical stripes BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 34 Area Commandants Blue "Area Commandants" in red BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 35 Billet and camp Wardens Yellow, Warden in black BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 36 Corps Chem Ofc Green over black BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 37 Div Gas Off Green over black BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 38 NCO instructors of Div Gas school Green over black BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 39 Officers and Interprtors of the Brit Mission attached to PEF Gren, red, green BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 40 Camo Ofc att. To Corps Green Yellow, brown BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 41 Salvage Corps Khaki , Salvage in red BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 42 Civilian Platelayers White, RY in blk BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 43 Intelligence Police Blue IC in green BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 44 Belgian Civ Rly Staff Green, crossed pick and shovel in red BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 45 Guides Blue, Guide in Blk BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 46 Baggage men Red Baggage in Blk BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 47 Leave boat area Red, L in blk BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 48 NCO and area intelligence Corps Blue IC in green BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 49 WO, NCO and men of dock dirct. White, D in blk BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 50 Senties on Examining posts Black Ex. P in Red BEF GRO' to Jan 1918 51 Dir Light Rly Blue, LR in Red GRO 2242 BEF 52 Dir Roads Blue, R in red GRO 2242 BEF 53 Dir. Docks Blue, D in Red GRO 2242 BEF 54 Dir Trans. Blue, TN in Red GRO 2242 BEF 55 Dir IWT Blue IWT in Red GRO 2242 BEF 56 Broad Guage Rly Blue, RC in Red GRO 2242 BEF 57 Ass. Mil Leave Ofc Red, ALMO in Blk RACD patterns 58 Mombassa Red RACD patterns 59 Interpretor LCL Blue, Interpretor Chinese Labour Corps in yellow RACD patterns 60 Draft Conducting Ofc White, DCO in blk RACD patterns 61 Vol For. & Emergency Trans Drivers--1915 Red, GR in Blk RACD patterns 62 Vol For. & Emergency Trans Drivers 1917 Red, GR w crown in Blk RACD patterns 63 Fire Police Drab, P in red RACD patterns 64 Derby scheme Drab, Red crown RACD patterns 65 Rly Trans Orderlies Red, RL in Blk RACD patterns 66 Transport staff White, ADJT in blk RACD patterns 67 Transport staff White, SM in Blk RACD patterns 68 Transport staff White, Duty in Blk RACD patterns 69 Transport staff White, D in blk RACD patterns 70 Broad Guage Rly Purple, RC in Red RACD patterns 71 Regimental Police Black, RP in Red RACD patterns 72 Regimental Police Black RMP in Red RACD patterns 73 Water Police Black, WP in red RACD patterns 74 Traffic control Black, w/Traffic in red RACD patterns 75 Inspect Ammo Depot Drab, I (did not record ltr color) RACD patterns 76 Principal Foreman Drab, PF (did not record ltr color) RACD patterns 77 Light Rly Drab, LR Dist Supt (did not record ltr color) RACD patterns 78 Light Rly Drab, LR Insp (did not record ltr color) RACD patterns 79 Light Rly Drab, LR Yarder (did not record ltr color) RACD patterns 80 Light Rly Drab, LR Control (did not record ltr color) RACD patterns 81 Light Rly Drab, LR Guard (did not record ltr color) RACD patterns 82 Inland Water & Docks White, IW&D in Blue RACD patterns 83 Disabled men White, w/crown Red RACD patterns 84 Interpretor Salon. & Egypt Green and White RACD patterns 85 Discharged Soldiers in Hosp. Red, Whit, Blue RACD patterns 86 Guides 1914 - 1916 Green with Royal Arms RACD patterns 87 Recruiting Officers Blue, Recruiting in Red RACD patterns 88 Dys. Hosp. Red RACD patterns 89 Convesc. Patients Green RACD patterns 90 Military Police through 1916 Red, MP in black RACD patterns 91 Army Postal Service Drab, Crown with APS in Red RACD patterns 92 Santary Sections in France 1917 Yellow, SAN in Red RACD patterns 93 Employees at Ammo Depot Blue, AOD in Red RACD patterns 94 Military Control Ofc Blue, MCO in Red. RACD patterns 95 Garrison MPs GMP (need to look up patterns) PVCN 15 96 Hospital HP (need to look up patterns) PVCN 15 Joe Sweeney Posting from a spreadsheet leaves a lot to be desired Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesmessenger Posted 16 January , 2006 Share Posted 16 January , 2006 LB In addition to Joe’s excellent list here are some gleaned from WO 359/16 (Army Clothing Department Register of Changes 1915-1921): Cav Bde – Blue with CB in black Corps Heavy Arty – Blue with embroidered gun Town Majors – this document states that the brassard was black (as opposed to Joe’s khaki) with Town Major in red letters Railhead officers – Bright green Cadets at GHQ Cadet School – Green with Cadet School in silver Otherwise the document correlates extremely well with Joe’s information (I suspect he may have consulted it). Charles M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 17 January , 2006 Author Share Posted 17 January , 2006 Many thanks: now all I have to do is illustrate them and try to post them. Thats what retirement is for I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 17 January , 2006 Share Posted 17 January , 2006 Charles, You got it WO359/16 is where I'm getting most of the info. I only started putting the spreadsheet together as a quick reference guide for myself and I never did a good comprehensive once through just looking for armlets. I never went in and did any deconflicts or notes when the armlets were approved and then obsoleted (nor how many varieties of each there were). LB 1418, If you have any questions let me know I actually have a complete copy of 359/16 so I can go back in to see additional info. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 17 January , 2006 Author Share Posted 17 January , 2006 Joe and Charles, many thanks. I am starting to draft illustrations, if that seems sensible. I can start 1905, with the RAMC brassard predating that of course. Queries will naturally arise, and I will post them here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 17 January , 2006 Share Posted 17 January , 2006 Nice pic of an 'armband' - 36th Div. Signals RE I believe .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 19 January , 2006 Share Posted 19 January , 2006 I'll post a few brassard scans once the technology is fixed... ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 19 January , 2006 Share Posted 19 January , 2006 Army Headquarters... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 19 January , 2006 Share Posted 19 January , 2006 Army Corps Headquarters. (This and the Army HQ Brassard were worn by Capt. Kennedy originally of the East Surries) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 19 January , 2006 Share Posted 19 January , 2006 Stretcher Bearer (this one belonged to an 11/Suffolk soldier)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 19 January , 2006 Share Posted 19 January , 2006 These Red Cross armbands come in all shapes and sizes but this one belonged to a VAD and is numbered '741' - West Lancashire Voluntary Aid and dated 26.10.16... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 19 January , 2006 Share Posted 19 January , 2006 The VTC - hence their nickname, 'Gorgeous Wrecks". This brassard belonged to Charles J. Buck, D Coy, Willesden Battalion VTC/6th Volunteer Battalion, Middlesex Regiment; later Sgt C.J.Buck, 20th Btn MGC... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 19 January , 2006 Share Posted 19 January , 2006 Some confusion with this one; some say that this was a later VTC brassard and some say it was a variation of the Derby Scheme one (see next post). Can anyone say for sure? The Derby Scheme... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 19 January , 2006 Share Posted 19 January , 2006 The joys of modern technology... the Derby Scheme armband is the one on the left above - the technology added it to the previous post! Signals... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 19 January , 2006 Share Posted 19 January , 2006 According to the IWM, this red-crown-on-a-white-brassard was worn by convalescent Officers... I hope this is what you wanted! Cheers, Taff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 19 January , 2006 Author Share Posted 19 January , 2006 Taff: these are great: once I can post, I will start to put up my sketches of armbands from the lists and descriptions I have received. I can add RP and one or two others in the flesh. I can and will be able to illustrate up to about 1937 .............. notional sketches, but an aid to recognition etc in old photos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 20 January , 2006 Share Posted 20 January , 2006 Taff, Great photos of the armlets. The White with Red crown is simply descibed in the RACD ledgers as "Disabledmen". Having never seen an actual example I had always assumed that to be just like the Derby armlet with cut-out crown. But seeing the quality of the red crown on yours it looks too good for OR's. LB14/18, Great effort. This has been neede for sometime. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 20 January , 2006 Share Posted 20 January , 2006 Chief Chum, Regarding identification of the two khaki armbands. The one to the left is the "Derby Scheme" armband and the one to the right is the armband of the "Volunteer Force" which replaced the Volunteer Training Corps in July 1916 and so a new khaki armband was issued. It can also be found in grey-green the colour of the VTC's original uniforms. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 20 January , 2006 Share Posted 20 January , 2006 Thanks Graham, That's great to know at last! Do you have a copy of your VTC article? I would be very interested to read it. I have an Original Suffolk VTC cap, tunic and waistbelt and quite a few other VTC and Volunteer odds and end including a marksmans badge but I would be interested in finding out more. Joe and LB, Glad to be able to help. There is an example of the white armband with the red crown on display at the IWM labelled as a convalescent Officers brassard but I have no other source of information for it. Grovetown, Nice armband. I have a picture of a group of 2/Suffolk men taken in 1918 and several have bands around their cuffs like yours but are obviously in different colors presumably for different companies? Cheers, Taff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 20 January , 2006 Share Posted 20 January , 2006 Taff, Send an e.mail address for VTC article. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 20 January , 2006 Share Posted 20 January , 2006 Nice armband. I have a picture of a group of 2/Suffolk men taken in 1918 and several have bands around their cuffs like yours but are obviously in different colors presumably for different companies?Taff, thanks: all compliments gladly accepted. The colour isn't coy specific, it's role specific. Red: Runner; Green: Scout (sniper); Blue: Sigs; Yellow: Carrying Party (whatever that might be); and Khaki with 'Salvage': er, Salvage Party. This is taken from Brassey's Bull book, and is attributed to The Training and Employment of Divisions, January 1918. For reasons various, this tunic is of the February 1918 forward period. Best wishes, Grovetown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 21 January , 2006 Share Posted 21 January , 2006 Thanks for that! How is the brassard fixed to the cuff? I have always assumed it would have hooks of some kind like the Regimental Police ones which were then unhooked and taken off when not on duty... Cheers, Taff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 21 January , 2006 Share Posted 21 January , 2006 Doh! I see that you said it was tacked to the tunic. I'm surprised the coloured band wasn't just sewn straight on the cuff without the buckle if it wasn't intended to be taken off... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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